Australia joins the UK and USA with withdrawal of income verification

[giddyup]

2 minutes ago, tropo said:

The stat declaration was a very convenient way to "prove" income. None of my personal income is Australia sourced, so proving an income would be very difficult through a government agency or the embassy... however, I spend 40k per month on rent and utilities alone, so for just 65k a month I wouldn't be eating very well and my wife's family would be starving. I'll have to do it your way, the easy way... deposit 3 million on a Thai bank. Rest assured you'll have Tropo bugging you on this forum for years to come LOL. (joke - 800k will suffice). If they stop the spouse piggyback retirement visa, then I'm out of here, but not until then. They actually discussed that idea about 10 years ago with full intentions of implementing it - Spouse and supporter both had to have 800k to show, but they quashed that idea pretty quickly. With all the other things happening, it's quite possible they may proceed, and foreign couples would need 1.6 million on deposit for 3 months a year. Anything can happen.

When I said I had 3 mil in the bank, 800K is in a kind of term deposit for retirement purposes and just over a couple of mil in a joint account, which means I have more than sufficient for us both to live on for some time to come without making any more transfers from Oz. Also, I'm no spring chicken, and I'm keeping what I hope is enough in reserve if I need any kind of emergency medical treatment. I'm sure it's not the way others would choose to do it, but it's my way.

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Good to see you 'sticking up' for 'happyand rich' - but (unsuprisingly....)you've only deflected from the question asked!

 

 

The obvious answer is that no one knows. Not sure how I'm "sticking up" for anyone, I'm only voicing my own opinion.

[malt25]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I'm talking in hypothetical terms. I do the 800K route too. It's just nice to have a second option.

I think I am not unreasonable to expect Australian public servants, paid for with my taxes, to deliver service to Australians abroad. If they can't do that, why the hell are we employing them?

Me thinks that you are on the wrong wave length here. I think you are being unreasonable to expect any embassy to employ staff to attempt to verify incomes. If it were just income from "government pensions" I agree it wouldn't be impossible. But, there's so many different income streams expats rely on to comply with immigration demands, verification is way beyond the scope & interest of any embassy. I sometimes think we all feel that embassies are here exclusively for "our" service. Embassies are primarily to foster trade, good will & cultural issues. Maybe some military issues. Parties, golf, fishing trips are also high on the list. If we, as expats fall foul of the law, the best we can expect is for the embassy to recommend a reasonable lawyer. Nothing more.

I also rely on the income method, so I'm NOT a wealthy farang with excess money to transfer into a local bank account.

We have chosen to reside in a foreign country. We have very few, if any, rights. It all boils down to a matter of comply or move on.

That's my take on the situation. I accept many will disagree.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, giddyup said:

When I said I had 3 mil in the bank, 800K is in a kind of term deposit for retirement purposes and just over a couple of mil in a joint account, which means I have more than sufficient for us both to live on for some time to come without making any more transfers from Oz. Also, I'm no spring chicken, and I'm keeping what I hope is enough in reserve if I need any kind of emergency medical treatment. I'm sure it's not the way others would choose to do it, but it's my way.

Oh good.  Someone else who is determined to state that they are wealthy....

 

I'm at a loss as to why a few posters with no interest in the topic at hand (as they are v wealthy, and so it doesn't affect them....), keep posting regardless!

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, fforest1 said:

I am pretty sure a few are being paid to post ( I hope they have a work permit) others just enjoy feeling smug while not noticing the raising water level is almost at their visa doorstep....

More likely that they just enjoy feeling smug and superior to others.....

 

Sad, but I've met a few in my life that are inclined that way - and even more that felt the need to pretend they were wealthy, thinking that this would impress everyone else!

[tropo]

11 minutes ago, giddyup said:

When I said I had 3 mil in the bank, 800K is in a kind of term deposit for retirement purposes and just over a couple of mil in a joint account, which means I have more than sufficient for us both to live on for some time to come without making any more transfers from Oz. Also, I'm no spring chicken, and I'm keeping what I hope is enough in reserve if I need any kind of emergency medical treatment. I'm sure it's not the way others would choose to do it, but it's my way.

I've been here long enough to know that all good things come to an end sooner or later. It's more than just here, but in life in general. Although I'm not happy about these current changes, I'm not surprised at all and never felt it was a forever deal. I'm sure there will be a lot more changes coming up in the next couple of years too. I've always had a glass half empty attitude toward life and expect the worst, only to be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't come to pass.

[giddyup]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Oh good.  Someone else who is determined to state that they are wealthy....

 

I'm at a loss as to why a few posters with no interest in the topic at hand (as they are v wealthy, and so it doesn't affect them....), keep posting regardless!

I was responding to Tropo and justifying, not that I have to, why I have 3 mil in the bank. A serious medical emergency can cost an easy million baht here, and I'm no longer covered in Australia as I've been out of the country for 9 years. So what do you suggest if I get seriously ill, just die untreated? I might add that I have known two people who have died unnecessarily in the last 2 years purely because they had no money for medical treatment.

Edited November 5, 2018 by giddyup

[tropo]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

I was responding to Tropo and justifying, not that I have to, why I have 3 mil in the bank. A serious medical emergency can cost an easy million baht here, and I'm no longer covered in Australia as I've been out of the country for 9 years. So what do you suggest if I get seriously ill, just die untreated?

I would die untreated in many scenarios. It all depends on what's wrong and what can be done, and how much money you have. I know one unlucky Farang that is still limping on a leg 7 years on that they f**** up in surgery here in Thailand. One of the supposedly best orthopaedic surgeons at one of the best hospitals in BKK. Spent over 1 million. 

[Lacessit]

16 minutes ago, malt25 said:

Me thinks that you are on the wrong wave length here. I think you are being unreasonable to expect any embassy to employ staff to attempt to verify incomes. If it were just income from "government pensions" I agree it wouldn't be impossible. But, there's so many different income streams expats rely on to comply with immigration demands, verification is way beyond the scope & interest of any embassy. I sometimes think we all feel that embassies are here exclusively for "our" service. Embassies are primarily to foster trade, good will & cultural issues. Maybe some military issues. Parties, golf, fishing trips are also high on the list. If we, as expats fall foul of the law, the best we can expect is for the embassy to recommend a reasonable lawyer. Nothing more.

I also rely on the income method, so I'm NOT a wealthy farang with excess money to transfer into a local bank account.

We have chosen to reside in a foreign country. We have very few, if any, rights. It all boils down to a matter of comply or move on.

That's my take on the situation. I accept many will disagree.

Ok, I disagree. If you refer to my previous posts, you'll find all I am asking for is a Consulate official to look at my stat dec, multiply it by 12, and compare the figure with the bottom line on my tax return for verification. Even a village idiot can do that.

Parties, golf and fishing trips? Yeah right. Were you an Australian public servant? That would fit.

Australian taxpayers are blissfully unaware of the perks consulates and embassies enjoy. There's a property owned by the embassy in Jakarta in the central highlands, for use by all the staff. I've seen it. It's not a house. It's not a mansion. It's a freaking palace. The age of entitlement is not over, irrespective of what Joe Hockey says.

[sirineou]

19 minutes ago, giddyup said:

I was responding to Tropo and justifying, not that I have to, why I have 3 mil in the bank. A serious medical emergency can cost an easy million baht here, and I'm no longer covered in Australia as I've been out of the country for 9 years. So what do you suggest if I get seriously ill, just die untreated?

I do the same, even though I have insurance in the US. I will be 62 next spring and even If I could find affordable insurance in Thailand at my age, by now most everything is a pre-existing condition.

  IMO you are playing fast and loose with your most valuable asset, (your life) if you do not have sufficient funds to  self insure for basic emergencies.

 But I understand that one has to do, what one has to do, and I am not critical towards those who don't have similar provisions .I think "There by the grace of god go I" and realise that situations could change in my home country  and I could easily find myself in the same situation. Pension funds can go bust (mine is insured for 60 cents on the dollar,) social security might not be around forever. 

Make love not war, but always have both condoms and bullets in your pocket.

Edited November 5, 2018 by sirineou
typo (one of many I am sure)

[giddyup]

37 minutes ago, tropo said:

I would die untreated in many scenarios. It all depends on what's wrong and what can be done, and how much money you have. I know one unlucky Farang that is still limping on a leg 7 years on that they f**** up in surgery here in Thailand. One of the supposedly best orthopaedic surgeons at one of the best hospitals in BKK. Spent over 1 million. 

And there's been plenty who's lives have been saved.  If you think the risk is too great, there's always faith healing, or Thai witch doctors.

[giddyup]

37 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Ok, I disagree. If you refer to my previous posts, you'll find all I am asking for is a Consulate official to look at my stat dec, multiply it by 12, and compare the figure with the bottom line on my tax return for verification. Even a village idiot can do that.

Parties, golf and fishing trips? Yeah right. Were you an Australian public servant? That would fit.

Australian taxpayers are blissfully unaware of the perks consulates and embassies enjoy. There's a property owned by the embassy in Jakarta in the central highlands, for use by all the staff. I've seen it. It's not a house. It's not a mansion. It's a freaking palace. The age of entitlement is not over, irrespective of what Joe Hockey says.

OK, you have a simple income stream, what about the possibly dozens of other whose income is derived from many sources? Are they told to go away because their situation is far too complicated for a embassy clerk to check? You seem far too concerned about the perks that embassy officials enjoy, would you rather see our countries representatives living in a shoebox in a government high rise? Public servants and politicians enjoy lavish perks whatever country they are from, absolutely nothing to do with this issue. 

[cleverman]

I wonder what people can do now they can't get the embassy income letter. 

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, HappyAndRich said:

Let´s say that roughly 200000 expats live in Thailand at the moment. Let´s say that 2% make false income claims. Another 4% use dodgy visa services, which is same bad.
That results in 6 percent out of 200000, which would be 12000 expats. That´s a big problem and that´s why they are starting to put pressure and shutting down all of that.

A problem how, exactly?  I am not defending those who commit felonies on embassy-letters (insane) or pay-off agents to fake their money entirely - but what harm could these guesstimated 12,000 be doing to Thailand?  Where are their victims?

There are millions of victims of immigration-enforcement failure in the West - both economic-harm and crime-victims.  I have to wonder if people are somehow mixing the situations in their home-countries with what is happening here.  What else could create a sense of urgency surrounding Western visa/extension fraud in Thailand?  To the extent it exists (primarily via agents - immigration's favorite customers), it is inconsequential.

 

If history is prelude, a primary aim of this action is to get more folks who were using the income-method with embassy-letters - whether they were telling the truth or not - going directly to those dodgy-agents.  

Edited November 5, 2018 by JackThompson

[Lacessit]

49 minutes ago, giddyup said:

OK, you have a simple income stream, what about the possibly dozens of other whose income is derived from many sources? Are they told to go away because their situation is far too complicated for a embassy clerk to check? You seem far too concerned about the perks that embassy officials enjoy, would you rather see our countries representatives living in a shoebox in a government high rise? Public servants and politicians enjoy lavish perks whatever country they are from, absolutely nothing to do with this issue. 

I would suggest if their income is derived from many sources, they can afford the 800K deposit and don't need an income declaration anyway.

I'd rather see embassy officials living sensibly. Not in a shoebox, just sensibly. And giving service to Australians abroad. If you're comfortable with the status quo, we'll agree to disagree.

Just as a footnote - when he was Foreign Minister and overseas, Al Grassby and his wife would every day order $2000 worth of fresh flowers delivered to their hotel suite or embassy accommodation. At taxpayer expense. Because they could. If you think that's OK, I'd say your moral compass is screwed up.

[onera1961]

6 hours ago, Russell17au said:

Also it is not illegal for the embassy to obtain you financial records if you give them your permission to do so.

They can outsource the entire operation for a fee.

[cleverman]

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I would suggest if their income is derived from many sources, they can afford the 800K deposit and don't need an income declaration anyway.

I'd rather see embassy officials living sensibly. Not in a shoebox, just sensibly. And giving service to Australians abroad. If you're comfortable with the status quo, we'll agree to disagree.

Just as a footnote - when he was Foreign Minister and overseas, Al Grassby and his wife would every day order $2000 worth of fresh flowers delivered to their hotel suite or embassy accommodation. At taxpayer expense. Because they could. If you think that's OK, I'd say your moral compass is screwed up.

I am definitely going to drop a line to the Ozzie embassy complaining about Al Grasby. Then maby the embassy will continue to issue the income letters. 

[tropo]

1 hour ago, giddyup said:

And there's been plenty who's lives have been saved.  If you think the risk is too great, there's always faith healing, or Thai witch doctors.

It's not only a matter of risk. There are many things to consider, but there's no point derailing the thread to discuss them.

[pontious]

1 hour ago, cleverman said:

I wonder what people can do now they can't get the embassy income letter. 

Nobody knows - Immigration have not said what they will accept.

[tropo]

1 hour ago, cleverman said:

I wonder what people can do now they can't get the embassy income letter. 

What they should be doing is making an appointment with their respective embassies to obtain one before their cut off date (if UK, US or AU citizens). That gives most people until July to obtain another extension and some breathing room. They aren't doing it. I'm the only one who has booked an appointment on Jan 2 & 3, the only January dates available so far until Jan 4 becomes open tomorrow, the last chance before the January 7 cut off date. There are only 14 slots available per day.

 

I suspect that most people aren't aware of the income stat dec being valid for 6 months. Perhaps others, after hearing the report from Phuket a few days ago don't believe they will be accepted at all next year.

 

I would suggest nationals from other countries get one too. I got mine a few days before the Australian embassy broke the good news, which I feel is inevitable for every embassy.

 

 

[fforest1]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

A problem how, exactly?  I am not defending those who commit felonies on embassy-letters (insane) or pay-off agents to fake their money entirely - but what harm could these guesstimated 12,000 be doing to Thailand?  Where are their victims?

There are millions of victims of immigration-enforcement failure in the West - both economic-harm and crime-victims.  I have to wonder if people are somehow mixing the situations in their home-countries with what is happening here.  What else could create a sense of urgency surrounding Western visa/extension fraud in Thailand?  To the extent it exists (primarily via agents - immigration's favorite customers), it is inconsequential.

 

If history is prelude, a primary aim of this action is to get more folks who were using the income-method with embassy-letters - whether they were telling the truth or not - going directly to those dodgy-agents.  

Expats are for the most part a well behaved crime free non trouble making bunch....

Expats spend lots of money and support the Thai economy hugely, while Thailand gives expats ZERO benefits or help in any way what so ever......

It sounds to me like Thailand is getting a heck of a deal....

 

So the 64,000 dollar question is why are the westerners slowly being pushed out? And who do they want in?....The Chinese?...The Indians?....Or?

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by fforest1

[tropo]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

A problem how, exactly?  I am not defending those who commit felonies on embassy-letters (insane) or pay-off agents to fake their money entirely - but what harm could these guesstimated 12,000 be doing to Thailand?  Where are their victims?

There are millions of victims of immigration-enforcement failure in the West - both economic-harm and crime-victims.  I have to wonder if people are somehow mixing the situations in their home-countries with what is happening here.  What else could create a sense of urgency surrounding Western visa/extension fraud in Thailand?  To the extent it exists (primarily via agents - immigration's favorite customers), it is inconsequential.

 

If history is prelude, a primary aim of this action is to get more folks who were using the income-method with embassy-letters - whether they were telling the truth or not - going directly to those dodgy-agents.  

Of course, you are spot on. What possible harm would a foreigner misrepresenting their disposable income be doing to anyone? None at all. They are just people on low budgets, but still paying their own way. Of course, it's risky for themselves if they don't have back up savings, but they aren't causing any hardship for anyone else. They are merely fodder for this new anti-foreigner agenda which has become quite prominent in the news these days. Every week there's a new headline about some government hero capturing, imprisoning, X-raying and then deporting illegal foreigners. IMO It's a political agenda pampering to the huge anti-foreigner faction of potential voters in the upcoming election. It takes their minds off their real problems by giving them someone to blame.  

[gk10002000]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:05 PM, Pattaya46 said:

Why that? Can't you do it using Internet?

It's a 2 minutes painless work every 3 month.

 

Painless?  Not according to many people that post about issues using the site. It's reliability is suspect

[Joe Mcseismic]

8 hours ago, cleverman said:

I wonder what people can do now they can't get the embassy income letter. 

Stump up the cash and put it into a Thai bank and get the letters from the Bank that immigration require.

Either that, or, change visa, or leave for another place.

[Joe Mcseismic]

5 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Your post is not better IMHO. Looks like you think that all expats are retired people when in reality most of them (hundreds of thousands) are active people working in Thailand.

Among them are very high qualified people (with rather high salaries) often here as "experts" and - contrary to what you say - many sectors of industry and finance would have serious problems if "all the expats had to packed up and left" tomorrow. 

True, but, they aren't on retirement visas and if they are married, can easily comply with the conditions.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Joe Mcseismic

[ubonjoe]

Just did a clean up of topic again by removing some inflammatory, off topic post and replies to them.

Edit: Add couple of more that I missed and now replies to them.

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by ubonjoe

[luckyluke]

10 hours ago, tropo said:

would suggest nationals from other countries get one too. I got mine a few days before the Australian embassy broke the good news, which I feel is inevitable for every embassy.

 

Wonder why they all wait so long to make an announcement.

 

Or than... ( speculations )

 

 

The Holland embassy issued an Affidavit till last year. They now issue an Income Letter after " verification " ( It seems they use the documents of the Pension Office or/and tax revenues documents ) and the amount must now be a net amount.

 

Till now this is also what the Austrian Consulate in Pattaya  is doing since years and still do, for Austrians, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, Luxembourgers, who use their services. 

 

The word is that the Netherlands embassy  made this transition from Affidavit to Letter of Income after consultation with the T.I..

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by luckyluke

[scottiejohn]

4 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

(hundreds of thousands)

Where did you get that made up figure from? 

Take the "s" off the end of the hundreds and you will be nearer the mark if you are referring to Australia, Canada, Europe and USA expats.

Edited November 6, 2018 by scottiejohn

[Naam]

14 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

14 hours ago, giddyup said:

When I said I had 3 mil in the bank, 800K is in a kind of term deposit for retirement purposes and just over a couple of mil in a joint account, which means I have more than sufficient for us both to live on for some time to come without making any more transfers from Oz. Also, I'm no spring chicken, and I'm keeping what I hope is enough in reserve if I need any kind of emergency medical treatment. I'm sure it's not the way others would choose to do it, but it's my way.

Oh good.  Someone else who is determined to state that they are wealthy....

 

I'm at a loss as to why a few posters with no interest in the topic at hand (as they are v wealthy, and so it doesn't affect them....), keep posting regardless!

an unfair statement as "giddyup" didn't mention anything about being wealthy. but even if he did it would be ludicrous to equate 4mm Baht cash holdings as "wealthy" because not everybody can afford it.

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

an unfair statement as "giddyup" didn't mention anything about being wealthy. but even if he did it would be ludicrous to equate 4mm Baht cash holdings as "wealthy" because not everybody can afford it.

I'm not living from pension cheque to pension cheque, so if that's considered wealthy.....guilty!