Denmark Embassy Has Stopped Doing Pension Letters

[elviajero]

10 minutes ago, Awk said:

 

So what?  

Already the embassy is doing the verification every time a Danish citizen provides a financial guarantee for a Thai citizen that wants to visit Denmark.  This verification is as said based on the same papers as those previously provided for the income verification letter. 

 

It is your statement that the embassy cannot verify these papers that is nonsense I'm sorry to say, as the embassy already has whatever means it deems necessary in order to do the verification, and will undoubtedly continue having to perform this verification for other purposes anyway (e.g., processing visa applications for Thai citizens sponsored by Danish citizens).

 

No I’m not staying that. I am saying that a document on its own proves nothing and that they only way for the income to be verified is by the embassy contacting the issuer. Something some (so far) embassies are refusing to do. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by elviajero

[Russell17au]

11 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

What makes you think the Embassy would have access to the ATO or centerlink data. The embassy is a representation of the Australian government in Thailand, they are not a branch of the ATO or centerlink. I cant lodge my tax return or enquire about my pension at the Embassy. A bit of a strange assumption that the embassy has a computer in the corner with full access to all government and citizen data.

I can give my written authorization and my Centrelink account to the Australian Embassy and they can log-in to my account. They could do it if they wanted to. As long as they are given written authorization they can check anyone's accounts quite easy.

[totally thaied up]

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

11 minutes ago, Awk said:

 

No I’m not staying that. I am saying that a document on its own proves nothing and that they only way for the income to be verified is by the embassy contacting the issuer. Something done (so far) embassies are refusing to do. 

If you all think the Embassies have got electronic data matching to your tax files, your all got to be ultra paranoid. They would not even be able to data match interest on your bank account let alone know what you have for dinner. Even if I try to link my tax file number to a MyGov page on our main Government Web portal, it is almost impossible to do due to the enhanced security on offer in just answering questions that I have trouble filling and I am the owner of the account! This is our privacy we are talking about!

[Olmate]

Dead right, my gov ...tax very secure sites!

[jesimps]

2 hours ago, Awk said:

Nonsense.  To check or verify a document does not mean they have to contact the original source of the document to verify it's authenticity.  Contacting the original source is merely one, more thorough, way of verifying the document.  Another way is, as they do for other similarly non-critical verification, verify that the documents looks genuine "enough", and that the applicant has signed them, including signing that the applicant is aware providing fraudulent documents is a punishable crime.

 

The same type of income letters are used for a variety of other similar tasks, including as a guarantee of the financial ability of a Danish citizen to provide for a Thai citizen applying for a visa to visit Denmark.

 

While it cannot be expected that Thai immigration will try to make sense of various bank statements, tax statement, pension letters, and similar, which will all be in Danish, nor that Thai immigration should have any idea of how a genuine Danish tax statement should look, it is hardly too much to expect that Danish embassy staff should be able to do it without much work and then provide a letter attesting that everything looks to be in order. 

And  to the clowns who for some reasons seemed to think they would provide the letter in Danish: obviously the embassy provides this in English.  Not in Danish, Icelandic, or Gothic.

 

The fact that the Danish embassy is with immediate effect ceasing to provide this verification is appalling as it may very well leave many of it's citizens with no other choice than to leave Thailand in order to get enough seasoning time to switch to the 400/800k in the bank method.

 

I have similar thoughts, the embassy can't guarantee that a document is totally genuine otherwise every document they received in the course of their business would have to be verified and there'd be one almighty logjam. They can though accept an official document (with a stamp and signature) on face value, as most businesses these days do. What the Thais are demanding is like a 7-11 insisting on verifying a 1000 baht currency note before accepting it as payment for a bottle of pop. I think that's what immigration was insisting on, a verification that the documentation is genuine in the embassy's judgement, but the embassies as usual take it literally.

[Thaidream]

18 minutes ago, elviajero said:

don’t beleive the US embassy has had anything verified by immigration. They are simply quoting immigrations existing policy and assuming old style letters will be accepted for 6 months.

Then that is what they should say- it's called telling the truth. And if they simply indicated such  citizens could  plan  another  way. I  don't like subterfuge or  keeping the truth from people. They claimed hey met with Thai Imm- and what was the result?

[Awk]

4 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No I’m not staying that. I am saying that a document on its own proves nothing and that they only way for the income to be verified is by the embassy contacting the issuer. Something some (so far) embassies are refusing to do. 

 

To quote yourself: "They don't check or verify (same thing) anything, they never have."

That is wrong.   Were you to submit a home-made Mickey Mouse tax statement not even looking vaguely like the official one to the embassy, it would no doubt be rejected as an obvious forgery and possibly you would face criminal charges too.  They, the Danish embassy, do check and verify to the extent they deem necessary.  Even if you were to know exactly how the Danish embassy verifies these papers, your opinion on whether the verification is thorough enough or not is irrelevant.

[jesimps]

4 hours ago, Moonlover said:

And just where does that bit of fanciful conjecture come from?

 

If there is only a small proportion of expats that not have the required capital, why is the loss of the income letters such a big issue?

The big issue is whether immigration will accept another form of proof of income, at the moment they're still insisting on embassy letters. Also, for some it is a big issue, people have made financial decisions based on being able to (legally) use the income method ie bank accounts where people can't access their saving for a fixed period. Others have used their capital to buy a condo. There are lots of reasons why some can't raise the money in time for their next extension. Of course, it's no problem for you rich, I'm all right Jack types.

[jesimps]

31 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No I’m not staying that. I am saying that a document on its own proves nothing and that they only way for the income to be verified is by the embassy contacting the issuer. Something some (so far) embassies are refusing to do. 

"No I’m not staying that. I am saying that a document on its own proves nothing........."

 

If that was the case then I reckon business worldwide would come to a grinding halt. Unless you have suspicions otherwise, then official stamped and signed docs should be assumed to be genuine.

[Thaidream]

16 minutes ago, jesimps said:

The big issue is whether immigration will accept another form of proof of income, at the moment they're still insisting on embassy letters. Also, for some it is a big issue, people have made financial decisions based on being able to (legally) use the income method ie bank accounts where people can't access their saving for a fixed period. Others have used their capital to buy a condo. There are lots of reasons why some can't raise the money in time for their next extension. Of course, it's no problem for you rich, I'm all right Jack types.

The gentleman has a point- had their been notice many months ago- people may not have spent funds on condos, cars or other things and used the money regarding immigration issues.   There needs to be a real decent interval of a year instead of the way things are being handled. The Danish Embassy cutting off letters immediately is a disgrace and will put its citizens in  distress.

 

If this  is the best our Embassies can negotiate- I would suggest they all go home. We don;t need them. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Thaidream

[Awk]

I'm not sure if anyone has provided a full translation of the statement from the Danish embassy here yet: 

"Dette skyldes, at det juridisk set ikke er muligt for ambassaden i Bangkok at garantere over for de thailandske myndigheder, hvilken indkomst den enkelte person vil have i det kommende år."

 

Which one can translate to:

 

"This is because it is legally impossible for the embassy in Bangkok to provide a guarantee to the Thai government regarding what income the person will have in the coming year."

 

So it's, according to the statement above, not even a question on whether the income is verified or not, it's a question of whether the income will continue as indicated in salary/pension papers submitted.  Indeed, considering the entire country of Denmark could be wiped out by an unseen meteorite on any given day, one can hardly blame the Danish embassy for their reluctance to guarantee for any future income of their citizens past the present day and time.

 

[Peterw42]

43 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

I can give my written authorization and my Centrelink account to the Australian Embassy and they can log-in to my account. They could do it if they wanted to. As long as they are given written authorization they can check anyone's accounts quite easy.

Sure, they could log in using the public internet portal, MyGov etc. They could log in, via the internet, to my qantas frequent flyer account if I give them the login and password. They wouldn't have dedicated centerlink terminals connected to the centerlink network. The embassy is a branch of the Australian Government , The department of foreign affairs. They would have same access to centerlink data as the department of agriculture would.

The only database they would have direct access to would be passports and immigration, the things they deal with. 

Would you go to centerlink with a passport enquiry ?

 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Peterw42

[evadgib]

Immigration could make their own lives easier by granting PR to the vast number of long termers with a proven track record of doing things properly.

 

[Moonlover]

31 minutes ago, jesimps said:

There are lots of reasons why some can't raise the money in time for their next extension. Of course, it's no problem for you rich, I'm all right Jack types.

I am among the group who relies solely on income for my extensions and cannot possibly meet the capital sum requirements.

 

I strongly suggest that you read ALL of the thread before you make snide comments like that!

Edited November 15, 2018 by Moonlover

[Russell17au]

17 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Sure, they could log in using the public internet portal, MyGov etc. They could log in, via the internet, to my qantas frequent flyer account if I give them the login and password. They wouldn't have dedicated centerlink terminals connected to the centerlink network. The embassy is a branch of the Australian Government , The department of foreign affairs. They would have same access to centerlink data as the department of agriculture would.

The only database they would have direct access to would be passports and immigration, the things they deal with. 

Would you go to centerlink with a passport enquiry ?

 

You just don't have any idea of what you are talking about. If you did know then you would also know that you as an individual can give any organization your written authorization to access your nominated private information from another organization. I have used this many times and it works. 

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

How long have the lump-sum requirement been 400/800K?

It would be a double whammy if the requirement was adjusted a couple of years from now.

In the early 2000 immigration fees were substantially increased from around 500 baht to the current 1,900 baht and overstay fines increased from 200 to 500 baht overnight.

Could the same happen with the lump-sum requirement?

 

From Immigration Orders:

 

(6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been
consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following
criteria:
(a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with fluids
maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have
a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000
(b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual
fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less
than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000

 

Yes they could increase the lump sum requirements, but as previously, they would in my opinion 'grandfather' the lump sum requirement for those existing long term stayers aged over 60.

 

[Wake Up]

10 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Then apparently the  3 Embassies were lied to when they indicated they had  met with Thai Imm who had stated the letters would be good for 6 months from the date of issuance or even worse- they knew it and then lied to their citizens.

 

If the letters  being issued are not accepted  for 6 months-as was stated, I will be seeking a refund of monies paid, plus compensation for travel time; hotel and food from my Embassy,

One of the supervisors at CW told me the USA embassy income letter will be accepted if dated before January 1 and not older than 6 months from the date of the signed verification. If you are in Bangkok that is what they have been saying for over a month and announced before the USA embassy announced the new income letter verification policy.  For the rest of the immigration offices I am sure others have been told what will be expected. 

 

My problem with with the Danish Embassy is to cut it off immediately and refund money already paid for the expected income verification letter. That is unfair. 

[khunPer]

On 11/14/2018 at 3:15 PM, chickenslegs said:

This part of the notice confuses me. What are these one-year visas?

That is the newer One Year Retirement Visa you can get from the Thai embassy in Copenhagen (Denmark), same benefits as when applying for one-year extension based on retirement.

[DJ54]

2 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

One of the supervisors at CW told me the USA embassy income letter will be accepted if dated before January 1

The same is in the US Embassy website. Unfortunately the Danish Embassy pulled the plug with no time to prepare

[Foexie]

What is the issue of those embassies? They try to make some kind of statement or protest?

 

Guess i missed something because i don't have a clue why now they can't  give those papers anymore.

 

Does the Thai governement now asks for such special requirements the embassies could get in trouble when they do something wrong? Or do they ask such more effort about something they just can't give or do it?

 

 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Awk said:

 

To quote yourself: "They don't check or verify (same thing) anything, they never have."

That is wrong.   Were you to submit a home-made Mickey Mouse tax statement not even looking vaguely like the official one to the embassy, it would no doubt be rejected as an obvious forgery and possibly you would face criminal charges too.  They, the Danish embassy, do check and verify to the extent they deem necessary.  Even if you were to know exactly how the Danish embassy verifies these papers, your opinion on whether the verification is thorough enough or not is irrelevant.

This discussion started about the British embassy. They do not require original documents and will accept copies by email.

 

Clearly the Danish embassy do not check enough to satisfy immigrations new standards.

 

The only way to verify the income being claimed on a document is to contact the issuer of the document. Fact.

[strai8]

I bet the Danes welcome refugees with open arms though. what a slap in the face for their own citizens !

[khunPer]

33 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

From Immigration Orders:

 

(6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been
consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following
criteria:
(a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with fluids
maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have
a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000
(b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual
fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less
than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000

 

Yes they could increase the lump sum requirements, but as previously, they would in my opinion 'grandfather' the lump sum requirement for those existing long term stayers aged over 60.

That's what one always shall remember, the lump sum could increase with inflation. Looking at history, the changes came in larger jumps, I read some time ago that it increased from 400,000 baht to 800,000 baht for extension based on retirement. That's why one shall remember to set aside, or save up, for that situation, that eventually come one day.

 

Thailand Consumer Price Index index shows that October 2018 is 102.65, 1998 was around 75, so actually the 500,000 should be close to 700,000 today.

[DJ54]

Was probably caused by to many bucking the system and bragging about it. Perhaps the government asked the Embassy to be responsible for the verification. As in case with US Embassy they verify what your stating not that it’s true or not. 

 

Anyway hopefully this sorts out and fair to all. Danish got a bad deal hopefully their Embassy talks with Government and give some time to decide what to do. 

[Sydebolle]

Another embassy with common sense; the Thais will have to rewrite their list of how to make retirees lives more difficult again ???? 

[North]

2 hours ago, jesimps said:

The big issue is whether immigration will accept another form of proof of income, at the moment they're still insisting on embassy letters. Also, for some it is a big issue, people have made financial decisions based on being able to (legally) use the income method ie bank accounts where people can't access their saving for a fixed period. Others have used their capital to buy a condo. There are lots of reasons why some can't raise the money in time for their next extension. Of course, it's no problem for you rich, I'm all right Jack types.

 

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The gentleman has a point- had their been notice many months ago- people may not have spent funds on condos, cars or other things and used the money regarding immigration issues.   There needs to be a real decent interval of a year instead of the way things are being handled. The Danish Embassy cutting off letters immediately is a disgrace and will put its citizens in  distress.

 

If this  is the best our Embassies can negotiate- I would suggest they all go home. We don;t need them. 

I agree with the above.

 

I am a danish citizen, and I have been using the "embassy letter" method for some years now.

 

Theretically I have the 800,000 Baht for a deposit in a thai bank, but at the moment they are invested elsewhere, and I don't think, I can get them right now without considerable losses!

My extension of stay expires on 1. March 2019, so that gives me two weeks to find the money and have them sent to my thai bank account. (if my understanding is correct, that I need to have the money on my account 3 months before applying for an extension.)

 

So, looks like I will be leaving Thailand by the end of February .

 

Thank you so much, danish embassy!

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

Immigration could make their own lives easier by granting PR to the vast number of long termers with a proven track record of doing things properly.

I agree they should - would also be the decent and moral thing to do. 

But they haven't offered long-timers a reasonable PR option - even married with family - because they don't want us to be able to stay beyond a very limited "usefulness" value.  If one occupies a Thai's potential job for some years, and recycles existing money instead of importing new foreign-capital money, then maybe, but it's not easy - about as hard as citizenship, if one is married to a Thai.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Then that is what they should say- it's called telling the truth. And if they simply indicated such  citizens could  plan  another  way. I  don't like subterfuge or  keeping the truth from people. They claimed hey met with Thai Imm- and what was the result?

I don’t recall them claiming they’d met with TIB in their announcement. 

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, Awk said:

I'm not sure if anyone has provided a full translation of the statement from the Danish embassy here yet: 

"Dette skyldes, at det juridisk set ikke er muligt for ambassaden i Bangkok at garantere over for de thailandske myndigheder, hvilken indkomst den enkelte person vil have i det kommende år."

 

Which one can translate to:

 

"This is because it is legally impossible for the embassy in Bangkok to provide a guarantee to the Thai government regarding what income the person will have in the coming year."

 

So it's, according to the statement above, not even a question on whether the income is verified or not, it's a question of whether the income will continue as indicated in salary/pension papers submitted.  Indeed, considering the entire country of Denmark could be wiped out by an unseen meteorite on any given day, one can hardly blame the Danish embassy for their reluctance to guarantee for any future income of their citizens past the present day and time.

 

Of course it’s about verifying income. Verifying the income claimed so they can provide a guarantee!

[fforest1]

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

From Immigration Orders:

 

(6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been
consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following
criteria:
(a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with fluids
maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have
a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000
(b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual
fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less
than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000

 

Yes they could increase the lump sum requirements, but as previously, they would in my opinion 'grandfather' the lump sum requirement for those existing long term stayers aged over 60.

 

 

Thai immigration has been making all visas in all classes harder for years now...They are not required to grandfather any thing....They grandfathered before because the Thai government then was much more civilized and valued expats...

Now it seems expats are barely tolerated at best....

Grandfathering is just not standing on the same firm ground as before...