Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[moe666]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Agree that it was never TI's intention to get rid of expats. However, the method that was suggested to you by the IO would be difficult to achieve as, IMO, would require a rule change. Unlike the 800k seeded in a Thai bank account, the 65k/month is supposed to be income. Hard to see how this could be proven beyond reasonable doubt to TI simply by depositing the 65k in a Thai bank account, it could be drawn from your savings or some other source.

if you are retired it isn't income it will be drawn from saving and in some cases pension checks which can be income. I doubt they will really care where it comes from as long as you have 65,000deposited each month

[Kerryd]

2 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

Something of a myth not being able to open a bank account, none seem to turn you away if you half 400-800k to open it with.

Yeah, I've never had a problem opening a bank account, even when all I had was a 30 day stamp in my passport and a Certificate of Residence. First account I ever opened, all I deposited was 1,000 baht. No hassles, no questions, no problems.

 

I suspect that a lot of people who tried to open accounts were living in hotels/guest houses and asking for "chequing" accounts and when turned down (because they were staying in a frikken hotel - or were asking for a Chequing account) started spreading stories about how it's all a conspiracy (yadda yadda). 

But of course, it's never their fault. It's always the (bank/government/anti-foreigner brigade/etc) whose to blame.
 

[Spidey]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Which country offers a significant return on a property investment of only £18,500 or so?

AS I said, I was planning to invest all of my spare money in it, considerably more than £18,500. North West England. Was hoping to achieve 5-10% return on my investment.

[Miami007]

Before blaming the US/ UK/ AUS embassies - let's look at how the income verification was handled

a) did the embassy (part of US State Department) contact the Social Security Administration back in the USA to receive accurate information on the amount of the monthly pension?  And did they check every bank account/ 401K account to verify balances etc? This is what would need to happen, if the "verification" were to be valid

or b) did they simply sign a piece of paper completed by the expat stating that they received a certain sum of money every month/ had a certain amount of assets.  this would amount to a self-verification by the expat with a meaningless signature of an embassy official

 

Given the large number of retirees it seems rather difficult to properly check a) every single year.

Below a link to the US Embassy in Thailand and what they will and won't do

https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/what-we-can-and-cannot-do/ 

[Spidey]

Just now, Kerryd said:

Yeah, I've never had a problem opening a bank account, even when all I had was a 30 day stamp in my passport and a Certificate of Residence. First account I ever opened, all I deposited was 1,000 baht. No hassles, no questions, no problems.

Same here but going by threads on this board, all that has changed in the last 12 months.

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Come to Pattaya, I see several regularly.

I used to live in the area for years - never saw a foreign-beggar.  Saw some poorer expat-housing, on the dark-side - but those pensioners seemed to be minding their own business, not bothering anyone.

[Wake Up]

12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Agree that it was never TI's intention to get rid of expats. However, the method that was suggested to you by the IO would be difficult to achieve as, IMO, would require a rule change. Unlike the 800k seeded in a Thai bank account, the 65k/month is supposed to be income. Hard to see how this could be proven beyond reasonable doubt to TI simply by depositing the 65k in a Thai bank account, it could be drawn from your savings or some other source.

I think the reasons for these changes are two fold.  One to make money go into Thailand banks and two to make sure people that are here can afford to live here. So the word income can mean one thing in the English language and another in the Thai language. If you transfer 65k a month from investments or pension or whatever it is 65 k of income from somewhere. Does not have to come from an employer or pension as I can pay myself 65 k a month if I want to as many people don’t have pensions anymore in my age group under 60. We saved money from our incomes for our own retirement with no pension from any company or military etc ....

[Spidey]

Just now, Miami007 said:

Before blaming the US/ UK/ AUS embassies - let's look at how the income verification was handled

a) did the embassy (part of US State Department) contact the Social Security Administration back in the USA to receive accurate information on the amount of the monthly pension?  And did they check every bank account/ 401K account to verify balances etc? This is what would need to happen, if the "verification" were to be valid

or b) did they simply sign a piece of paper completed by the expat stating that they received a certain sum of money every month/ had a certain amount of assets.  this would amount to a self-verification by the expat with a meaningless signature of an embassy official

The situation for the British Embassy is notr the same as the Aus/US embassies. They did require you to submit documentation from a proscribed list, to verify your income. It's a question of semantics around the word "verify". Yes, they did verify income by examining the submitted documents. No, they didn't verify the documents. It's my opinion that the BE letters became a problem when they added the caveat that they didn't verify the documents.

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I used to live in the area for years - never saw a foreign-beggar.  Saw some poorer expat-housing, on the dark-side - but those pensioners seemed to be minding their own business, not bothering anyone.

See one hanging about outside Tesco Lotus on Sukhumvit regularly. A classic tramp. Have seen others around Soi Buakhau.

[Wake Up]

6 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I used to live in the area for years - never saw a foreign-beggar.  Saw some poorer expat-housing, on the dark-side - but those pensioners seemed to be minding their own business, not bothering anyone.

I recently saw several sleeping on the beach when I worked out early in the am. Also had a guy stand outside Bangkok bank on soi Buakhao trying to tell some sad story to borrow 10,000 baht to get to his “home country”. See some also in Bangkok but more in Pattaya. Sad really but if I was Thailand I would not want the financial burden of these expats when they get sick or desperate to steal to get by. 

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

Does not have to come from an employer or pension as I can pay myself 65 k a month if I want to as many people don’t have pensions anymore in my age group under 60.

I'm not sure that would satisfy TI, it wouldn't have satisfied the British Embassy for them to provide you with an income letter. IMO, people who are living off their savings, over and above the return on their investments would be expected to show financial viability by depositing 800k in a Thai bank account.

[Russell17au]

2 hours ago, jvs said:

These changes do not affect me as of yet but in my home country a call from the Embassy to my pension fund would go as follows,

Ring ring,Pension funds how can i help you?

Yes this is the embassy in bangkok,i would like to know if the amount mister jvs shows as income from your office is true.

Pension fund :sorry there are privacy laws and we can not give you any information about this,have a nice day:

You see people the embassies can not verify your income even if they wanted to!

How about we change a couple of things in your story.

How about I sign into my pension fund through my username and password and answer a security question that only I know. Then once inside my pension fund I request a certified secured income statement that is accepted as verified by my embassy or I can sign authorization to release my pension payment details to my embassy. Verification done by embassy.

[pookiki]

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Posted 2 hours ago

I will explain how the Dutch embassy works related to this topic. The embassy provides a so-called "visa support letter", they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017.

 

For a fee of 50 euro (57 USD) they check your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL.

 

From the embassy's website:

 

"In the new situation (2017), the signature will no longer be legalized under a declaration of income drawn up by you, but the Dutch embassy will issue a so called "visa support letter" for the purpose of applying for a residence permit from the Thai authorities. In this letter, the embassy confirms that you declare to receive a monthly income from the Netherlands and that the amount stated in the letter has been demonstrated by submission of supporting documents."

 

You supply the embassy with copies of documents like bank statements, pension or salary statements, tax return statements stating your gross and net annual income. Then they provide you with the following letter:

 

"To: Immigration Office

The Ambassador of the Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok herewith confirms: <Name: ..., Date of birth:..., etc>

 

has declared to have residence <residence Thailand> and to receive a monthly income of <amount in euro> as has been documented by him/her through (electronic) banking statements/official pension statements from the Netherlands/statement Tax Department from the Netherlands.

 

The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be grateful for any assistance you can provide to Mr <XXX> in order to obtain his/her visa/residence permit.

 

For the Ambassador,

<signature>

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs"

 

Sofar no news of change of plans by the embassy published on their website. It is maybe fortunate that they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017 already. Hope it stays like this.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

I cut and pasted this post from another thread (Just received some bad news for US citizens)-- I am posting it because the manner in which the Netherlands is addressing this issue for their expat community should serve as a template for the UK/US/and Australia Embassies!  This is the solution I had been contemplating for some time!!

[Spidey]

Just now, Russell17au said:

How about we change a couple of things in your story.

How about I sign into my pension fund through my username and password and answer a security question that only I know. Then once inside my pension fund I request a certified secured income statement that is accepted as verified by my embassy or I can sign authorization to release my pension payment details to my embassy. Verification done by embassy.

Would be simplicity itself for me. Great idea! Doubt that IO would go for it though as they like their paper and don't accept information provided on mobile phones.

[Spidey]

Just now, pookiki said:

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Posted 2 hours ago

I will explain how the Dutch embassy works related to this topic. The embassy provides a so-called "visa support letter", they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017.

 

For a fee of 50 euro (57 USD) they check your income related documents as provided by authorised sources like banks, employer or pension provider and tax department in NL.

 

From the embassy's website:

 

"In the new situation (2017), the signature will no longer be legalized under a declaration of income drawn up by you, but the Dutch embassy will issue a so called "visa support letter" for the purpose of applying for a residence permit from the Thai authorities. In this letter, the embassy confirms that you declare to receive a monthly income from the Netherlands and that the amount stated in the letter has been demonstrated by submission of supporting documents."

 

You supply the embassy with copies of documents like bank statements, pension or salary statements, tax return statements stating your gross and net annual income. Then they provide you with the following letter:

 

"To: Immigration Office

The Ambassador of the Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok herewith confirms: <Name: ..., Date of birth:..., etc>

 

has declared to have residence <residence Thailand> and to receive a monthly income of <amount in euro> as has been documented by him/her through (electronic) banking statements/official pension statements from the Netherlands/statement Tax Department from the Netherlands.

 

The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands would be grateful for any assistance you can provide to Mr <XXX> in order to obtain his/her visa/residence permit.

 

For the Ambassador,

<signature>

Deputy Head of Consular and Internal Affairs"

 

Sofar no news of change of plans by the embassy published on their website. It is maybe fortunate that they changed their fraught-prone system in 2017 already. Hope it stays like this.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

I cut and pasted this post from another thread (Just received some bad news for US citizens)-- I am posting it because the manner in which the Netherlands is addressing this issue for their expat community should serve as a template for the UK/US/and Australia Embassies!  This is the solution I had been contemplating for some time!!

Which is exactly what the British Embassy have been doing for a number of years. Go figure (I can't).

[Wake Up]

15 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I'm not sure that would satisfy TI, it wouldn't have satisfied the British Embassy for them to provide you with an income letter. IMO, people who are living off their savings, over and above the return on their investments would be expected to show financial viability by depositing 800k in a Thai bank account.

You could be correct but I was just reporting what the supervisor at CW told me for my extension next year 800 k in the bank three months before or transfer 65k a month every month to a thai bank account. She spoke English well and was clear about her instructions and told me this before the USA embassy announced they were going to stop issuing income affidavits. 

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Would be simplicity itself for me. Great idea! Doubt that IO would go for it though as they like their paper and don't accept information provided on mobile phones.

Can you not read? Nowhere is it mentioned about a mobile phone. Plus if you bother to read my post properly there is nothing said about the IO, it is for the embassy. If you read it properly you are either getting a verifiable certified document from your pension fund or you are giving your permission to your pension fund to release the information to the embassy.

[Spidey]

Just now, Wake Up said:

You could be correct but I was just reporting what the supervisor at CW told me for my extension next year 800 k in the bank three months before or transfer 65k a month every month to a thai bank account. She spoke English well and was clear about her instructions and told me this before the USA embassy announced they were going to stop issuing income affidavits. 

I don't doubt you, but would love to know what criteria they will use to find the 65k proof of income acceptable when coming into a Thai bank account.

I currently bring well in excess of 65k/month into Thailand. However, I withdraw it from my UK credit card, in my bank branch, deposit most of it in my Thai bank account and put the rest as cash in my wallet. I can't see TI accepting that as proof of income. Not possible for me to have my UK pension deposited directly into my Thai bank account.

[Spidey]

22 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Can you not read? Nowhere is it mentioned about a mobile phone. Plus if you bother to read my post properly there is nothing said about the IO, it is for the embassy. If you read it properly you are either getting a verifiable certified document from your pension fund or you are giving your permission to your pension fund to release the information to the embassy.

Sorry, yes misread your quote. However, the British Embassy have insisted in processing your letter through post or email. No way will they see you in person. Can't get through the gates of the Embassy for love nor money.

 

I have always provided a certified secured income statement from my pension company to the British Embassy. However, they now say that they can't verify this due to the Data Protection Act. Yes, I know that's rubbish but that's their story and they're sticking to it.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Spidey

[impulse]

I wonder how many bitter, self righteous (but formerly legal) expats who have reveled at the expulsion of everyone who cannot meet the visa requirements are now getting bit in the ass by this.  And scrambling to figure out how they can stay legal themselves.

 

Since I first moved to Thailand in 2011, lots of guys who were "perfectly legal" at the time have had their status changed by a declaration by immigration or a policy change by their own country.  So I have some compassion for those whose status suddenly changes- even the guys who will now find themselves on the backside of their own tirades against “visa scoundrels”.

 

There but for the grace of God...  (Not me, BTW.  I repatriated this year- on my own.  I may come back to Thailand, but the jury is still out on that)

 

[Caine]

Face facts, Thais don’t want you here and embassies not interested, why should an embassy help someone who doesn’t want to live in their country of birth, not a good reflection on the home country. Live with it couldn’t give a toss.

[Spidey]

10 minutes ago, Caine said:

why should an embassy help someone who doesn’t want to live in their country of birth,

They still pay tax and don't get any of the benefits. Takes a big burden off the taxpayer, in their home country.

[direction BANGKOK]

5 hours ago, HappyAndRich said:

What do you use then? 800K? Welcome to the club. The few and selected.

I just run in and out and get non-o's. I think I could have used those letters, but I never felt comfortable, not that i am some saint or anything. 

[Time Traveller]

Again, for the slow learners, Embassies and Embassy workers are not trained to verify income. That's why we have the IRS.

The problem that so many of you have your knickers in a twist over, is caused by Thai immigration, not the embassies.

All Thai immigration has to do is accept a Tax return as the income verification. This is simple, and should be easy for any one to do if they really do have the minimum income. (Who would lie on a tax return to OVERSTATE their income? You would end up paying more taxes) Especially Americans.

 

Any protesting to the embassies is just a waste of time. Instead you should be protesting to the Thai immigration department.

For once, I'm actually proud how the Embassies are standing up to the stupid demands of Thai authorities.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Time Traveller

[Time Traveller]

3 hours ago, Wake Up said:

I think the reasons for these changes are two fold.  One to make money go into Thailand banks and two to make sure people that are here can afford to live here. So the word income can mean one thing in the English language and another in the Thai language. If you transfer 65k a month from investments or pension or whatever it is 65 k of income from somewhere. Does not have to come from an employer or pension as I can pay myself 65 k a month if I want to as many people don’t have pensions anymore in my age group under 60. We saved money from our incomes for our own retirement with no pension from any company or military etc ....

The issue is not language. Income is defined by every countries own unique tax laws. Some things considered income in USA for example are not considered income in Thailand as per their tax laws.

 

 

[gk10002000]

Literally write to Congress members also.  And I even once got a response from a Senator (his aide no doubt) on an issue I raised years ago.  So you never know.  One of them may be on some oversight committee or have a contact in the State Department

[gk10002000]

2 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

Again, for the slow learners, Embassies and Embassy workers are not trained to verify income. That's why we have the IRS.

The problem that so many of you have your knickers in a twist over, is caused by Thai immigration, not the embassies.

All Thai immigration has to do is accept a Tax return as the income verification. This is simple, and should be easy for any one to do if they really do have the minimum income. (Who would lie on a tax return to OVERSTATE their income? You would end up paying more taxes) Especially Americans.

 

Any protesting to the embassies is just a waste of time. Instead you should be protesting to the Thai immigration department.

For once, I'm actually proud how the Embassies are standing up to the stupid demands of Thai authorities.

No!  A tax return does not necessarily show passive investment income.  For example, I get ~ 25k in my traditional IRA, and about 20k in my ROTH IRA.  But those monies do NOT show up as income unless I withdraw those monies from those accounts!  Then yes, those distributions are listed (both taxable and taxed) on the first page of the US 1040 tax form.  My regular brokerage account passive investment income is also about $25 k and those monies, both taxable and tax free are shown on the 1040. 

[gk10002000]

5 hours ago, Spidey said:

I don't doubt you, but would love to know what criteria they will use to find the 65k proof of income acceptable when coming into a Thai bank account.

I currently bring well in excess of 65k/month into Thailand. However, I withdraw it from my UK credit card, in my bank branch, deposit most of it in my Thai bank account and put the rest as cash in my wallet. I can't see TI accepting that as proof of income. Not possible for me to have my UK pension deposited directly into my Thai bank account.

You hit the nail on the head.  Just showing some transfers in, does NOT prove the person has repeatable steady income!  It could be borrowed money, it could be spending down a lump sum that may only last a few months, etc.  Hardly a solid proof of steady retirement income

[Joe Mcseismic]

6 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

I'm trying to see it that way, but must be missing something - so why, exactly, is that a problem, from the Thai perspective? 

And, btw, that 20K is well above "Thai style" for the vast majority of Thais - 2 "relatively good" Thai salaries worth of "free money" pouring into the country per poor-expat - never mind those who have 65K and up.

 

And, of course, many with 800K "savings" don't have high-incomes - live on a bit of social-security / state-pension money.

You think 20,000 Bt is two "relatively good" salaries? You do know that minimum wage is around 9000 Bt per month, right?

Sorry, but the average wage were I live is around 15,000 Bt a month and 20,000 Bt is common. The Thais want well-heeled retirees, that's why they have set the amounts to what they are. Actually, I'm surprised it isn't more.

Can you live on 20,000 Bt without health insurance? Before you say, "well, I can bring it in from my savings from overseas when I need it", that doesn't count. Not now. The Thais want to see true verification of your worth. It's already been agreed that this is impossible. Privacy laws, not the remit of the embassies and refusal of TI to do it. What has changed is that the easiest and best way for TI to make sure that you meet their monetary requirements is to see it in a Thai bank with a bank letter.

It's TI's ball and they set the rules of the game. They actually haven't changed those rules, they've just woken up to the fact that embassy letters are not true verification, at least, not in their eyes. Which is why they asked the embassies to actually verify income, the embassies can't do that, so, they've stopped issuing what could be construed as a false document. "But, what about all the other embassies still giving out letters?" you might ask.

I think that in the future more embassies will stop issuing them, or TI will stop accepting them.

This is all about the money and the Thais hold all the cards. We'll just have to wait and see what happens in January when people who don't know about this rock up to TI for their annual extension.

[Curt1591]

7 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

Something of a myth not being able to open a bank account without a WP, none seem to turn you away if you have 400-800k to open it with.

When was the last time you walked in with 400~800k to open an account?

Yes; this is Thailand. Laws, rules, and regulations are fluid, and subject to interpretation. 

However, Nov 8, 2018, we walked into 3 different banks, 800,000 baht ready to transfer, and were turned away by all 3. Bangkok Bank was the only one that gave a "proof of residency" option and that will require certification from my embassy.