Buying a new house with Thai girlfriend

[Mavideol]

22 hours ago, mariohh1 said:

yes you can do the usufruct after if the thai agrees

 

 

magic word?? if the THAI agrees, thus again depending on the Thais, I thought the majority of the advise were about not needing somebody or not trusting that somebody

[Mavideol]

16 minutes ago, baansgr said:

Chanotes are easy to replace,  she just files a police report and presents it at the land office making the one he's holding worthless. Thai law and the court will award him 50% in divorce  but she can sell at anytime and getting blood out of a stone didn't work.  All these ideas on this thread are meaningless. Hard truth is you can't have control over land here so be prepared to loose it. 

agree..it's like lending money to a friend, if you are ready to consider it as a loss... go for it

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, Travel Dude said:

3) Buy in name of your girlfriend (transaction 1 at land department)  and (transaction 2 at land department after a couple of days) lease it back from her for a period of 30 years with promises of 2 more further extension after 30 years + stipulate that if you sell the lease owner has the obligation to issue a new 30 years lease to buyer. 

Any lease over 30 years is legally void, so better not do that, you may in worst case scenario end up with no lease at all.

 

If you consider extra options for an extended lease period, it has to be in a separate agreement outside the actual leasing contract. There's no guarantee that you'll get an extension of the lease, and if you don't get a new lease, then it's a civil court case against the the person that signed the contract.

 

You can make a leasing agreement transferable – i.e. able to sell – but it will still be the original 30-year term, so you are selling the remaining number of years only. Any agreement of a new 30-lease to the buyer, is a separate non-registered document.

An example, the land could have been sold, and the new owner need to fulfill the registered first 30-year period, but has no obligations to renew a lease, or lease the land to anybody, after the registered term is finished. The previous owner, if you can find the person, cannot lease you a land that is owned by someone else, so it's a simple matter of some level of compensation. The same is the situation for the 3+3+3 years non-registered leasing agreements, or rental contracts, made as three separate predated and signed documents; anything further than the first 3-year period might show to be completely worthless.

????

[digger70]

22 hours ago, GalaxyMan said:

I'd say that was a given no matter where you are. Investing, gambling, is there a difference?

 

It seems to me that splitting the house from the land, putting the land in her name and getting a lifetime usufruct for me on the house will be the most logical way to go, all things considered.

Yea many of us farangs do.

[BTB1977]

If trust is not an issue,  just have a verbal agreement with her and hand over your money to her. I'm sure you will be fine. 

[uffe123]

Dont do it. You cannot own anything and you have no rights. Eventually you will loose it all.

belive  me, i have been there and done that.

Dont buy anything.

[tifino]

yeah! ... once it is all paid for, nothing more owing:

 

she "don't need the man"

[DJ54]

Let’s put a positive spin on it hope that they’re happily together get married if they want have some children if the want .....  and tell their Grandchildren these stories 

 

yes sometimes things don’t work out but putting doom and gloom on it is not the way to start out. Everyone has their experiences good, bad whatever life goes on.

 

wish you and your girlfriend all the best....

[madmen]

"And this is NOT a topic about trust between me and my girlfriend"

Those words will come back to haunt you. Tens of thousands over the years have said there's is different.. But very few are

How is your lady educated. Where did she learn to speak English?

I wish you the very best of luck

[Spidey]

3 hours ago, madmen said:

Those words will come back to haunt you. Tens of thousands over the years have said there's is different.. But very few are

How is your lady educated. Where did she learn to speak English?

Actually, IME, the majority live long and very happy lives with their Thai wives. You should stop listening to those bitter, misogynistic, farangs, spending their days hanging off bar stools, telling everyone how, "some third world bitch" ruined their lives. Most of us can't believe our luck.

 

My wife left school at 14 and doesn't speak English, I learned Thai and Lao, I live in her country, we speak her language. Having said that, she's one smart cookie, she chose me didn't she? 555

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Spidey

[BritManToo]

6 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Most of us can't believe our luck.

If you replace your last 'l' with an 'f', I'd agree with you.

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, BTB1977 said:

If trust is not an issue,  just have a verbal agreement with her and hand over your money to her. I'm sure you will be fine. 

Good point!

[Spidey]

Just now, BritManToo said:

If you replace your last 'l' with an 'f', I'd agree with you.

Can we agree on both being applicable? 555

[MyFriend You]

On 12/15/2018 at 1:48 PM, scorecard said:

 

Here's another possibility to try for something a bit nearer to balance of ownership /interests / rights etc., but not a perfect answer.

 

It's legal and it is is done in Thailand, for the land to be in one name and the house in another name.

 

Example, the land sold to your wife and recorded on the land title document (the chanut) in your wife's name alone (cannot be directly in a foreigners name). 

 

And a separate contract for the building of the house in your name alone, and you recorded (alone) as the house owner, at the land titles office. 

 

You mentioned in your first post a combined price however maybe all of the above could be covered in 1 contract. And if needed personally I would push the developer to adjust their standard contract to accommodate the above if you wanted this arrangement, even if it meant bringing in another lawyer to just write the adjusted contact document. Shouldn't be to difficult. 

 

 

Usufruct for Life is the Ops best option, it is binding and if I am not mistaken, transferrable, the above sounds a little like a beautique Usufruct and I wonder if it has ever been done legally - haven;t heard of this method before, but everything is possible in Thailand hey??

[jackdd]

On 12/15/2018 at 3:01 PM, BritManToo said:

Get your gf to take out a home loan for 2.5M over 30 years. 

You pay the deposit (300k) and the repayments (16k/month). 

 

Then if anything goes wrong, you no longer need to make any repayments.

I've recommended the same on other occasions and i still think that this is the best choice for any foreigner wanting to buy a house.

[alphason]

Looked a few times before at this out of interest, but never really understood it all. Most legal firms still seem to talk mostly about the company route which does not seem the best way to me.

 

Is there a difference in costs between a lease and a usufruct, legal costs to set up, fees/taxes payable to land office, ongoing costs?

 

Is an usufruct available for life, but a lease limited to 30 years (unless renewed)?

 

Is a lease or usufruct permitted where the property is mortgaged, to a Thai?

 

What would happen if the Thai was die in either case?

[GalaxyMan]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Actually, IME, the majority live long and very happy lives with their Thai wives. You should stop listening to those bitter, misogynistic, farangs, spending their days hanging off bar stools, telling everyone how, "some third world bitch" ruined their lives. Most of us can't believe our luck.

 

My wife left school at 14 and doesn't speak English, I learned Thai and Lao, I live in her country, we speak her language. Having said that, she's one smart cookie, she chose me didn't she? 555

 

Amen! I tune out the obvious bar-girl chasing losers whose idea of a good time is just that, get drunk, get laid, pay for it. Not for me. Never has been, never will be. Each to their own.

It would seem that the simplest solution to the problem is going to be for GF to buy the property and give me a 30-year lease with a clause requiring both parties to agree to early termination. God forbid I should live long enough to need to worry about an extension.

[khunPer]

8 hours ago, alphason said:

Looked a few times before at this out of interest, but never really understood it all. Most legal firms still seem to talk mostly about the company route which does not seem the best way to me.

 

Is there a difference in costs between a lease and a usufruct, legal costs to set up, fees/taxes payable to land office, ongoing costs?

 

Is an usufruct available for life, but a lease limited to 30 years (unless renewed)?

 

Is a lease or usufruct permitted where the property is mortgaged, to a Thai?

 

What would happen if the Thai was die in either case?

Usufruct costs a few hundred baht to set up, and can run for life, but is (normally) not transferable, when for life. No taxes, no ongoing costs; but not all land offices might accept a usufruct to a foreigner, and there's also the usual question about contract between husband and wife in case of divorce.

 

A lease is always limited to a maximum of 30-years – there is no such thing as 30+30+30 years lease – and can be transferable, or able to be resold, depending of the words in the agreement. A lease fee shall be paid, and a small percentage tax (1% if not changed) apply upon registration at land office, payable for the whole lease period, i.e. up to 30 years.

 

As both a lease and an usufruct are registered at the title deed in land office, both agreement shall be fulfilled by landlord/owner, also in case of death of the original owner, and in any case of sale and/or transfer of the land.

????

[khunPer]

On 12/15/2018 at 7:48 AM, scorecard said:

 

Here's another possibility to try for something a bit nearer to balance of ownership /interests / rights etc., but not a perfect answer.

 

It's legal and it is is done in Thailand, for the land to be in one name and the house in another name.

 

Example, the land sold to your wife and recorded on the land title document (the chanut) in your wife's name alone (cannot be directly in a foreigners name). 

 

And a separate contract for the building of the house in your name alone, and you recorded (alone) as the house owner, at the land titles office. 

 

You mentioned in your first post a combined price however maybe all of the above could be covered in 1 contract. And if needed personally I would push the developer to adjust their standard contract to accommodate the above if you wanted this arrangement, even if it meant bringing in another lawyer to just write the adjusted contact document. Shouldn't be to difficult. 

Yes, a foreigner can own a house, but not the land under it. I'm for example a legal house-owner.

OP is talking about a house already under construction. If that is house is not separated from land before actual building construction begin, it might – to my knowledge and experience – be difficult, if not impossible, to separate the ownership of the building from the land.

 

Normally you will need a superficies – or similar agreement with permission from the land owner – when applying for building permission, which shall be then issued in the name of the owner of the house to be. Architect drawings and bulding constructor contracts – and all related paperwork, bills, and money transfers – shall also be issued in the name of the coming house owner, as registered in the building permission. These documents are (the only) proof of ownership.

 

Later when resold, the house can be registered with another owner, than the land.

????

[KhaoYai]

Possibilities:

 

Company ownership: Your shareholding may be limited to 39% depending on the local Land Office but the maximum shareholding by a foreigner is 49% in any case. The voting rights of the Thai directors can be removed thereby giving you control of the company. The company must trade and may be asked to show a reason why purchasing the property is a necessary part of its trading activity.

 

Lease or Usufruct: The Thai courts recently ruled that 30 years is the max. Both routes can give you security of tenure if properly done and registered with the Land Office but they don't give you any value. 

 

Mortgage: In your case, I'd say this looks a brighter prospect.  See a lawyer first and get them to check whether or not the local Land Office will accept a foreign mortgage - some won't.  If they will, you can place a mortgage over the property which must be paid before it can be sold. On the minus side, your wife/gf can simply hang on to it and not try to sell it and as there won't be any monthly payments that could be missed - you have no reason to foreclose. Your wife/gf may object to this but I'd question her intentions if she did.

 

In any of the above cases - see a decent lawyer, let them formulate the contract and register whatever route you choose on the title deeds.

[GalaxyMan]

14 hours ago, khunPer said:

Usufruct costs a few hundred baht to set up, and can run for life, but is (normally) not transferable, when for life. No taxes, no ongoing costs; but not all land offices might accept a usufruct to a foreigner, and there's also the usual question about contract between husband and wife in case of divorce.

 

A lease is always limited to a maximum of 30-years – there is no such thing as 30+30+30 years lease – and can be transferable, or able to be resold, depending of the words in the agreement. A lease fee shall be paid, and a small percentage tax (1% if not changed) apply upon registration at land office, payable for the whole lease period, i.e. up to 30 years.

 

As both a lease and an usufruct are registered at the title deed in land office, both agreement shall be fulfilled by landlord/owner, also in case of death of the original owner, and in any case of sale and/or transfer of the land.

????

I've been reading all of these excellent comments/suggestions. The lease seems far more expensive overall than a usufruct, as there are income taxes, the 1.1% fee, etc., involved with a lease. Assuming the Thai builder is not going to be interested in doing a superficies since the house is already half built, how difficult can it be to do it after the fact when my GF will own it all in her name? Or she could simply sell me the house and keep the land, giving me a lease on the land for a nominal sum for 30 years. I've learned in my reading that any lease over 3 years needs to be registered with the Land Office in order to be legally enforceable. Doing so acts as an encumbrance on the property so that the person leasing is protected. If she gave me a 30-year lease on the entire property, then it becomes expensive in fees and taxes.

[khunPer]

7 hours ago, GalaxyMan said:

I've been reading all of these excellent comments/suggestions. The lease seems far more expensive overall than a usufruct, as there are income taxes, the 1.1% fee, etc., involved with a lease. Assuming the Thai builder is not going to be interested in doing a superficies since the house is already half built, how difficult can it be to do it after the fact when my GF will own it all in her name? Or she could simply sell me the house and keep the land, giving me a lease on the land for a nominal sum for 30 years. I've learned in my reading that any lease over 3 years needs to be registered with the Land Office in order to be legally enforceable. Doing so acts as an encumbrance on the property so that the person leasing is protected. If she gave me a 30-year lease on the entire property, then it becomes expensive in fees and taxes.

Thanks for your reply.

 

To my knowledge it's difficult, if not impossible, to separate a house from the land, after building permission has been issued to the name of the land owner. You'll need to check with an experienced local real-state solicitor that know how the land office at Koh Samui handles it. 
See also my previous post...

 

Usufruct is the most simple and cost effective way, but not all land offices will accept an usufruct for a foreigner – one posted that the land office at Koh Samui won't accept usufruct for neighboring island Koh Phangan – I have no experience about usufructs here on Samui, and never hear anyone locally talk about it, so you really need to consult a solicitor to check if it's possible at all.

 

Lease become (much) more expensive than usufruct– especially when you have already paid for the property – but lease is a simple and fully legal way to do things. However, bear in mind the servitude loan-method I mentioned, where paid lease sum might equal payback of initial loan declared like a mortgage; i.e. same sum of money going there, and back again for the next 30-years. You'll pay little tax upon registration of the lease agreement, but that might be relative small money for some level of legal security.

 

After 30 years a house in Thailand might not be worth much – to a degree depending of level of maintenance – whilst the land normally will increase in value. So looking at the house only, the resale value would be low after 30 years, even after 10-years it might be lower than the initial cost price. My financial educated Thai friend, who rents out real estate here on Samui, learned me that you should deduct 10% of a house's value annually – presume the first few years not included, value might even go slightly up – i.e. after 1st year's deduction period the value is 90%, after 2nd year the value is 81% (90% minus 10%), and after 3rd year value is 73%, etc. Rising inflation in labor and material costs might level the loss of building value a bit. Always remember that location is the main factor of real estate value. Your house still has a value but it's getting lower and lower, whilst land typically will increase in value; Thais prefer to buy new houses, or build one. If you buy a 30-year old house in your home country, you would probably also wish to do numerous changes due to age. Ownership of a house, without the land under it, might not be worth much in the long run, but might still be (a lot) cheaper than renting similar in same period.

????

 

Edit: PS, you should consult a local solicitor for best up-to-date advice and fully due diligence. Fist informal meeting is normally free-of-charge. If you don't know a local law firm, I can PM you the one I have used...????

Edited December 18, 2018 by khunPer

[GalaxyMan]

15 hours ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your reply.

 

To my knowledge it's difficult, if not impossible, to separate a house from the land, after building permission has been issued to the name of the land owner. You'll need to check with an experienced local real-state solicitor that know how the land office at Koh Samui handles it. 
See also my previous post...

 

Usufruct is the most simple and cost effective way, but not all land offices will accept an usufruct for a foreigner – one posted that the land office at Koh Samui won't accept usufruct for neighboring island Koh Phangan – I have no experience about usufructs here on Samui, and never hear anyone locally talk about it, so you really need to consult a solicitor to check if it's possible at all.

 

Lease become (much) more expensive than usufruct– especially when you have already paid for the property – but lease is a simple and fully legal way to do things. However, bear in mind the servitude loan-method I mentioned, where paid lease sum might equal payback of initial loan declared like a mortgage; i.e. same sum of money going there, and back again for the next 30-years. You'll pay little tax upon registration of the lease agreement, but that might be relative small money for some level of legal security.

 

After 30 years a house in Thailand might not be worth much – to a degree depending of level of maintenance – whilst the land normally will increase in value. So looking at the house only, the resale value would be low after 30 years, even after 10-years it might be lower than the initial cost price. My financial educated Thai friend, who rents out real estate here on Samui, learned me that you should deduct 10% of a house's value annually – presume the first few years not included, value might even go slightly up – i.e. after 1st year's deduction period the value is 90%, after 2nd year the value is 81% (90% minus 10%), and after 3rd year value is 73%, etc. Rising inflation in labor and material costs might level the loss of building value a bit. Always remember that location is the main factor of real estate value. Your house still has a value but it's getting lower and lower, whilst land typically will increase in value; Thais prefer to buy new houses, or build one. If you buy a 30-year old house in your home country, you would probably also wish to do numerous changes due to age. Ownership of a house, without the land under it, might not be worth much in the long run, but might still be (a lot) cheaper than renting similar in same period.

????

 

Edit: PS, you should consult a local solicitor for best up-to-date advice and fully due diligence. Fist informal meeting is normally free-of-charge. If you don't know a local law firm, I can PM you the one I have used...????

Great stuff, khunPer. Thanks. I used a local lawyer for a will, but I was seriously unimpressed with everything to do with them. I have a background in managing a legal office and was appalled at how poorly they did the work. I had to spend hours with them correcting their language, etc., and then had to pay too much for the privilege of teaching them how to do their job. I'd appreciate any recommendations anyone might have about a competent lawyer on Samui. My first choice in all of this is a usufruct for life. If that proves not possible, then the lease would be the way to go.

Another thought just occurred to me. If the Samui land office doesn't want to register an usufruct, can I do it in Surat Thani?

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, GalaxyMan said:

I used a local lawyer for a will, but I was seriously unimpressed with everything to do with them. I have a background in managing a legal office and was appalled at how poorly they did the work. I had to spend hours with them correcting their language, etc., and then had to pay too much for the privilege of teaching them how to do their job. I'd appreciate any recommendations anyone might have about a competent lawyer

Welcome to Thailand. Lawyers, condo management, PC repairs, doctors, car repairs, air-con cleaners .... Thailand has many people of all nationalities who simply dont know what they are doing and who lurch from one bodge-up to another. And even when you do find someone who appears to know his subject, they will probably be very erratic and will do a good job one day and an appalling one the next.

[GalaxyMan]

19 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Welcome to Thailand. Lawyers, condo management, PC repairs, doctors, car repairs, air-con cleaners .... Thailand has many people of all nationalities who simply dont know what they are doing and who lurch from one bodge-up to another. And even when you do find someone who appears to know his subject, they will probably be very erratic and will do a good job one day and an appalling one the next.

Well, my experience with computer and scooter repairs here in Maenam have been nothing short of outstanding and unbelievably inexpensive. Lawyers...Shakespeare had it right.

[khunPer]

8 hours ago, GalaxyMan said:

Another thought just occurred to me. If the Samui land office doesn't want to register an usufruct, can I do it in Surat Thani?

To my knowledge "no".

Samui is under Surat Thani, and the land in question is registered at the Samui land office, and nowhere else. The original title deed is physically filed in that particular land office. You need to clear legal details with a local law firm that know how the procedures are handled at Samui, they can also give you best up-to-date advice.

 

A law firm legal adviser and front office manager, and the solicitor owner, told me, that Samui is known for always having a mind of it's own, being a Hainan-community and fairly isolated up to the 1970'es, when ta couple of German back packers made the World aware of "paradise". I was told that one thing is what a government up in Bangkok decide, but there's a long way from Bangkok to Samui, so another thing is what the locals decide to do down here. So what is law in Bangkok, might not be law at Samui. We experienced it clearly right after the last military coup, when all of Thailand closed down at 10 pm under the curfew, but night-life at Samui continued as business as usual; the junta officially had to ease the curfew for local areas by Full Moon Party time. However, time is beginning to change this, and Samui become more same-same, but still little different...????

[scoupeo]

Still telling to people to setup a company when we already know that problems have started and will happen more and more ? How idiotic is this ?

 

[GalaxyMan]

18 hours ago, khunPer said:

To my knowledge "no".

Samui is under Surat Thani, and the land in question is registered at the Samui land office, and nowhere else. The original title deed is physically filed in that particular land office. You need to clear legal details with a local law firm that know how the procedures are handled at Samui, they can also give you best up-to-date advice.

 

A law firm legal adviser and front office manager, and the solicitor owner, told me, that Samui is known for always having a mind of it's own, being a Hainan-community and fairly isolated up to the 1970'es, when ta couple of German back packers made the World aware of "paradise". I was told that one thing is what a government up in Bangkok decide, but there's a long way from Bangkok to Samui, so another thing is what the locals decide to do down here. So what is law in Bangkok, might not be law at Samui. We experienced it clearly right after the last military coup, when all of Thailand closed down at 10 pm under the curfew, but night-life at Samui continued as business as usual; the junta officially had to ease the curfew for local areas by Full Moon Party time. However, time is beginning to change this, and Samui become more same-same, but still little different...????

I first came to Samui in '83 and the fact that most of the mainland nonsense never really made any inroads on Samui is a big part of the attraction. If you're living a benign life, even the mafia which runs Samui is unnoticeable, unlike on Phangan or Tao. Samui's got its faults, but it has the best weather in Thailand and the island time/Thai time attitude is perfect for retired old farts like me. ????

 

Talked to the owner/developer and it seems that he's going to provide the usufruct documents for us when we sign the contract. He's been very accommodating vis-a-vis finishing the house in the way we'd like it done, materials, etc. It seems as though he's got several ventures going on all at once; very hard-working guy. He builds for Thais, not farangs, and the prices reflect this. I understand that I'll be the only farang in the neighborhood. Should be interesting.