Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[Denim]

Between Trump and May bating the voices of a handful of disgruntled Thai expats will be more lost than that of John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness.

 

Face the facts. It's a done deal and that is the end of it. The only thing to do for those effected is to try to work within the new parameters created by the shifting goal posts.

 

Where there is a will there is a way but to expect any help from your government is naive.

[alex8912]

47 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Look in the mirror and think.....the truth will set you free!

Are you worried soon you will be philsdream or vietdream from all your posts especially against that one guy?

[Russell17au]

5 hours ago, Just Weird said:

What he said was 100% correct, it was not "complete and utter rubbish".  If you can prove the income to Immigration you will not have a problem. 

 

And, if you are legitimate, it is very obvious that he was not calling you a liar!  Incidentally, how exactly would he be able to say that to your face, Mr Anonymous Forum Poster?

If you can prove your income to your embassy then you should be able to get your letter of income/affirmation of income/statutory declaration. The embassies do not want to issue the letters. It is that simple. To me it would be better to prove your income to your embassy to handle and not Thai Immigration. This has only started since "Big Joke" has come on the scene and is making sure that everything is by the law. Think about it this way, how long is the que at your embassy compared to at your local immigration office. If you want Thai Immigration to handle the proof of income then you can expect the waiting time at your local immigration office to double or even triple while they try to sort out each individuals income finances. Quicker and easier at the embassies.

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, alex8912 said:

Are you worried soon you will be philsdream or vietdream from all your posts especially against that one guy?

Actually I am not  worried as I have the required income- I like a good difference of opinion and hold no animosity towards anyone.  Live and let live. 

[Issanjohn]

Come on guys it’s really not the end of the world I’ve looked into it and it’s actually not all that big a deal.  There’s a lot of mass hysteria out there about this issue I think.  I wish people on this website would respect each other a little more.  I also wish people would stop calling him “big joke” I know that the expat community didn’t start that nickname but we really don’t have to keep repeating it because it’s disrespectful and could potentially even be considered borderline defamation of a government official.  And I know someone will probably give me a smart ass reply but oh well I’ll get over it.  

[jvs]

42 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

 my wife has orders to empty the bank upon the day of my death.

A little off topic but i am not sure if that is legal,she could get into trouble for doing that.

[joevanwyck]

12 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

All you have to organise is getting the correct amount of money in your bank account, or coming into it. The only people this change affects are the liars and fraudsters, as it was meant to

I agree. We are guests in Thailand. Getting a long term visa, ( Retirement or Marriage),is not a right it is a privilege granted by the Thai Government if you meet their income requirements. I will organize my finances in a Thai Bank Account to comply with those requirements.

[Spidey]

17 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

This has only started since "Big Joke" has come on the scene and is making sure that everything is by the law.

This started before Big Joke became acting head of Immigration. The British Embassy announcement preceded his appointment.

[alex8912]

21 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Actually I am not  worried as I have the required income- I like a good difference of opinion and hold no animosity towards anyone.  Live and let live. 

Ok. This is a strange place for difference of opinion TVF 

[Orton Rd]

8 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Hang on a mo! Some honest guys cannot put 800k in their bank. And your words 'or coming into it' are incorrect, you cannot extend on a mnothly income declaration. It is either 800k in the bank NOW, or average of Bht 88,888 per month for nine months. Then Robert's your father's brother.

If you do not have the funds you cannot legally be here, simple

[Curt1591]

Add to the mix that the BOT has banks insisting upon a work permit. If I had to work, it sure as heck wouldn't be in Thailand! Banks refusing to accept my money! Imagine that! 

 

After shopping around, I found that Bangkok Bank will open an account with proof of residence - a affidavit from my embassy. If pressed, other banks may do it, but it requires authorization above a simple branch manager's pay grade!

What's ironic is that foreigners working here, spend the money they earn here. It's like taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. Retirees bring all their money into the country! 

[Patriot1066]

4 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

Add to the mix that the BOT has banks insisting upon a work permit. If I had to work, it sure as heck wouldn't be in Thailand! Banks refusing to accept my money! Imagine that! 

 

After shopping around, I found that Bangkok Bank will open an account with proof of residence - a affidavit from my embassy. If pressed, other banks may do it, but it requires authorization above a simple branch manager's pay grade!

What's ironic is that foreigners working here, spend the money they earn here. It's like taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. Retirees bring all their money into the country! 

Yes ironic bit like saying you need an egg, but have to have a chicken to make the egg and not allowed an animal permit for a chicken!

[jessebkk1]

To the OP, do not allow some of the misleading opinions of some of those who have posted here to dampen your morale or vision.

 

  To everyone browsing through comments remember that this an anonymous forum and most of those who comment are not who they claim to be/represent, some don't leave here in Thailand and some are Thais and their opinions are here to mislead, arm twist, mock, confuse etc those with genuine issues affecting their lives/families here in Thailand.

 

  At OP i agree that it's high time that the legit foreigners who have lived here in Thailand for over a decade come together to start discuss issues like these and find a means to communicate directly with the Thai government. 

 

  Although I do not believe the Embassies are those who this should directed at, The US/UK/AUS embassies can not dictate policies for the Thai government. Main cause of this problem is Thai government refusing to accept that foreigner is married to a Thai with kids or maybe unmarried but has lived here for over 10years on a non tourist visa is no longer a foreigner or a mere tourist and should stop treating them as such.

 

  I know for certain that the Thai government/immigration will never listen to some foreigners who are pained by new government policies. But here's the deal if you have taken care of a thai family yours or by adoption then those are the people to rally together and they are the ones who can sway their government. This is the time to tell your Thai wives, kids, extended family and friends to stand for you as you have stood for them over the years and demand that the foreigners who have lived here for decade(s) lawfully are treated better than they currently are.

 

 

 

 

[thailand49]

1 hour ago, HappyAndRich said:

Sorry I had to short it down. Next time, can you please try to make that reading like 5 times smaller by taking away all obvious repeting of the same subject?

why is your prostate not holding up?????

[Kerryd]

10 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

That is a ruse. How do the banks verify your incomes in the US and risk millions of dollars for home loans? If you give permission, they should be able to verify anything.

Feel free to go to your Embassy and tell them that. See how far you get.

First off, they will probably tell you that they are not a bank.
Secondly they will probably tell you that they have neither the time nor the staff to do all that.
Thirdly they will probably tell you that "it's not as simple as that and just because you said "no problem" doesn't mean they can then push that magic button that gives them all the details on all you income".

Just because it isn't convenient for you doesn't mean they can somehow circumvent the law in order to accommodate you. When you give permission to a bank to "check you out", it's not just a simple piece of paper with an "Okey Dokey" on it and your signature. It is a legal document that sets out the limitations of what they can look at and who they can share that information with.

For an Embassy to do the same thing it would require a whole set of rules and laws to be created that detailed what information they could look at and who/how/when they could share that information with, including such things as securing the information and storage/disposal of it. Those rules/laws would have to be written and approved at a Federal level as they would apply to every embassy whether or not they currently issue the same kind of letter, and those rules would probably have to be vetted/approved by almost every State Legislature as well (as each State probably has different rules/laws about Financial Privacy as well).

But feel free to just assume that they can just skip all that or that they can just send a memo to the State Department and get approval to do all that (as well as get funding for all the additional staff and equipment) overnight.

 

[Spidey]

40 minutes ago, Issanjohn said:

Come on guys it’s really not the end of the world I’ve looked into it and it’s actually not all that big a deal.  There’s a lot of mass hysteria out there about this issue I think.  I wish people on this website would respect each other a little more.

It is a big deal for those who can't seed their Thai bank account to the tune of 800k for 3 months.

 

I returned to my home country this year with a view to buying a property and investing most of my spare cash in it, with a view to generating an income/ better return for my money. Luckily, I was unable to find a suitable property and still have enough cash to deposit the 800k in a Thai bank account. My current income is well above the threshold required by TI. There but for the grace of God go I.

 

I wish people on this website would respect people less fortunate than themselves. I worry about those who may be forced to return to their countries, leaving their families behind.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

For the rest of us, it will be just like when they clamped down on the "30 Day" stamps. Everyone was all "waaaa - Thailand's economy will die if we can't live here without meeting any financial requirements and we have to move to another country".
Meanwhile the rest of us just carried on like normal. Thailand never even noticed "all" those who left because they couldn't stay forever using the 30 Day stamps.

The Thais who lost their jobs and businesses when their customers could not stay noticed.  And as things get more difficult, more businesses have closed, and more are noticing this self-destructive policy.

 

But you are right, until they come for you, you won't be affected.  

 

2 hours ago, Kerryd said:

Couple guys I spoke to though wouldn't consider the Philippines as they thought it was more dangerous than Thailand, and not because of the road statistics.

Just avoid Manilla - like a different country than the rest.  Cebu is nice.

[Wake Up]

10 hours ago, john smith said:

A fraud trickster or liar I am not. Money in excess of 65000 is transferred monthly from the UK to my Thai bank.

I was informed by immigration at Hua Hin main office three days ago that 65000 is not acceptable unless accompanied by an Embassy letter and only 800000 will be accepted with the usual three month proviso. Obviously this could change

I was told the opposite by a supervisor at CW in Bangkok two days before the USA embassy announced no more income affidavits. She said 800 k in a bank three months before or 65 k transfered to a thai bank every month would be acceptable next year. I know this can be truly upsetting for some of you but Thailand does not want to get rid of expats that can transfer 65 k a month to Thailand as these expats are not the problem but a benefit for Thailand. 

[jessebkk1]

And for those of you who think that the foreigners living here over represent their effect on the economy should research better on this issue. There is a direct correlation of Thailand's economy and how it's perceived globally.

 

  And yes majority of the foreign investment in thailand is based on the opinion of what the people of the investors country think about thailand and what the general opinion of foreigners living in Thailand is. So yes, throwing a huge amount of foreign residents who are a spending part of the population out will definitely have an impact on the economy, as a matter of fact it already has.

 

   I have tried to make sense of new anti foreigner agenda going on and it defies all common sense, there obviously is no way this country benefits from this. Cracking down on visa overstayers is one thing, this seems to be much more than that.

 

  This is a military regime and the positive numbers being thrown out there with regards to tourism, economic growth etc is definitely being cooked. This is a FACT. If you can put 2 and 2 together, no one needs to tell you that. The real state of how things have become in the past 4 years is quite worse than it's being made to appear.

 

 

[moe666]

1 hour ago, Kerryd said:

And keep in mind people, Thai Immigration did - not - say that they wouldn't be accepting "Income Letters" as of 1 Jan (or whenever).

That is when (some of) the Embassies said they would stop issuing those letters. (In some cases the letters are valid for up to 6 months after issue - but I'm sure you already know that, don't you.)

And no - the low level staff at your embassy, many of whom may be foreign nationals, do not have access to confidential financial information on every citizen from your country. 
Seriously. I find it amazing how many people seem to think that Teerak Somchai from Nakhon Nowhere can push a button and access information that even the FBI would need a warrant to do in the States.

 

Get real people. There are LAWS about those kinds of things. Even in the part of the government that actually pays out your (government) pension, it isn't possible for just anyone to access that information (or make it public), let alone people from other branches/departments. If it was that easy then Donald Trump's tax files would have been made public long before he was actually elected.
 

And you think all your embassies have enough staff sitting around on their ***es with nothing better to do that research all the financial details of all the people who have have multiple sources of income from different companies in different states that have different privacy laws ? Not too mention that every single one of those people will have a dozen different reasons for why their income "doesn't quite" meet the requirement but if the staffer would sign the letter "just this one time" they'll make sure they have all the right information (and amounts) for next time. (And so on and so on.)

Take the UK embassy for example. They apparently process 300(+) "Income Letters" per month. THINK about that. That equals 10 per day, every single day of the month, every day of the year. Take off 1 day a week and a couple holidays and it works out to around 17 letters per day, every single working day of the year.

 

A lot of you people need to wake up to some reality. Your embassies do not have that many staff. Those staff do not have access to confidential financial information (even the senior staff that are citizens of your country). Your LAWS prevent them from accessing that information even if they were willing to try.

Thailand has told them that they will not accept the income letters unless the amounts claimed can be verified. So if your Embassy thinks they can verify what you tell them is true, and is willing to swear to that (and thus be held liable if it turns out the information is false), then Immigration will accept an Income Letter from them.

I suspect that most of the larger Embassies will do the same thing as the UK/Australian/American Embassies because they can't verify the information, even if they wanted to, and don't want to be held liable.
Maybe some embassies, that have fewer expats in country asking for such letters and have different laws about accessing confidential information on their citizens, will continue issuing the letters (and accepting liability for them) but they will be few in number. 

I'm kind of curious what the Russian, Chinese and Indian embassies are telling their people. I suspect that most of the "expats" from the neighbouring countries are probably not on long term Visas - or using "income letters" either so they probably aren't concerned about it.



 

I asked my agent who has a lot of japanese customers and these letters do not affect them. I guess the Japanese government has a different way to handle it. I will go with the 400,000b deposit if it comes to that a bit over 10,000 dollars thats what my knee replacement cost last year.

[lkv]

37 minutes ago, jessebkk1 said:

I know for certain that the Thai government/immigration will never listen to some foreigners who are pained by new government policies. But here's the deal if you have taken care of a thai family yours or by adoption then those are the people to rally together and they are the ones who can sway their government. This is the time to tell your Thai wives, kids, extended family and friends to stand for you as you have stood for them over the years and demand that the foreigners who have lived here for decade(s) lawfully are treated better than they currently are.

 

I think Thais have more important issues to focus on, such as economy, return to democracy and so on.

 

Quite frankly, if I was Thai, the last thing I would be concerned about is that a foreign pensioneer cannot get his affidavit from the US Embassy and has to transfer 800K, which he cannot afford to do (in most cases not willing to).

 

If the numbers were significant, maybe. But in the grand scheme of things unfortunately they are not.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by lkv

[NanLaew]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I returned to my home country this year with a view to buying a property and investing most of my spare cash in it, with a view to generating an income/ better return for my money.

Which country offers a significant return on a property investment of only £18,500 or so?

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, cyberfarang said:

The borrowing money in order to obtain yearly extensions is what I have already predicted will happen and I can assume immigration are also aware of this.

Very aware - must pay very well.  It would seem they want more of this - not less.

 

4 hours ago, alex8912 said:

The next group of retired people coming to Thailand will be much better prepared and in many instances a real asset to the country.

Yes, more likely to have their agent-connections down-pat pre-arrival, given that seems to be the gold-standard, now.

 

4 hours ago, alex8912 said:

Maybe immigration here see a large amount of day to day BS from many that do not even post on here and some that do and they are completely fed up with it.

Yes, many were getting embassy-letters, instead of paying immigration through agents like many wealthier and poorer expats do.  The embassy-letters were really getting in the way of the money-flow - time to hit-up the expats in the middle-range, who have the required-income but not a pile of cash.

 

3 hours ago, digger70 said:

I Agree .this letter bullshit has been stopped because To many Expats have been Lying about the Real income/pension .I one can't get the acquired funds together for their extension they shouldn't be here,and it will stop the rogue agents from doing their dodgy way of getting you an extension with  no THB in the bank. 

Based on past actions by immigration, the object is to increase agent-bought extensions, not reduce them.  Someone reported the "no-hassle fee" for EDU extensions is up to 5K for every 90-day extension at one school/office, which just happens to work out to about 20K/yr - same as agent "sponsored" retirement-extensions.  Coincidence?

[Orton Rd]

36 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

Add to the mix that the BOT has banks insisting upon a work permit. If I had to work, it sure as heck wouldn't be in Thailand! Banks refusing to accept my money! Imagine that! 

 

After shopping around, I found that Bangkok Bank will open an account with proof of residence - a affidavit from my embassy. If pressed, other banks may do it, but it requires authorization above a simple branch manager's pay grade!

What's ironic is that foreigners working here, spend the money they earn here. It's like taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. Retirees bring all their money into the country! 

Something of a myth not being able to open a bank account without a WP, none seem to turn you away if you have 400-800k to open it with.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Orton Rd

[Spidey]

Just now, Wake Up said:

I know this can be truly upsetting for some of you but Thailand does not want to get rid of expats that can transfer 65 k a month to Thailand as these expats are not the problem but a benefit for Thailand. 

Agree that it was never TI's intention to get rid of expats. However, the method that was suggested to you by the IO would be difficult to achieve as, IMO, would require a rule change. Unlike the 800k seeded in a Thai bank account, the 65k/month is supposed to be income. Hard to see how this could be proven beyond reasonable doubt to TI simply by depositing the 65k in a Thai bank account, it could be drawn from your savings or some other source.

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, alex8912 said:

Many have no insurance in their 80’s so what hospital here is able to deal with their  illnesses? The numbers may be overwhelming and this  could have been coming down the pike for years. 

If that is the issue, they should propose an "stabilize and repatriate" insurance which all persons - especially risk-prone moto-renting "party time tourists" - must have to get a permitted-stay.  Since there is no other financial downside to foreigners here, that should replace any need for income-verification at all.  Any residual "clean up" can be done by arresting and deporting expat beggars/vagrants (of which I have never seen one).

 

3 hours ago, Mansell said:

Then add in the fact that most farang are older and moving into health issues, more money not going to the hospitals around the country.

This is an important point.  Most foreigners who seek treatment pay for it - which helps Thailand have better-quality health-services for everyone.

[Spidey]

5 minutes ago, jessebkk1 said:

I have tried to make sense of new anti foreigner agenda going on and it defies all common sense, there obviously is no way this country benefits from this. Cracking down on visa overstayers is one thing, this seems to be much more than that.

There's an election due, cracking down on/getting rid of foreigners appeals to the junta's xenophobic base.

 

I fully expect that all this will fade away after the election.....if there is an election.

[JackThompson]

 

3 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

They really don't want people that can live Thai style on 20k. That's why they set the financial requirement.

Some posters really need to step out of their own shoes and see this from a Thai perspective (unpleasant as that may be).

I'm trying to see it that way, but must be missing something - so why, exactly, is that a problem, from the Thai perspective? 

And, btw, that 20K is well above "Thai style" for the vast majority of Thais - 2 "relatively good" Thai salaries worth of "free money" pouring into the country per poor-expat - never mind those who have 65K and up.

 

And, of course, many with 800K "savings" don't have high-incomes - live on a bit of social-security / state-pension money.

[Orton Rd]

5 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If that is the issue, they should propose an "stabilize and repatriate" insurance which all persons - especially risk-prone moto-renting "party time tourists" - must have to get a permitted-stay.  Since there is no other financial downside to foreigners here, that should replace any need for income-verification at all.  Any residual "clean up" can be done by arresting and deporting expat beggars/vagrants (of which I have never seen one).

 

This is an important point.  Most foreigners who seek treatment pay for it - which helps Thailand have better-quality health-services for everyone.

If some of these jokers cannot afford 400-800k to stay here how will they be paying a lot more for medical bills when the time comes?

Edited November 8, 2018 by Orton Rd

[Spidey]

Just now, JackThompson said:

Any residual "clean up" can be done by arresting and deporting expat beggars/vagrants (of which I have never seen one).

Come to Pattaya, I see several regularly.