Gunman targeting Jews kills 11 in Pittsburgh synagogue

[mtls2005]

While it didn't make the national or international news in any big way, there was a hate-crime shooting (51-year-old white supremacist male, shocker) last week, on Wednesday, in Louisville. KY, which could have been equally as horrific.

 

He tried to gain entry to a predominantly black church, unsuccessfully, so then went on to the local supermarket where he sought out, and murdered two 60-ish black citizens. No clue what is plan was re: the church? 

 

 

Kroger shooting: Chaos, heroism and the search for a scared young boy

 

A doting, retired grandfather, Stallard loved to pick up his grandson from Barret Traditional Middle School. They’d often go to Chick-fil-A, but on Wednesday, they found themselves in the school-and-office aisle hunting for poster board for a project.

 

POW. Pow-pow-pow-pow.    

 

Without warning, 51-year-old Gregory Bush approached Stallard from behind, raised a handgun and shot Stallard in the back of the head, police say. Then he pulled the trigger again and again.

 

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2018/10/27/louisville-kroger-shooting-fear-chaos-bravery-moments-after/1766481002/

 

 

Black church member: 'Act of God' kept door closed to Kroger shooting suspect

 

He said there were eight to 10 staff members in the church when Bush tried to barge in, and he's troubled by what could have happened.

 

"My mind takes me to a place where it shouldn't be," Williams said. "But I believe that he came here to do us harm."

 

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2018/10/26/black-church-staffer-narrowly-missed-louisville-kroger-shooting-suspect/1775888002/

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by mtls2005

[Jingthing]

If Trump wasn't elected as President this tragedy would probably never had happened. Think about that for a while. 
 

Probably not. He has normalized and mainstreamed white nationalism and antisemitic conspiracy theories in the USA.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Thakkar]

“The apparent spark for the worst anti-Semitic massacre in American history was a racist hoax inflamed by a U.S. president seeking to help his party win a midterm election. There is no political gesture, no public statement, and no alteration in rhetoric or behavior that will change this fact.”

 

The entire short piece is worth a read:

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/574213/#click=https://t.co/l6Tig7UZ69

[Berkshire]

Man, what a true coward this guy is.  He goes into a synagogue and shoots up 11 defenseless elderly worshipers.  Lordy...

 

Joyce Feinberg, 75

Richard Gottfried, 65

Rose Mallinger, 97

Jerry Rabinowitz, 66

Brothers Cecil, 59, and David Rosenthal, 54

Husband and wife Sylvan, 86, and Bernice Simon, 84

Daniel Stein, 71

Melvin Wax, 88

Irving Youngner, 69

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pittsburgh-synagogue-shooting-victims-2-134502378.html

 

[Srikcir]

President Trump is not welcome to visit Pittsburgh unless he denounces white nationalism and “stops targeting and endangering all minorities,” a group of the city’s Jewish leaders:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/10/28/pittsburgh-jewish-leaders-tell-trump-to-stay-away-unless-he-denounces-white-nationalism/23574390/

• “For the past three years your words and your policies have emboldened a growing white nationalist movement,” said a letter signed by 11 Jewish leaders on the website of Bend the Arc, a progressive Jewish organization.
• “You yourself called the murderer evil, but yesterday’s violence is the direct culmination of your influence,” the letter said. 

 

[mtls2005]

I just can't imagine why neo-nazis feel emboldened, it seems like only last August (2017) these "good people" were marching in Charlottesville, VA...

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by mtls2005

[wayned]

Maybe there should be a national referendum teling him that he is not welcome in many more places.

[Jingthing]

Maybe there should be a national referendum teling him that he is not welcome in many more places.

He already knows he is not welcome in areas of the nation that most Americans live. Most big cities and most near suburbs. It's no mystery why his "nationalist" rallies are in small towns and rural areas. He doesn't want to go to Pittsburgh either. He said as much!

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mtls2005]

Looks like Fox News' Lou Dobbs might be on the precipice...he deleted conspiracy-fueled tweet re: pipe bombs and Soros, then this anti-semitic diatribe, aired live Thursday, then re-aired AFTER the Tree of Life Synagogue shooting.

 

{ I actually think there is some benefit to these closet racists and anti-semites feeling emboldened to come out from under their robes, or from behind their anchor desks, and expose themselves for the truly horrible people they truly are. }

 

Fox Executive Condemns Remarks by Guest on Lou Dobbs Show

 

A Fox Business Network executive on Sunday condemned the appearance of a guest on one of the network’s leading shows, “Lou Dobbs Tonight,” after the guest’s remarks were linked to anti-Semitism.

 

The guest, Chris Farrell of the conservative Washington group Judicial Watch, claimed the caravan of refugees now traveling in southern Mexico was funded by George Soros, a billionaire philanthropist and Democratic donor who has frequently figured in right-wing and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

 

Mr. Soros, who is Jewish, was also accused by Mr. Farrell of influencing the State Department. The episode was originally broadcast on Thursday but was shown again on Saturday night, after the shooting at a Pittsburgh synagogue that claimed 11 lives.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/business/lou-dobbs-fox-guest-anti-semitism.html

Edited October 29, 2018 by mtls2005

[Thakkar]

13 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

{ I actually think there is some benefit to these closet racists and anti-semites feeling emboldened to come out from under their robes, or from behind their anchor desks, and expose themselves for the truly horrible people they truly are

 

I’m of two minds. I wouldkve prefered they stay under their rocks. We already knew who they were from their years of dog-whistling. On the other hand, It’s possible whites, who live in a different, more privileged world—a world, like fish in water, they are unaware of—be be woken to the ugliness.

 

Then, there is Lincon’s view. 

Abolitionist Elijah Lovejoy denounced the lynchings. His antislavery press was attacked numerous times. Finally in 1837, HE TOO was lynched by a pro-slavery mob in Illinois. Lincoln thusly summarized the impact of this mob mentality:

 

 

Remind us of anything current?

[Jingthing]

As I said, this was EXPECTED and totally PREDICTABLE to anyone that has been paying attention, and yes, that is definitely tied to the very sick hate rhetoric of the current horror show of a nationalist demagogue president.

 

To add on another thread there were some comments from some people that really should have known better denying that there is anything antisemitic about the demonization of Soros. Hopefully they've learned something. 
 

Quote

 

Trump’s America is not a safe place for Jews

...

Whatever Trump’s motives, his words and deeds inspire the hateful and the violent. The man accused of sending pipe bombs to a dozen favorite Trump targets (including Soros) eschewed politics, his family’s lawyer says, until he “found a father in Trump.” The accused Pittsburgh gunman, though apparently rejecting Trump for being insufficiently nationalist, embraced on social media the themes Trump has popularized: the “globalist” danger, immigrant “invaders that kill our people” and an “infestation” of undesirables.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-washington-saw-america-as-a-safe-place-for-jews-trumps-america-isnt/2018/10/28/e21ea6e6-dade-11e8-b3f0-62607289efee_story.html

[Srikcir]

9 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

I just can't imagine why neo-nazis feel emboldened

Not just neo-nazis:

[cyberfarang]

On 10/28/2018 at 9:18 AM, mikebike said:

99% of FB users can use it responsibly. 99% of gun owners can use them responsibly. Do you really want to screw the 99% because of idiots? ...or would it be more rational to enact policy to restrict the 1%?

Sources please for your percentage statistics.

[cyberfarang]

7 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Not just neo-nazis:

 

[Jingthing]

"trump" is scheduled to visit Pittsburgh on Tuesday.

 

Hmm. 

 

Online (unscientific poll) from pro-trump Pittsburgh Post Gazette --

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime-courts/2018/10/29/Trump-jewish-synagogue-shootings-Pittsburgh-tree-of-life/stories/201810290133

 

Quote

 

Do you support or oppose President Trump's visit to Pittsburgh?

Support 38 percent

Oppose 59 percent

No opinion 3 percent

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Jingthing

[rott]

Another day, another nutter, lives ended, lives destroyed. Pity he didn't sell his firearm(s) and have a month or so in Pattaya, it would have given him something to live for. Better than spending the rest of his life in prison, and the victims would still have the rest of their lives.

[Credo]

Trump ‘not welcome in Pittsburgh’ until he denounces white nationalism, Jewish community leaders say

 

Eleven Jewish community leaders have said that Donald Trump is not welcome in Pittsburgh until he decides to “fully denounce white nationalism”, following a shooting in a synagogue on Saturday.

The group are all affiliated with the Pittsburgh branch of Bend the Arc: A Jewish Partnership, a liberal movement made up of “tens of thousands” of progressive Jewish members across the US, according to its website.

“For the past three years your words and your policies have emboldened a growing white nationalist movement,” the leaders said in an open letter to Mr Trump.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-not-welcome-pittsburgh-until-102204630.html

[Morch]

I think Trump's comment regarding carrying arms in the synagogue was his usual crass deflection fare. That said, and in light of some comparisons raised between Europe and the US, this piece may be relevant:

 

In Europe, synagogues are fortresses. Is this the path for the US?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-europe-synagogues-are-fortresses-is-this-the-path-for-the-us/

[simple1]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

I think Trump's comment regarding carrying arms in the synagogue was his usual crass deflection fare. That said, and in light of some comparisons raised between Europe and the US, this piece may be relevant:

 

In Europe, synagogues are fortresses. Is this the path for the US?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-europe-synagogues-are-fortresses-is-this-the-path-for-the-us/

Some EU countries have armed security for specific occasions, not full time, an example below. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jewish-holidays-rosh-hashanah-police-terror-attack-operation-armed-synagogues-hate-crime-london-a8529581.html

 

Trump's speech calling for unity after the murders had zero emotional resonance. IMO the trump Administration will not dial down the white grievance / divisiveness rants. In the hours after the mass murder trump was still carrying on with his red meat drivel for his base.

[Jingthing]

How incendiary political rhetoric is linked to mass murder --
 

Quote

 

An expert on ‘dangerous speech' explains how Trump’s rhetoric and the recent spate violence are and aren’t linked

 

Two weeks before Donald Trump would be elected president, American University professor Susan Benesch was careful not to draw parallels between the Republican candidate and the world leaders she has studied who incite mass violence.

But it was hard to ignore the similarities then, and it’s even harder now.

Benesch has dedicated the past decade of her academic research to developing a framework to identify what she terms “dangerous speech,” or speech that can lead to violence. Lately, everywhere she goes, she is asked whether she ever imagined that the ideas she has studied would be so relevant in her country. (She did not.)

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/29/professor-who-defined-dangerous-speech-how-trumps-rhetoric-pittsburgh-are-linked/

 

Let's get real. A group of poor people traveling to flee violence and seeking asylum status in the USA are not invaders as the U.S. demagogue president and his Fox News cheerleading squad keep repeating again and again and again. The mass murderer in Pittsburgh got that moronic BIG LIE in his sick head. Most people aren't as sick as that man but that doesn't mean the PROPAGANDA message that got in his head isn't sick and DANGEROUS. Will "trump" EVER stop it? Of course he won't. He sees his perverted divisiveness as the key element of his "WINNING" ideology. So the only answer is to check his power.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Jingthing

[cyberfarang]

14 hours ago, Morch said:

I think Trump's comment regarding carrying arms in the synagogue was his usual crass deflection fare. That said, and in light of some comparisons raised between Europe and the US, this piece may be relevant:

 

In Europe, synagogues are fortresses. Is this the path for the US?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-europe-synagogues-are-fortresses-is-this-the-path-for-the-us/

You`re not reading in-between the lines of Trump`s statement.

 

This is about his support for firearms in America. Instead of saying; guns must be controlled to help avoid incidents like this, he means, the more Americas that have guns to defend themselves, the better. It`s his typical politician way of BSing making a direct statement about gun controls. 

[stevenl]

On 10/30/2018 at 8:49 AM, simple1 said:

Some EU countries have armed security for specific occasions, not full time, an example below. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jewish-holidays-rosh-hashanah-police-terror-attack-operation-armed-synagogues-hate-crime-london-a8529581.html

 

Trump's speech calling for unity after the murders had zero emotional resonance. IMO the trump Administration will not dial down the white grievance / divisiveness rants. In the hours after the mass murder trump was still carrying on with his red meat drivel for his base.

Yes, and in many European countries there is no security.

 

This article from Times of Israel is arbitrary at best.

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Yes, and in many European countries there is no security.

 

This article from Times of Israel is arbitrary at best.

 

I don't know which "many European countries" you refer to, or if these correlate with European countries in which violence (or threats of) toward Jews is more of an issue. Regardless, and feel  free to correct me if I'm wrong, security at synagogues wasn't much of an issue in the past. In this sense, contemporary measures taken are already an indication that things changed (or are changing).

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:26 AM, Morch said:

In Europe, synagogues are fortresses. Is this the path for the US?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-europe-synagogues-are-fortresses-is-this-the-path-for-the-us/

Europe has more than 20 countries and in most they are NOT fortresses, BS article.

Unlike Israel and the USA not everybody has a gun there.

Edited October 31, 2018 by FritsSikkink

[stevenl]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't know which "many European countries" you refer to, or if these correlate with European countries in which violence (or threats of) toward Jews is more of an issue. Regardless, and feel  free to correct me if I'm wrong, security at synagogues wasn't much of an issue in the past. In this sense, contemporary measures taken are already an indication that things changed (or are changing).

As you well know I have you on my ignore list. Only saw your first post because others quoted it, and opened this one because I presumed it was an answer to my post. I won't reply to other posts anymore, but will say this. Your original link ' In Europe, synagogues are fortresses. Is this the path for the US? ' is arbitrary at best. But I'm sure the author will find 1-2 European countries where synagogues are fortresses. But that is far, far from the norm.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

As you well know I have you on my ignore list. Only saw your first post because others quoted it, and opened this one because I presumed it was an answer to my post. I won't reply to other posts anymore, but will say this. Your original link ' In Europe, synagogues are fortresses. Is this the path for the US? ' is arbitrary at best. But I'm sure the author will find 1-2 European countries where synagogues are fortresses. But that is far, far from the norm.

 

I'm not actually keeping tabs on which posters got me on ignore lists. Why would I care? Similarly, whether you choose to reply or not is totally up to you. That you make yet another one of your nothing-posts, though, is unsurprising. The headline of the article can be said to be over the top, fair enough. But then again, making this point doesn't make the examples cited go away, or change the fact that things nowadays are changed compared to the past. That you cannot actually support your "concrete" assertions with anything but repeating them in a loop doesn't make your argument.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Europe has more than 20 countries and in most they are NOT fortresses, BS article.

Unlike Israel and the USA not everybody has a gun there.

 

As said, the headline is probably over the top. That doesn't necessarily hold true for the content of the article, or to examples cited. Referencing 20 countries in Europe is great, but question is if level of relevant threat is similar in all, or if measures taken in countries where threats are more numerous/concrete.

 

I don't think Israel is on par with the US as far as private ownership of guns is concerned (although new, controversial legal initiative seeks to change that). Certainly nowhere near with regard to mass shootings etc.