The Official Manchester United Thread

[xylophone]

37 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

I reckon you've been watching football long enough to know that success comes in cycles....

 

There are a) a few very good teams in the Prem and b) a few clubs with just as much money as us to spend as us, if not more.

 

We'll just have to try different managers, strategies, formulas until something works. That's just how it is. We have no godgiven right to success. Beating ourselves up about every disappointment since Fergie isn't going to get us anywhere. Just need to keep going.

I take your point, however it doesn't really address what I was trying to address (maybe I didn't make it clear enough) and a club in our position should have been able to set a strategy that would enable them to target either world-class or upcoming players in advance so that they could lay the groundwork, not scramble around trying to pick up the crumbs, so to speak.

 

For me this season wasn't about "success" per se, but more about the way we played, the mistakes we made and the players we tried and who didn't make it, or shouldn't make it in the future for us, and of course the players we didn't sign.

 

If you look back at the seasons, you will see that there have been several changes in "strategies" with regards to the setup of the team, ranging from the Van Gaal era, to Mourinho and then the mess that was OGS, followed by the strange setups courtesy of RR, and it will be interesting to see what this season brings!

 

 On that subject, if one looks back then the David Moyes era was one which had what appeared to be the best set up, however newer players were needed to make it work.

 

As regards managers, one would have to ask how other clubs have managed to sign the likes of Klippity and Pep right under our noses.

 

In summary, IMO, a club like Manchester United should not have to "try different managers, strategies, formulas etc until something works" because the club's strategy with regards to where it's going and who it wants to appoint should be laid out as a plan to follow, with managers and players already inked in, way before it happens, the way a well-run business does.
 

[RickG16]

12 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I take your point, however it doesn't really address what I was trying to address (maybe I didn't make it clear enough) and a club in our position should have been able to set a strategy that would enable them to target either world-class or upcoming players in advance so that they could lay the groundwork, not scramble around trying to pick up the crumbs, so to speak.

 

For me this season wasn't about "success" per se, but more about the way we played, the mistakes we made and the players we tried and who didn't make it, or shouldn't make it in the future for us, and of course the players we didn't sign.

 

If you look back at the seasons, you will see that there have been several changes in "strategies" with regards to the setup of the team, ranging from the Van Gaal era, to Mourinho and then the mess that was OGS, followed by the strange setups courtesy of RR, and it will be interesting to see what this season brings!

 

 On that subject, if one looks back then the David Moyes era was one which had what appeared to be the best set up, however newer players were needed to make it work.

 

As regards managers, one would have to ask how other clubs have managed to sign the likes of Klippity and Pep right under our noses.

 

In summary, IMO, a club like Manchester United should not have to "try different managers, strategies, formulas etc until something works" because the club's strategy with regards to where it's going and who it wants to appoint should be laid out as a plan to follow, with managers and players already inked in, way before it happens, the way a well-run business does.
 

Yes we'd love a 10 year strategy that doesn't change but when it doesn't go according to plan a new manager comes in, they are all invited to stamp their blueprint on the club and the strategy changes.

 

It's also worth remembering that very few United or non United fans were questioning world class signings such as Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo at the time.

 

With regards to this transfer window. We are competing with the likes of Newcastle for players and have no godgiven right to sign anyone given we don't have champions league football. I wouldn't read too much into Erikson as he would be a squad player anyway.

 

It's time to stop the negativity bred by thinking as a club we 'should' be doing this or that. There are a lot of very good teams and rich clubs around and we'll just have to carry on trying approaches until one works.

[mrbojangles]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

That a club like this with everything at its disposal, and a huge following worldwide, cannot get the basics right, with regards to the right manager, the right players, and the quality players needed in the right positions, suggests that they've got the likes of Coco the clown in senior/decision-making positions – – nothing else stacks up!

Spot on with everything in your full post. Specific to this bit though. It just seems to me that there isn't an overall scouting / transfer / director of football strategy. It seems to be purely reactive. Take last season, I have no doubt in my mind that United never planned for Ronaldo, it was knee jerk reaction to the thought that he may go to City and that was it. This transfer window, again it seems like there isn't a plan for what players to target and get. I believe United wanted Phillips (may be wrong) but they have pontificated and looks like they've lost him. They need to pull their fingers out

[RickG16]

16 minutes ago, mrbojangles said:

Spot on with everything in your full post. Specific to this bit though. It just seems to me that there isn't an overall scouting / transfer / director of football strategy. It seems to be purely reactive. Take last season, I have no doubt in my mind that United never planned for Ronaldo, it was knee jerk reaction to the thought that he may go to City and that was it. This transfer window, again it seems like there isn't a plan for what players to target and get. I believe United wanted Phillips (may be wrong) but they have pontificated and looks like they've lost him. They need to pull their fingers out

Nothing to do with pontification. Phillips is Leeds born and bred and wouldn't make his life a misery by coming to us.

 

What would you be satisfied with as evidence of a plan? If we buy players early everyone says we overpaid and there's no plan, if we negotiate and shop around everyone says we've left it too late and there isn't a plan. 

 

The truth is probably that ETH wants to have more of a look at what he's got and what he thinks he might be able to do with them, before he splashes the cash.

 

Look forward to your response, although you are probably on the wind up so there's not really any point having a proper discussion. 

[mrbojangles]

5 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

What would you be satisfied with as evidence of a plan?

Don't get me wrong Rick, I am extremely happy with the way United are going about their business. I wish it had been this way when I was growing up.

 

5 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

Nothing to do with pontification. Phillips is Leeds born and bred and wouldn't make his life a misery by coming to us.

Nah. Plenty of players move to clubs they didn't like when they were kids, especially to bigger clubs where there is a chance of winning trophies. In fact, that last bit is more like why he wasn't interested in United at the moment. ????

 

5 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

What would you be satisfied with as evidence of a plan? If we buy players early everyone says we overpaid and there's no plan, if we negotiate and shop around everyone says we've left it too late and there isn't a plan. 

 

I certainly don't think anyone would slam you for getting business done early.

 

What is this Murtough's guy's credentials? He came with Moyes didn't he and has been helping to improve the academy and women's football recruitment. Then last year they made him Football Director and put him in charge of men's first team recruitment and all other football matters are decided by him. Do you agree with this appointment, because plenty of my mates and family (United fans) are extremely shocked by it TBH.

[RickG16]

2 minutes ago, mrbojangles said:

Don't get me wrong Rick, I am extremely happy with the way United are going about their business. I wish it had been this way when I was growing up.

 

Nah. Plenty of players move to clubs they didn't like when they were kids, especially to bigger clubs where there is a chance of winning trophies. In fact, that last bit is more like why he wasn't interested in United at the moment. ????

 

I certainly don't think anyone would slam you for getting business done early.

 

What is this Murtough's guy's credentials? He came with Moyes didn't he and has been helping to improve the academy and women's football recruitment. Then last year they made him Football Director and put him in charge of men's first team recruitment and all other football matters are decided by him. Do you agree with this appointment, because plenty of my mates and family (United fans) are extremely shocked by it TBH.

I agree, the bigger reason Phillips isn't coming to us is because obviously City is a far bigger pull. So I don't know why you brought that up at all, talking about pontificating

 

I won't count myself among your mates, family, or anyone else who thinks that they know who is a good or bad football executive is. There's no way of knowing whether he's good at his job. Sorry, we've been here before. I'll stick to talking about players I can see on the pitch. 

[RickG16]

13 minutes ago, mrbojangles said:

Don't get me wrong Rick, I am extremely happy with the way United are going about their business. I wish it had been this way when I was growing up.

 

Nah. Plenty of players move to clubs they didn't like when they were kids, especially to bigger clubs where there is a chance of winning trophies. In fact, that last bit is more like why he wasn't interested in United at the moment. ????

 

I certainly don't think anyone would slam you for getting business done early.

 

What is this Murtough's guy's credentials? He came with Moyes didn't he and has been helping to improve the academy and women's football recruitment. Then last year they made him Football Director and put him in charge of men's first team recruitment and all other football matters are decided by him. Do you agree with this appointment, because plenty of my mates and family (United fans) are extremely shocked by it TBH.

The fact is you are just lazily coming on here to beat us with a stick you've heard repeated again and again by bad pundits and social media hordes.

 

Your mates and family are doing what many of us United fans are doing... searching for an answer... is it the manager, the players, the DoF, the tealady, the team bus driver...... the truth is it isnt one thing. It's a combination, and as I've said today you have to take into account that there are some very strong clubs around... both on the pitch and financially.

 

If I had to pick one thing I think is the biggest factor it's the manager. We need to start coaching players to get better, rather than seeing them deteriorate. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by RickG16

[mrbojangles]

6 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

I won't count myself among your mates, family, or anyone else who thinks that they know who is a good or bad football executive is. There's no way of knowing whether he's good at his job. 

Several of my family are long standing season ticket holders and are shall we say, part of the fabric of the club and are fully aware of the internal goings on. They didn't get his appointment. 

 

6 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

Sorry, we've been here before. I'll stick to talking about players I can see on the pitch. 

You ask me a question, I give you a thought out response and you just throw it aside without even giving your opinion. I don't see the point od you asking if you don't want a response.

[RickG16]

2 minutes ago, mrbojangles said:

Several of my family are long standing season ticket holders and are shall we say, part of the fabric of the club and are fully aware of the internal goings on. They didn't get his appointment. 

 

I can be aware of the goings on at my local computer chip manufacturer, but if I don't understand the structure associated with a corporation that makes semiconductor chips, or know how good those people are at their jobs, how can I know what is a good or bad appointment?

[mrbojangles]

12 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

I can be aware of the goings on at my local computer chip manufacturer, but if I don't understand the structure associated with a corporation that makes semiconductor chips, or know how good those people are at their jobs, how can I know what is a good or bad appointment?

As you have said, you are clearly not bothered by the backroom and only interested in the players on the pitch, I'll leave it at that

[xylophone]

7 minutes ago, mrbojangles said:

As you have said, you are clearly not bothered by the backroom and only interested in the players on the pitch, I'll leave it at that

I was about to reply with something similar, having just come back onto the thread, and I agree with his sentiments, that we have to look forward, but one also has to look at how we got in the position we are now, which is: – searching for (another?) good manager and hopefully having found one; having players on the books who should have gone some while ago, signing some average players, and getting beaten to the punch with regards to signing top-class players.

 

What I was going to answer to one of RickG16's posts and I did allude to it in another of my posts, was that there is something wrong behind-the-scenes with whomsoever is responsible for making key decisions, because I haven't seen a good decision made in the club for a long time, and that includes the manager selection.

 

It's all very well for others to say well we should move forward and look to the future and so on, but all the time the same backroom staff or staff in managerial positions of power (I use that word lightly) are still there, the same thing will keep happening and it puts me in mind of an old training saying from a very good HR friend of mine, when he used to say, "if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten" – – meaning change is necessary especially when looking into an organisation or the behaviours therein, especially if the results are not what are wanted.

 

I'm not "harking back to the Alex days" but I wonder if his temperament was such that he ruled the roost and anybody who disagreed with him got the proverbial mouthful, so he got his way, whereas now whoever is in charge has to bear the brunt of the failures and just like anywhere, searching deep inside the company that has to be somebody who is responsible for certain things, and these people have to be held accountable for their decisions and the outcomes.
 

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

I take your point, however it doesn't really address what I was trying to address (maybe I didn't make it clear enough) and a club in our position should have been able to set a strategy that would enable them to target either world-class or upcoming players in advance so that they could lay the groundwork, not scramble around trying to pick up the crumbs, so to speak.

 

For me this season wasn't about "success" per se, but more about the way we played, the mistakes we made and the players we tried and who didn't make it, or shouldn't make it in the future for us, and of course the players we didn't sign.

 

If you look back at the seasons, you will see that there have been several changes in "strategies" with regards to the setup of the team, ranging from the Van Gaal era, to Mourinho and then the mess that was OGS, followed by the strange setups courtesy of RR, and it will be interesting to see what this season brings!

 

 On that subject, if one looks back then the David Moyes era was one which had what appeared to be the best set up, however newer players were needed to make it work.

 

As regards managers, one would have to ask how other clubs have managed to sign the likes of Klippity and Pep right under our noses.

 

In summary, IMO, a club like Manchester United should not have to "try different managers, strategies, formulas etc until something works" because the club's strategy with regards to where it's going and who it wants to appoint should be laid out as a plan to follow, with managers and players already inked in, way before it happens, the way a well-run business does.
 

contrary to ManU that sacks a coach after 4-5 games City and Liverpool gave their coaches chances to show up their work, what did Klippity won when he arrived, did Pep start to win all his games at start., no and he was not fired but Van Gaal and Mourinho and also Moyes were shown the door after a couple of defeats, if my memory is good Mourinho did show some work by winning the only Europa league cup that United has and yet he was shown the door because he was asking for some players. If United wants to move forward they better change all their tech staff as they know sh.. about football

[RickG16]

13 minutes ago, xylophone said:

 getting beaten to the punch with regards to signing top-class players.

 

Who do you think we should have signed that we realistically have a shot at? Taking into account our current situation and the cloud over the club?

 

I think we can agree that there are a few youngsters who should be blooded properly next year.... Garner, Hannibal and Garnacho among them 

[RickG16]

2 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

contrary to ManU that sacks a coach after 4-5 games City and Liverpool gave their coaches chances to show up their work, what did Klippity won when he arrived, did Pep start to win all his games at start., no and he was not fired but Van Gaal and Mourinho and also Moyes were shown the door after a couple of defeats, if my memory is good Mourinho did show some work by winning the only Europa league cup that United has and yet he was shown the door because he was asking for some players. If United wants to move forward they better change all their tech staff as they know sh.. about football

Without being on the training pitch how do you know whether the tech staff, coaches or manager are more to blame?

[Mavideol]

8 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

Without being on the training pitch how do you know whether the tech staff, coaches or manager are more to blame?

I was play professional for several years and know a little about managerial/tech staff, they change coaches the new coaches bring some new faces to the staff but, at United, it appears the non performing roots stick around, look at that guy that worked with Van Gaal, Mourinho, OGS what's his name Fletcher or something like that what about Garrick good player but what was he doing as an assistant and do this guys know much about players management feel free to check their football team management

DEPUTY FOOTBALL DIRECTOR

Andy O'Boyle, 

FOOTBALL DIRECTOR

John Murtough

DIRECTOR OF FOOTBALL OPERATIONS

Alan Dawson MBE

STRATEGY EXECUTIVE

Chris Chiang

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Mavideol

[RickG16]

2 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

 what about Garrick good player but what was he doing as an assistant

That's the point. We don't know what they are doing. We only see them on TV in the dugout. We don't know which ones are good or bad.

 

But I do take your point about a 'jobs for the boys' culture in which people stick around for too long.

[xylophone]

7 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

Who do you think we should have signed that we realistically have a shot at?

I am thinking more along the lines of what the club didn't do, when it had the chance, and whomsoever is responsible for these "misses" needs a kick up the backside, or one can only hope that they are not with the club and making any important decisions these days: –

– Kevin de Bruyne

– Mohammed Salah

– Sadio Mane

– Raheem Sterling

– Van Dijk

 

Probably some others if I got to thinking about them, but all these were available to United and have proven to be star signings. On another level, some while ago United were offered big money for David de Ghea, and they turned it down, so now he will be leaving on a free transfer, BUT quite why they didn't let him go then, good keeper that he is, I have no idea, because United had other good keepers on their books and there were others available??

[RickG16]

2 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I am thinking more along the lines of what the club didn't do, when it had the chance, and whomsoever is responsible for these "misses" needs a kick up the backside, or one can only hope that they are not with the club and making any important decisions these days: –

– Kevin de Bruyne

– Mohammed Salah

– Sadio Mane

– Raheem Sterling

– Van Dijk

 

Probably some others if I got to thinking about them, but all these were available to United and have proven to be star signings. On another level, some while ago United were offered big money for David de Ghea, and they turned it down, so now he will be leaving on a free transfer, BUT quite why they didn't let him go then, good keeper that he is, I have no idea, because United had other good keepers on their books and there were others available??

With all due respect you are crying over split milk again. The question is who do we sign now. 

[xylophone]

Just now, RickG16 said:

With all due respect you are crying over split milk again. The question is who do we sign now. 

That's where we differ, because I'm not "crying over spilt milk" I'm stating that whoever was in the position to sign those players and didn't or whomever had a hand in not signing them shouldn't still be with the club working behind the scenes – – it's that simple for me.

 

And as Mavideol has said in one of his posts where you have the likes of Carrick (I think that's whom he meant) and Fletcher assisting the manager/coach, then you are potentially asking for problems.

 

Another thing that strikes me is, "how good is their scouting program" and who is in charge of that. I ask because I remember Tony Book (at the age of 30+) being signed by Manchester City from a team in the West Country when he was playing senior amateur/semipro football, and he proved to be an excellent signing, and for the record, a scout from QPR came to watch me play in several games when I was playing senior amateur football in Sussex and asked the manager/coach if they could approach me to go to QPR for trials. 

 

My point is that in those days, the scouting network was very widespread, and I wonder what it is like today?

[RickG16]

6 minutes ago, xylophone said:

That's where we differ, because I'm not "crying over spilt milk" I'm stating that whoever was in the position to sign those players and didn't or whomever had a hand in not signing them shouldn't still be with the club working behind the scenes – – it's that simple for me.

It wasn't just us who is kicking themselves missing out on the players you mention. I'll except Sterling as I don't think he would have come to us from Liverpool.

 

Look I agree mistakes have been made at the club and we need a fresh outlook, which we are getting in many respects.

 

All we can do is give ETH and the new senior management a chance. I don't think not rushing in to sign players is any cause for panic. Hopefully he can have a look at them in training and root out more dead wood before the start of the window.

 

 

[xylophone]

11 minutes ago, RickG16 said:

The question is who do we sign now.

Sorry, I meant to answer that, but obviously didn't!!!!

 

Although I was a keen player and played for 40 years and for many years it was basically "my life" and I lived and breathed it, but since my retirement, moving here and reaching the age of 75, I've really not been keeping abreast of football events, apart from watching Match of the Day whenever I can.

 

So I don't know who is available who would fit into United I'm afraid, as my focus on football now is very narrow, however what did surprise me was how Donny van de Beek was signed by United, then basically didn't get any game time and then was loaned out – – what on earth was that all about?

 

Unless it points to what I have been trying to say, that "something is wrong in the state of United" (apologies to Hamlet).

 

You are up to play with English football, much more than me, as I left there in 1984!! So who would be your picks for summer signing and what about the Utd back line?

[mrbojangles]

13 hours ago, xylophone said:

My point is that in those days, the scouting network was very widespread, and I wonder what it is like today?

It's extremely widespread nowadays, global and with high tech databases being used. City's system is called Scout7 and is that detailed Liverpool hacked it (allegedly) and paid City £1m compensation. I say allegedly because it never went to court but it was settled before it got to court. I'm sure Liverpool wouldn't have paid it if they'd done nothing wrong ????

 

Will City live to regret accepting £1m from Liverpool? The alleged ‘hacking’ scandal that became a footnote - The Athletic

[wilai]

Some good news for you guys.........

 

Howard Webb is the new referee's boss!????

 

 

 

[champers]

28 minutes ago, wilai said:

Some good news for you guys.........

 

Howard Webb is the new referee's boss!????

 

 

 

The man he has replaced; the awful Mike Riley; was worth 12 points a season to Utd.

By the way, before VAR try getting a marginal offside decision in your favour playing against Liverpool when they are attacking the Kop end.

[RickG16]

On 6/26/2022 at 3:24 PM, champers said:

The man he has replaced; the awful Mike Riley; was worth 12 points a season to Utd.

By the way, before VAR try getting a marginal offside decision in your favour playing against Liverpool when they are attacking the Kop end.

We are a harmless midtable side! Why would we get given refereeing decisions?

[RickG16]

On 6/25/2022 at 7:47 PM, xylophone said:

 

 

You are up to play with English football, much more than me, as I left there in 1984!! So who would be your picks for summer signing and what about the Utd back line?

Sorry for late reply. I don't watch that much football these days if it's not United, owing to time difference and lack of time. But in an ideal world I'd like De Jong, Rice, Koulibaly and maybe a full back.

 

I think I mentioned to @wilai the most impressive player I've seen in recent weeks is Tchouaemeni, a French national defensive midfielder who plays for Monaco. Unfortunately he has all the big fish after him and seems unlikely to be tempted by OT in its current state.

Edited June 27, 2022 by RickG16

[champers]

2 hours ago, RickG16 said:

 

I think I mentioned to @wilai the most impressive player I've seen in recent weeks is Tchouaemeni, a French national defensive midfielder who plays for Monaco. Unfortunately he has all the big fish after him and seems unlikely to be tempted by OT in its current state.

He's been signed by Real Madrid and officially joins them on 1st July.

The "new Pogba" - for France.

[RickG16]

18 minutes ago, champers said:

He's been signed by Real Madrid and officially joins them on 1st July.

The "new Pogba" - for France.

He's looks much better than Pogba in that role

[RickG16]

I'm interested to hear United fans' views on this Ronaldo situation.

 

Assuming it's true, and it can't be resolved, aren't we better off letting him leave and getting another striker in? Or is he so good that he'd still be better to keep even if he does want to leave?

 

2008/09 season springs to mind

[Sparkles]

20 hours ago, RickG16 said:

I'm interested to hear United fans' views on this Ronaldo situation.

 

Assuming it's true, and it can't be resolved, aren't we better off letting him leave and getting another striker in? Or is he so good that he'd still be better to keep even if he does want to leave?

 

2008/09 season springs to mind

You could almost see this coming. I don't think Ronaldo would enjoy playing the ETH way which is his trademark but the obvious problem can be broken up into 3 issues. Add not playing CL.

 

(1) I cant see anyone in the current squad who could match his ability to score the number of goals unless Rashford suddenly regains his form and becomes the player we all thought he was going to be. Aerially he is no match for Ronaldo who is the best header of ball I can remember.

 

(2) Effective strikers are thin on the ground, This is a rebuild we don't want another striker at the end of his career ,that's just a quick fix and like the Cavani experiment possibility of being injury prone. 

 

(3) The upcoming tour of Thailand and Australia is also effected, These tours are simply commercial  ventures nothing to do with formulating the final team and Ronaldo is the player many want to see ,maybe their last chance. The games in Australia will have crowds of 90,000 in Melbourne and 85,000 in Sydney ie capacity crowds. Without cameo appearances from Ronaldo that's going to effect sales of merchandise, high on list for the Glazers.

 

So a dilemma for the club, of course his obscene wage would be saved assisting any future purchases. I'm not sure any potential club can afford his current income.

 

Incoming seems like Erikson will be joining, might not score many goals but his strength is being a goal creator. Malacia came out of the blue, younger version of Evra but more tenacious. Now we have 3 LB's unless he could play a a wing back, plenty of vision on him on you tube.

 

No one outside the club management knows who is being tracked, social media and journos scrambling for stories but like long time supporters including season ticket holders mostly clueless as it should be