Denmark Embassy Has Stopped Doing Pension Letters

[Thaidream]

11 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Nobody has ever said there was not an agreement of some type at some stage. I firmly believe though, the Embassy's are under the impression the 6 month valid letter will always be exactly that. Valid for 6 months. They may not be once the door closes on obtaining anymore letters. What is irrefutable is that nobody can or will guarantee, just how long that agreement will be upheld. You going back to your embassy and complaining, may make you feel better but will it change anything? Absolutely not.

The notice from the US Embassy indicates that the letters will be issued until 31 December 2018 and they will be good for 6 months and that Thai Imm has verified that   applicants can apply early.  As part of their information- they indicated that  a negotiation and meeting took place between they and Thai Imm.

 

If this is not honored by Thai Imm that means that there is an issue to be discussed between the Embassy and Thai Imm on behalf of their citizens.  I would assume a diplomatic mission would go to the Head of Thai Imm and say we had an agreement and it needs to be honored.  This is not about complaining, it is about not misleading people or lying in the face of people.

 

I have to also believe that when a diplomatic mission meets with a foreign entity like Thai Imm- there is a written record and in that written record there is certainly who said what to whom and what was agreed,

 

You seem to not understand how life changing this maybe for some people.  I have the funds but I am concerned that some people will need to sell assets; borrow funds or make life changing decisions.  

The Embassies' actions show me they do not understand any of  this and could have negotiated a much longer transition.  You have claimed that you are privy to certain information an if so then you know whether there was an agreement or not.  If there was one then I am expecting it will be upheld/honored .  That is the least that  the Embassies' owe to their citizens.

[Jingthing]

The U.S. embassy can say what they like about whether the letters will be honored for six months, or not. But bottom line they have ZERO authority on the matter when the applicants actually go in with the old letters.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Jingthing

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, Jingthing said:

The U.S. embassy can say what they like about how whether the letters will be honored for six months, or not. But bottom line they have ZERO authority on the matter when the applicants actually go in with the old letters.

Finally and at last. Somebody who actually understands how this works.
For those still struggling, I suggest taking it in the same context of 'We have no plans to stop the income letters/affidavits' just a day before they stopped them.

[Nielsk]

20 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Please prove it...

This has been discussed several times on several thread in last 4 weeks, but I still saw nowhere any figures about that. I do think Jackdd is right: a very small percent of expats not able to get these 400/800k

You prove Your assertion ! In danish FB forums You will be proved Wrong !  You  maybe know about Your own countrymen, but You don't have a clue about danish nationalities !

[Moonlover]

28 minutes ago, Nielsk said:

7 hours ago, jackdd said:

I think most people have 400/800k to put them in a bank. Maybe some just didn't want until now because they don't trust Thai banks, but if they are forced to do it they will do it.

So there are probably only a few percent of people who stay in Thailand and don't have 400/800k to put on a Thai bank account, these few percent will probably change to agents or multiple non-o visas now.

And just where does that bit of fanciful conjecture come from?

 

If there is only a small proportion of expats that not have the required capital, why is the loss of the income letters such a big issue?

[pookiki]

1 hour ago, perconrad said:

I am Danish and live full time in Thailand. Luckily I just renewed my extension in october using the income letter and now have almost a year to save for the next extension. I think I will change to married extension from retired. The Danish government old age pension is not as good as some here think, if You live outside the EU then the pension is just DKK 6,315 or about THB 31,575 before tax. Some have other pensions too and I am one of these, but not all have. It is very difficult to get a permanent residency for a wife from Thailand in Denmark, so it will be hard times ahead for some of my country men. Denmark do not like its citizen to move outside the EU. We do pay full tax to Denmark 37% of all our pensions even if we stay in Thailand, but get nothing in return. The Government also takes our voting rights for Folketinget-The parliament from us.

I hope everything works out for you as well.  There are many of us here that will struggle or leave.

[luckyluke]

Everything is relative.

 

I no have 800 neither 400.000.

 

Since 2000 I transfer +/- the equivalent of 900.000 ThB ( 12 x75000 ) yearly to Thailand and spend it.

 

Others have 400/800000 on a bankbook, but maybe only spend 30000 a month.

 

I am the one with the highest risk to have to leave the country.

[jlwilliamsjr18]

This stopping of income letters is ridiculous.  The US and I guess some others have done the same.  The Thai immigration has obviously put some pressure. I challenge Thai Gov. to look at the stats on retirement expats.  We're not bad folk, and I for one don't have 800 K to stash in the bank.  Like many, I live month to month on my pension plus I have some support from family, which I never use, but was included in the mix for my letter of income.  Agents will clean up, that is they don't put an end to that too.  SO... what's a retiree to do, if you don't have the 800K.  Is the way to itemize assets to meet the requirements or is the the nudge or shove to get rid of retirees, unless your rich.  Any light to shed on this would be appreciated. I'm spooked. 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Finally and at last. Somebody who actually understands how this works.
For those still struggling, I suggest taking it in the same context of 'We have no plans to stop the income letters/affidavits' just a day before they stopped them.

When I make an agreement with someone- and they tell me to my face that they will honor that agreement and then they don't=  I call them up and hold them accountable.

 

I am not struggling- but I suggest that  many people do not understand ethics and honoring an agreement.  Maybe lying is in vogue nowadays when  entities sit down and make agreements and  there is a written record of that agreement and people just shrug their shoulders and say- Oh well. 

 

I would hope an Embassy would not just shrug their shoulders and throw their citizens under the bus.

 

 

[Time Traveller]

Embarrassing for Thailand.

It's the Embassies way of telling the Thai Immigration department to stop being so stupid.

[Eagleizer]

I don`t get this. When I get income confirmation from my consulate,

I just go there with a copy of my pension papers and ask for a signed 

confirmation with the written amount. This paper, I give to the Immigration

office when applying for my yearly VISA. 

 

The paper from my consulate is not some paper from the Immigration

office that they have to fill in. There is nothing in that document that say

that my consulate guarantee my future pension. It only states my current

pension, a signature and a stamp. That's it...

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, Thaidream said:

When I make an agreement with someone- and they tell me to my face that they will honor that agreement and then they don't=  I call them up and hold them accountable.

 

I am not struggling- but I suggest that  many people do not understand ethics and honoring an agreement.  Maybe lying is in vogue nowadays when  entities sit down and make agreements and  there is a written record of that agreement and people just shrug their shoulders and say- Oh well. 

 

I would hope an Embassy would not just shrug their shoulders and throw their citizens under the bus.

 

 

It's never, ever been known for a government dept to lie!
And what exactly are you going to do in order to hold anybody accountable. Take them to court, Sue them...or simply wind yourself up over something you won't change or have any input over?

After multiple threads and thousands of posts, the same old, same old simply go's around in a never ending circle.
The only thing these threads have proved is the fact, many people never had the funds or income they stated they had or the income was tied up in such a way as not to be readily available.
Nobody has taken your income away. You haven't lost it over night. You are simply now going to have to deal in hard cash and not a promise on a worthless piece of paper.
No Embassy has thrown anybody under a bus. They cannot operate anymore the way they have been.
I have no idea why it is so hard for people to understand that it isn't the Embassy's call how this works.
Understand, they do not run the immigration act or dictate policy.
They can change nothing.

[Lovethailandelite]

3 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

Embarrassing for Thailand.

It's the Embassies way of telling the Thai Immigration department to stop being so stupid.

How is it embarrassing for Thailand? If there's any embarrassment, It's on the part of the Embassy's that have signing worthless pieces of paper and those citizens that never actually had in the way of income what they were stating.
You do realise, your not as important here as you assume? Thailand and Thai immigration really couldn't care less if you packed up and left tomorrow. There concern and target are tourists, that arrive, spend a heap of money and then leave.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

No Embassy has thrown anybody under a bus. They cannot operate anymore the way they have been.
I have no idea why it is so hard for people to understand that it isn't the Embassy's call how this works.
Understand, they do not run the immigration act or dictate policy.
They can change nothing

Then the Embassies' should comply with our requests and release the written documentation surrounding this whole issue and set the record straight.  I and others want the truth to come out. We, as tax paying citizens, do have a right to know what actually went on.

 

While I can quite realize that when sitting in an IO office and being asked to comply puts certain obligations on us as  long stay residents of Thailand- I have to believe  that people do have a right to know what the requirements are and expect that they will be carried out in a fair and equitable manner.

 

In relation to the Embassy letter- if my Embassy tells me it is good for 6 months after issuance- I would assume they actually know what they are talking about.  If I walk into a Thai immigration office and they refuse to honor the letter- I would  ask my Embassy to reaffirm the agreement they made with Thai Imm which was to enable a smooth transition just like they told me.

 

You seem to think all this is nothing- and  all the liars and cheats are complaining.  If you have read this forum you will realize that there are very different types of income streams and the majority of people have been honest about their income and simply want to know what is needed by every Thai Imm office so they can comply.  Up to now- the information filtering in shows some offices will accept the letters- others won't- some offices will accept  pension letters- others won't and on and on.  Try a little human compassion- instead of demonizing us all as malcontents.

[onera1961]

50 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I call them up and hold them accountable.

How r u going to that? When a agreement is not honored, a court decides what to do An I don't think US embassy (or others) is going to court to enforce it. We even don't know if there was an agreement

[onera1961]

12 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Then the Embassies' should comply with our requests and release the written documentation surrounding this whole issue and set the record straight. 

No embassy will do that. 

 

59 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I am the one with the highest risk to have to leave the country.

You are bringing more than the required. I would suggest shop for an agent. may be you have to spend a little less one month. 

[gintis0604]

Time to leave Thailand for westeners. 

The general will be happy with only Cheap Charlie Chineses as guests. 

There are plenty of other countries which welcome us. 

[Issanjohn]

20 hours ago, skatewash said:

This is the first embassy to stop issuing the letters with immediate effect, so perhaps a Danish citizen will be the first to test what Thai Immigration will do when one tries to use the income method with proof but without the required embassy income letter.

I know what I’m gonna do for next time in 2020 when they totally stop accepting the letter.  Next payday I’m gonna open a Thai bank account and just start transferring probably half of my monthly pension payments every month from my bank in the states into a Thai bank account and just keep my bank statements every month for every month throughout the year so I can verify my monthly income next time I do my extension in January 2020.  I mean I’m probably just gonna use the money I transfer over here to pay bills anyway and do whatever with the rest or just save what’s leftover.  This actually might be good for me because it’ll force me to budget myself better because I’ll just spend the money that I transfer to a Thai bank account and then save the money that I leave in my bank in the states because I make more than double the minimum monthly income requirement so I might as well use this situation to my advantage.  There’s always a bright side to everything even though it will be something extra we have to do such as opening the account here and then remembering to transfer at least the minimum monthly income requirement every month on payday.  

 

And at least I know that when I do my extension this time in January 2019 they should still accept my income affidavit this one last time according to what the United States Embassy has put out officially.  The United States Embassy said that it’s still valid at immigration for up to six months after the day it’s completed, at least for American citizens anyway and I’m sure it’s probably the same for everyone else as well but I don’t know what’s going on with Denmark.  The United States Embassy actually told me via email that our income affidavits will still be valid for up to six months after the date it’s completed going into the new year I actually have the official word in writing and they said that they got that information from Thai Immigration Bureau Officials.  They’ve also said that they are supposed to be supporting early renewals but they don’t specify how early but I might try to do it in December if they’ll let me.  If not according to the official guidance the income affidavit should still be valid in January since I’ll be well within 6 months because I’m getting my income affidavit done next week I have the appointment scheduled and I confirmed with the US embassy today via email that the current official guidance has not changed and that income affidavits for US citizens are still valid for up to six months after the date it’s completed.  

 

So I really don’t understand what’s up with Denmark because even the Australian Embassy is still doing it till January 7th I believe their website says.  

[onera1961]

2 hours ago, zydeco said:

When will we here of similar curtailment of affidavits from Asian and Middle Eastern countries' embassies?  So far, this looks targeted. 

I don't think most Asians (except Japan may be) and ME citizens retire in Thailand. They just come here for fun and frolics. 

[Issanjohn]

20 hours ago, skatewash said:

This is the first embassy to stop issuing the letters with immediate effect, so perhaps a Danish citizen will be the first to test what Thai Immigration will do when one tries to use the income method with proof but without the required embassy income letter.

I know what I’m gonna do for next time in 2020 when they totally stop accepting the letter.  Next payday I’m gonna open a Thai bank account and just start transferring probably half of my monthly pension payments every month from my bank in the states into a Thai bank account and just keep my bank statements every month for every month throughout the year so I can verify my monthly income next time I do my extension in January 2020.  I mean I’m probably just gonna use the money I transfer over here to pay bills anyway and do whatever with the rest or just save what’s leftover.  This actually might be good for me because it’ll force me to budget myself better because I’ll just spend the money that I transfer to a Thai bank account and then save the money that I leave in my bank in the states because I make more than double the minimum monthly income requirement so I might as well use this situation to my advantage.  There’s always a bright side to everything even though it will be something extra we have to do such as opening the account here and then remembering to transfer at least the minimum monthly income requirement every month on payday.  

 

And at least I know that when I do my extension this time in January 2019 they should still accept my income affidavit this one last time according to what the United States Embassy has put out officially.  The United States Embassy said that it’s still valid at immigration for up to six months after the day it’s completed, at least for American citizens anyway and I’m sure it’s probably the same for everyone else as well but I don’t know what’s going on with Denmark.  The United States Embassy actually told me via email that our income affidavits will still be valid for up to six months after the date it’s completed going into the new year I actually have the official word in writing and they said that they got that information from Thai Immigration Bureau Officials.  They’ve also said that they are supposed to be supporting early renewals but they don’t specify how early but I might try to do it in December if they’ll let me.  If not according to the official guidance the income affidavit should still be valid in January since I’ll be well within 6 months because I’m getting my income affidavit done next week I have the appointment scheduled and I confirmed with the US embassy today via email that the current official guidance has not changed and that income affidavits for US citizens are still valid for up to six months after the date it’s completed.  

 

So I really don’t understand what’s up with Denmark because even the Australian Embassy is still doing it till January 7th I believe their website says.  

[Issanjohn]

20 hours ago, skatewash said:

This is the first embassy to stop issuing the letters with immediate effect, so perhaps a Danish citizen will be the first to test what Thai Immigration will do when one tries to use the income method with proof but without the required embassy income letter.

I know what I’m gonna do for next time in 2020 when they totally stop accepting the letter.  Next payday I’m gonna open a Thai bank account and just start transferring probably half of my monthly pension payments every month from my bank in the states into a Thai bank account and just keep my bank statements every month for every month throughout the year so I can verify my monthly income next time I do my extension in January 2020.  I mean I’m probably just gonna use the money I transfer over here to pay bills anyway and do whatever with the rest or just save what’s leftover.  This actually might be good for me because it’ll force me to budget myself better because I’ll just spend the money that I transfer to a Thai bank account and then save the money that I leave in my bank in the states because I make more than double the minimum monthly income requirement so I might as well use this situation to my advantage.  There’s always a bright side to everything even though it will be something extra we have to do such as opening the account here and then remembering to transfer at least the minimum monthly income requirement every month on payday.  

 

And at least I know that when I do my extension this time in January 2019 they should still accept my income affidavit this one last time according to what the United States Embassy has put out officially.  The United States Embassy said that it’s still valid at immigration for up to six months after the day it’s completed, at least for American citizens anyway and I’m sure it’s probably the same for everyone else as well but I don’t know what’s going on with Denmark.  The United States Embassy actually told me via email that our income affidavits will still be valid for up to six months after the date it’s completed going into the new year I actually have the official word in writing and they said that they got that information from Thai Immigration Bureau Officials.  They’ve also said that they are supposed to be supporting early renewals but they don’t specify how early but I might try to do it in December if they’ll let me.  If not according to the official guidance the income affidavit should still be valid in January since I’ll be well within 6 months because I’m getting my income affidavit done next week I have the appointment scheduled and I confirmed with the US embassy today via email that the current official guidance has not changed and that income affidavits for US citizens are still valid for up to six months after the date it’s completed.  

 

So I really don’t understand what’s up with Denmark because even the Australian Embassy is still doing it till January 7th I believe their website says.  

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

6 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

I thought that as well, and was going to post it, but I checked and found this 

3. Channels to submit application

Applicant may submit their application at the Royal Thai embassy or Royal Thai Consulate-General in their home/residence country or at the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand located on Government Center B, Chaengwattana Soi 7, Laksi, Bangkok 10210, 

That is correct... you can get a 1-yr O-A visa in Thailand.

I flew in for 30-days visa-free, signed lease on condo, went to US embassy and got income affidavit then went to Thai Immigration and was granted a 3 mth O visa & 1-yr O-A visa both at the same time.

 

Also, met an American couple who just moved into our condo 1 month ago who's on their 3 mth O visa waiting until the 800k is seasoned before going back to get their 1-yr O-A visa

You cannot get a “1 year O-A visa” in Thailand.

 

You were granted a non ‘O’ visa as a prerequisite to an extension of stay, but you were not given “1-yr O-A”. You were given a permit granting a 1 year extension of stay.

[Issanjohn]

I don’t know why but whenever I’m using this device for some reason sometimes it sends my posts twice.  

[Issanjohn]

I don’t know why but whenever I’m using this device for some reason sometimes it sends my posts twice.  Sorry if my post went through twice I can’t help it.  

Edited November 15, 2018 by Issanjohn

[luckyluke]

14 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

You are bringing more than the required. I would suggest shop for an agent. may be you have to spend a little less one month. 

Well I am 70 and from the old school, never done something unlawful, will not start now.

 

 

[cyberfarang]

20 hours ago, Justin Side said:

The more the better.

Hopefully will hear from Thai Immigration soon with new requirements.

I doubt there will be any new requirements.

 

Thai immigration`s policy is proof of source of monthly income in the prescribed amounts with a confirmation embassy letter or the money in a Thai bank account option. 

 

No letter, than it has to be the Thai money in a bank option. I am hearing reports from friends that those using the money in a bank option as retirees are being asked to bring bank books that show monies going in and out and source of the monies being paid in dating back, some say 3 months others have told me 6 months, including the 800000 baht. This means those using agencies and other means to borrow money as loans to obtain their visas are going to have problems.

 

It seems immigration really mean business now.

 

BTW; the immigration dept in question here is Chiang Mai. Some of my friends have told me they were not asked to show deposits and withdraws in their bank books and a few have told me they did. So it seems this is slowly being implemented now.

 

Be prepared to show immigration what they want to see and tell them what they want to hear.

Edited November 15, 2018 by cyberfarang

[garyk]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

The U.S. embassy can say what they like about whether the letters will be honored for six months, or not. But bottom line they have ZERO authority on the matter when the applicants actually go in with the old letters.

I have a feeling you are dead right here. Curious to see what happens after Jan 1st.

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

The U.S. embassy can say what they like about whether the letters will be honored for six months, or not. But bottom line they have ZERO authority on the matter when the applicants actually go in with the old letters.

That is going to be a problem at some offices and even among some IOs in the same office. I shall be going in  several months early starting in the New year and ask specifically what will be accepted and not- write down their name and position and hope for the best. I will try and find the IO who actually signs the Passport .  

 

However,  I find it  quite hard to believe that the Us Embassy would misrepresent this situation to us.  They have explicitly told me these letters will be accepted for 6 months. Unfortunately,  if Thai Imm decides not to honor the letter I will have spent money on the letter, travel,  etc.  

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

35 minutes ago, gintis0604 said:

Time to leave Thailand for westeners. 

The general will be happy with only Cheap Charlie Chineses as guests. 

There are plenty of other countries which welcome us. 

Depends on your definition of "plenty" but it is correct that there are  a number of nations that offer legal retirement status for much less money than Thailand requires. Spanish helps. 

[Awk]

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

They don't check or verify (same thing) anything, they never have.

 

They just ask for a document confirming the income being claimed. To check/verify they would have to contact the source of the income to ask the source to confirm that the income claimed in the document was correct.

 

Nonsense.  To check or verify a document does not mean they have to contact the original source of the document to verify it's authenticity.  Contacting the original source is merely one, more thorough, way of verifying the document.  Another way is, as they do for other similarly non-critical verification, verify that the documents looks genuine "enough", and that the applicant has signed them, including signing that the applicant is aware providing fraudulent documents is a punishable crime.

 

The same type of income letters are used for a variety of other similar tasks, including as a guarantee of the financial ability of a Danish citizen to provide for a Thai citizen applying for a visa to visit Denmark.

 

While it cannot be expected that Thai immigration will try to make sense of various bank statements, tax statement, pension letters, and similar, which will all be in Danish, nor that Thai immigration should have any idea of how a genuine Danish tax statement should look, it is hardly too much to expect that Danish embassy staff should be able to do it without much work and then provide a letter attesting that everything looks to be in order. 

And  to the clowns who for some reasons seemed to think they would provide the letter in Danish: obviously the embassy provides this in English.  Not in Danish, Icelandic, or Gothic.

 

The fact that the Danish embassy is with immediate effect ceasing to provide this verification is appalling as it may very well leave many of it's citizens with no other choice than to leave Thailand in order to get enough seasoning time to switch to the 400/800k in the bank method.