FYI - U.S. Consulate Chiang Mai town hall meeting November 20th Chiang Mai University

[JackThompson]

8 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Heck if hell of a lot more isn't covering a $25,000 one off payment you can't afford Thailand!

Yet many do - and they do just fine.  In your opinion, what choice of country would be better - quality-of-life relative to minimum-overhead - for someone with 40K to 65K baht/mo of income? 

[OJAS]

On 11/21/2018 at 1:00 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

FWIW, every time my Embassy pops up on the income letters issue, I get the distinct sense that the Embassy people doing the talking or writing on said subject have never actually personally had to deal with Thai Immigration as a private citizen.

 

Since they're all on diplomatic status, I don't know if they even have to set foot into an Immigration office themselves, or more likely, have a staff person that bundles up all their passports and documents and takes care of all the formalities. 

 

All I can say is, their expectations of Thai Immigration don't seem to match very well with what the common citizen folks have to deal with year in and year out.

 

@billd766 - exactly the very points you made about the British Embassy on that thread!

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

You are wrong and your bad mouthing of Thai authorities on this is just unfair and unjust.

Sure, if it all were that simple but are you aware of the asset possibilities and have you been reading all of the 1000's of posts regarding this?

People with 401 k's, 457 b's, rental properties, retirements, savings accounts. stocks, bonds, god I can go on and on. A tax return is actually the worst way to verify any of this I believe.

 

So no, they mostly will not have the "sophistication" to figure it out.  It is probably why many people in the world, particularly in the US hire experts to do their taxes.

Just to add, if it is so easy then why are so many of these governments now getting out of the business???

 

Have you ever dealt with Chiang Mai Immigration? You would understand my attitude if you did.

I am not interested in your 401K's, 457 b's etc. etc. An Australian tax return or Centrelink statement is not falsifiable, as it is an official document. Which is more than I can say for the income letters Americans have been using for decades.

[billd766]

19 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Have you ever dealt with Chiang Mai Immigration? You would understand my attitude if you did.

I am not interested in your 401K's, 457 b's etc. etc. An Australian tax return or Centrelink statement is not falsifiable, as it is an official document. Which is more than I can say for the income letters Americans have been using for decades.

So are the statements from my State, Military and occupational pension.

[totally thaied up]

16 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am not interested in your 401K's, 457 b's etc. etc. An Australian tax return or Centrelink statement is not falsifiable, as it is an official document. Which is more than I can say for the income letters Americans have been using for decades.

Our Australian Tax Return is very simple. Centrelink is the same. Very easy to understand and hard to fake and in general, on one piece of paper that even Immigration could not flap up reading. If we all would have been forced to show an Australian Tax Statement to our Embassy years ago, this would have been a non-issue. Que Sera Sera...

 

We are all in this boat now. I was at Immigration last week and both my agent and the Immigration Officers told me either 880/400K for next year. I will just comply with what they asking. Nothing we are going to do and say now will change things much.

[moe666]

On 11/23/2018 at 12:53 PM, kannot said:

Its  not their forte im afraid

It doesn't appear to be some of the people who want to stay here either. What could be simpler deposit 65,000b into a Thai Bank account monthly. pretty simple.

[JackThompson]

31 minutes ago, moe666 said:

It doesn't appear to be some of the people who want to stay here either. What could be simpler deposit 65,000b into a Thai Bank account monthly. pretty simple.

Will that really be all we have to do?  I hope so.  No word from immigration-central yet - just "no letter - no way - deposits don't count" from all but one local-source.

[JLCrab]

On 11/23/2018 at 9:41 PM, jackdd said:

I can't really imagine that they will ever accept 65k comming into a Thai bank account alone as prove for income, this is way too easy to fake (If they do accept this i really wonder what this change was for)

I send myself ...

If the "no less than" 65K baht monthly deposit route to extension of stay is actually approved, the IMM folks might very well be aware that such a scenario as above is possible but they just feel sorry for anyone who feels the need to do that and will look the other way.

Edited November 24, 2018 by JLCrab

[jacko45k]

8 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Yet many do - and they do just fine.  In your opinion, what choice of country would be better - quality-of-life relative to minimum-overhead - for someone with 40K to 65K baht/mo of income? 

Hard to know as I have only sampled Thailand recently. Perhaps Indonesia or Malaysia away from the big cities. Or Sri Lanka?

[JackThompson]

10 hours ago, JackThompson said:

19 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Heck if hell of a lot more isn't covering a $25,000 one off payment you can't afford Thailand!

Yet many do - and they do just fine.  In your opinion, what choice of country would be better - quality-of-life relative to minimum-overhead - for someone with 40K to 65K baht/mo of income? 

 

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

Hard to know as I have only sampled Thailand recently. Perhaps Indonesia or Malaysia away from the big cities. Or Sri Lanka? 

I doubt those cost much less than Thailand.  I've lived in pretty cheap areas of Latin America, but maybe 5K/mo savings vs Jomtien Beach (ocean-view, high-floor beach-block condo, restaurants-daily with a gf / later-wife).  40K/mo was plenty there - even less for a single-guy and/or Pattaya "dark-side" options.  Immigration depressing demand has crushed condo-rents.  And those who want more "elbow room" can go rural.

 

The signficant obstacle to "income-letter" expats living in Thailand is not cost of living, it is immigration - and whatever new policy may come out of this.  That's why they are here in the first place - they (we) know what it costs, because they have been doing it for years. 

[jacko45k]

5 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The signficant obstacle to "income-letter" expats living in Thailand is not cost of living, it is immigration - and whatever new policy may come out of this.  That's why they are here in the first place - they (we) know what it costs, because they have been doing it for years. 

I know quite a few who have the Thai bank aversion, or simply baulk as they make far more money on the $25,000 invested where it is, than in a Thai savings account. Sadly one friend is, as you suggest, surviving ok, but on less than 65,000 pcm and a 800k deposit is beyond him.

[sfokevin]

10 hours ago, totally thaied up said:

Our Australian Tax Return is very simple. Centrelink is the same. Very easy to understand and hard to fake...

A 14 year old with a bootleg copy of Phoshop could duplicate these in 20 minutes...

[Bill Miller]

One of the possible problems is that income and cash do not always match.
Currently my SS income is in excess of 47,000 baht/month, but after deductions for Medicare, etc., what could be shown as a deposit is more in the 43,000 baht range.
The greater part of my income is p[aid quarterly, harking back to Thai unfamiliarity with the concept of income averaging, and complicated by my 1099s, etc., showing only income, and not quarterly distribution from principle.
I do receive an annual statement from the bank of what my quarterly payout will be, but how to make that acceptable/understandable to TI?
I guess a deposit record in my BKK account is the only way for me to go. No way to show an historical "every month" at this point.
I can only hope they decide to accept a yearly average report from Bkk bank, if I can get them to produce one.
Nice if some "grace period" could be instituted for 2019, or hope Savan. continues its relaxed approach.

 

[hargri]

18 hours ago, SiamAndy said:

I recently opened an account with BK Bank and also used Transferwise. I just updated my Bankbook and indeed the Transferwise transaction shows as FTT.

Thanks for that, Andy. I'll probably switch banks for the transfer to make life easier. 

[rumak]

13 hours ago, OJAS said:

@billd766 - exactly the very points you made about the British Embassy on that thread!

some people need to hear the same thing at least twice ........and then they still don't get it.

 

here it is again: ( from TGJohn's post)

"All I can say is, their expectations of Thai Immigration don't seem to match very well with what the common citizen folks have to deal with year in and year out."

 

I am STILL waiting for actual real life experiences from anyone offering their "proof of income".  But y'all go ahead and keep fighting about what they will and won't.   

Edited November 25, 2018 by rumak

[rumak]

21 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

One of the possible problems is that income and cash do not always match.
Currently my SS income is in excess of 47,000 baht/month, but after deductions for Medicare, etc., what could be shown as a deposit is more in the 43,000 baht range.
The greater part of my income is p[aid quarterly, harking back to Thai unfamiliarity with the concept of income averaging, and complicated by my 1099s, etc., showing only income, and not quarterly distribution from principle.
I do receive an annual statement from the bank of what my quarterly payout will be, but how to make that acceptable/understandable to TI?
I guess a deposit record in my BKK account is the only way for me to go. No way to show an historical "every month" at this point.
I can only hope they decide to accept a yearly average report from Bkk bank, if I can get them to produce one.
Nice if some "grace period" could be instituted for 2019, or hope Savan. continues its relaxed approach.

 

Since being in thailand i have never had income that would qualify me for that method.  I do have savings and used the 400k method (thai daughter) until she was 21 and then they said....sorry, no more can use that .  haha   So i had a choice.   My choice was to put 800k in a thai bank.  Retirement extension.  I guess i could have screamed and fought and said how crazy they are.  Don't think it would have changed anything.  Hope you can make your situation work for you.  Stay calm and ask Immig. what your options are.   good luck

[onera1961]

19 hours ago, SiamAndy said:

I recently opened an account with BK Bank and also used Transferwise. I just updated my Bankbook and indeed the Transferwise transaction shows as FTT.

All my two dozen or so transferwise transfer to Bangkok bank shows FTT except three coded as CMB and SCB

[rumak]

21 hours ago, oobar said:

Absolutely correct, TallGuy.  At the American Embassy, they have no clue.  The (hugely expensive) taxpayer-paid perks for embassy personnel and their dependents cushion and protect them from the bureaucratic tediousness faced by those of us who look after ourselves.

Right on !!  oops, gotta go.   i think there's a drone flying overrrrrrrrrrrr

[skatewash]

2 hours ago, rumak said:

 

I am STILL waiting for actual real life experiences from anyone offering their "proof of income".  But y'all go ahead and keep fighting about what they will and won't.   

2

There's one credible report by an Aussie in Mukdahan proving income without an embassy income letter (and not qualifying for the 800,000 seasoned money in the bank option).  But one incident does not a trend make.  This was a few days ago and since then nothing.

[rumak]

1 hour ago, skatewash said:

There's one credible report by an Aussie in Mukdahan proving income without an embassy income letter (and not qualifying for the 800,000 seasoned money in the bank option).  But one incident does not a trend make.  This was a few days ago and since then nothing.

Yep....just one so far.   I suspect that since some embassies are still issuing letters till end of year that we

will not hear much till some people try the income method without one.  Till then its all speculation...14 pages of it so far and counting.  To be fair....a few posts offer some ideas.  Many others just turn into no you can't ...yes i can....why can't they.....etc.   I understand the concern by those who used the letters.  I trust thai banks (the larger ones).....never a problem in 20 plus years...So for me its the lump sum method.

[timkeen08]

On 11/22/2018 at 8:38 AM, ubonjoe said:

The SSA-1099 I get in the mail in January every year would be very hard to fake. It comes as one of those tear off the ends and peel apart letters that is 2 sided and about 17 inches long. About the same for letter I get in December stating my benefits for next year that is 21 inches long.

I agree and hope they will be acceptable US Government documents for proof of income in all future extensions.

[Bill Miller]

Let me see if I have this right.
I have a nice, crisp "non O"or whatever  ME visa from Savan. issued in September. I have been doing a "bounce" every 90 days to avoid the whole, to me, confusing tangle at Jomtien ever since the "backroom lady" told me I could smooth difficulty away by handing her 16,000 baht.
Now, can I get a one year extension at any time during the year when a 90 day comes due? Thinking get a last embassy income letter and use it in June to get a one year, then get all the ducks lined up for "what is", which presumably will be more or less established by then.
Might eve be able to get a marriage license and squirrel away 40,000 in that tima frame. ????

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, timkeen08 said:

I agree and hope they will be acceptable US Government documents for proof of income in all future extensions.

The only proof of income in the future is 'incoming to Thailand,' i.e., your passbook. Besides Photoshop, you've got real world FX to consider. Not to mention 'disposable' income, which isn't what your Gov't document necessarily indicates, even with a steady FX rate. But considering the latter:

 

"Good morning, my name is Jose. Here's my Venezuelan social security statement. No, this is not a joke. My currency is backed by the full faith of our glorious bus driver Presidente."

Quote

IMF projects Venezuela inflation will hit 1,000,000 percent in 2018. (Reuters) - Venezuela's inflation rate is likely to top 1,000,000 percent in 2018, an International Monetary Fund official wrote on Monday, putting it on track to become one of the worst hyperinflationary crises in modern history.

Passbook please.

 

I know, I know -- this is all getting very repetitive. But do you really think Immigration is going to be interested in anything other than your cash here in Thailand......?

 

[rumak]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Might eve be able to get a marriage license and squirrel away 40,000 in that tima frame. ????

if you think thai immigration rules are difficult to figure out................wait till you get married !

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Let me see if I have this right.
I have a nice, crisp "non O"or whatever  ME visa from Savan. issued in September. I have been doing a "bounce" every 90 days to avoid the whole, to me, confusing tangle at Jomtien ever since the "backroom lady" told me I could smooth difficulty away by handing her 16,000 baht.
Now, can I get a one year extension at any time during the year when a 90 day comes due? Thinking get a last embassy income letter and use it in June to get a one year, then get all the ducks lined up for "what is", which presumably will be more or less established by then.
Might eve be able to get a marriage license and squirrel away 40,000 in that tima frame. ????

Yes.  In Jomtien, you can apply up to 30-days before the end of any permitted-stay stamp from your Non-O Visa for an extension based on marriage to a Thai.  No more dealing with the non-o scam. 

But, what comes next may be only moderately better.  If you own your own condo, expect a few trips to the "family desk" to get different pics, and other possible runarounds - but it is possible.  If you rent, all I can say is "good luck," because they have targeted renters for the "agent only" treatment.  Not saying it's impossible, if you have a very cooperative landlord, but prepare for several landlord-doc requests, designed to make your landlord hate the very thought of you. 

 

Perhaps start an extra Non-O-ME stamp early, so if they try to "time you out" with runarounds on your permission of stay and income-letter (something they seem to have learned from Chang Mai, to force agent-payoffs), you get another shot at them on the next out/in. 

 

This all assumes your wife can handle the abuse.  Mine begged me not to go back again after some attempts.  She should be prepared to be treated as if she is a "traitor to her race and nation" for marrying you.  Then, if they are not so harsh that day, you can both be pleasantly surprised. 

 

Perhaps the expected gravy-train from the embassy-letters going away will make them happy for awhile - at least until their tolerance builds up to the higher-dosage of brown-envelope agent-crack, whereupon the process will undoubtedly repeat with clenched-teeth and angry stares, followed by a new underhanded maneuver to up the dosage, again.

[Bill Miller]

17 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Yes.  In Jomtien, you can apply up to 30-days before the end of any permitted-stay stamp from your Non-O Visa for an extension based on marriage to a Thai.  No more dealing with the non-o scam. 

Thanks, Jack.
   Yes, I am aware (now) of the anti Thai/farang marriage attitude at Jomtien. <removed>
I was thinking of doing this on my Non-O based on retirement before converting to one based on marriage.
Do you think there would be less hassle going that route?
If timed right vis a vis one last embassy income letter I can (honestly) state that I have more than 65,000 baht/month income.
   Then we can change to "extension based on marriage".

Edited November 26, 2018 by ubonjoe
off topic comment removed

[timkeen08]

16 hours ago, JimGant said:

The only proof of income in the future is 'incoming to Thailand,' i.e., your passbook. Besides Photoshop, you've got real world FX to consider. Not to mention 'disposable' income, which isn't what your Gov't document necessarily indicates, even with a steady FX rate. But considering the latter:

 

"Good morning, my name is Jose. Here's my Venezuelan social security statement. No, this is not a joke. My currency is backed by the full faith of our glorious bus driver Presidente."

Passbook please.

 

I know, I know -- this is all getting very repetitive. But do you really think Immigration is going to be interested in anything other than your cash here in Thailand......?

 

It's quite a pity when one looses all hope.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Thanks, Jack.
   Yes, I am aware (now) of the anti Thai/farang marriage attitude at Jomtien. I remember the problems mixed race couples faced in the southern US.
I was thinking of doing this on my Non-O based on retirement before converting to one based on marriage.
Do you think there would be less hassle going that route?
If timed right vis a vis one last embassy income letter I can (honestly) state that I have more than 65,000 baht/month income.
   Then we can change to "extension based on marriage".

The retirement-desk in Jomtien is reported to be very friendly and efficient.  I would do this if I were in your shoes.  After another year, issues regarding income-qualifications should be better-understood.

[albertik]

I am curious; did anybody or the consulate make  mention of the Social Security Admin./ Bangkok Bank New York branch/ debacle re: ACH verses IAT benefits transmission to Thailand?

[dave s]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:40 PM, Sheryl said:

Again, depends on your bank. They cannot tell from my passbook if a transfer was international. Apparently with some banks you can.

 

Doesn't matter unless they decide to require proof that funds came from abroad.

I am trying to get set up for retirement in Thailand.

 

At the end of September I opened an account at Bangkok Bank for direct deposits through their New York City commercial branch, and also a regular, retail savings account in Phuket. It was necessary to go to the main office on Phangnga Road to do this: every other branch in the province is a "microbank".

 

Initially, US Social Security sent me 3 paper benefit checks, which the bank put into my NYC account the day the accounts were opened. It shows in my passbook as "FDD" (a check is technically a "demand deposit").

 

The November 3 check arrived automatically into my NYC account, where my passbook shows it as "FTT". You can't touch this money yourself, you must go to any branch and ask a bank manager to move it into your regular savings. Then I can do whatever I want with it, and have an ATM card. I haven't asked them to do this yet.

 

One more paper check was issued before I could get the bank number of NYC and the account number of my regular savings registered with SSA (it always takes at least a month to get mail here from USA or PI). It was necessary to go to Phangnga branch again: the microbanks refused to deposit it, "because we aren't set up to handle money". Again, it lists as "FDD" in my passbook.

 

As an experiment, I sent some money from a USA credit union to my regular Bangkok Bank savings account with TransferWise. They told me a Wells Fargo address to send to, and it quickly arrived in my savings account marked "FFT". No problems, helpful customer service at both SDFCU and TW. You do not need a USA address to get set up with TransferWise, but they must follow the "know your customer" rules, and will ask you to upload a scan or photo of your passport, and a foreign address verification such as a lease or utility bill.

 

I have also been able to make SWIFT transfers from an SCB savings account to SDFCU in USA.

 

So I think I will be able to move money back and forth OK, even after April next year. Note that Bangkok Bank set up my accounts successfully after most of the recent discussion on ThaiVisa about IAT versus ACH, but the transfer was a direct deposit, and from US SSA rather than an ordinary bank.

 

What is the deal on "proof that funds came from abroad"? With an embassy letter, do they usually not check any further, unless make the IO suspicious? With the deposit method, or the combined letter and deposit method, when do they check that the deposited funds are foreign? Is it just when you do your marriage or retirement application for the first time? Or do they want you to prove it on every renewal? I had bank letters for balance and for foreign origin for both accounts (B400) , showed the passbooks and gave them photocopies; will this always be necessary? A response on another discussion here suggested a kind of account (not at Bangkok Bank) that pays (somewhat) better interest, but wouldn't moving the money back and forth around the 3 month "seasoning" destroy the evidence it originally came from abroad?