Consul General for US Embassy Bangkok Interview

[skatewash]

The Pataya City Expats Club (PCEC) is reporting in their newsletter released today that the Consul General for US Embassy in Bangkok was interviewed by Pattaya FM 103 on December 20.  I was unable to find a link to the audio of the interview.

 

The most newsworthy items are that the Consul General has seen a draft of a new Immigration Police Order and expects it to be released in January, and the last point confirming that Immigration really doesn't want to be in the income verification business either and is likely to focus on the transfer of funds into a Thai bank as the solution.
 

Quote

 

Key points mentioned:

• They have met with both Immigration Headquarters including some of the regional offices (they met with Pattaya's Deputy Chief when they came down for their recent Outreach Visit).

 

• The Income Affidavits being issued by the Embassy until [the] end of December will be valid for 6 months from [the] date of issue and can still be used by those renewing their extensions during that period. Today, they had made 500 appointment slots available for notarial service including the income letter (The ACS had previously announced last week that they were making 400 appointment slots available today - December 20, for Notarial Service including issuing the Income Affidavit)

 

• They are aware that Immigration HQ in Bangkok has not yet issued instructions to regional offices on what documentation would be acceptable for proving you have 65,000 in monthly income but expected it [to] be sooner as their discussions about the income letters [were] last spring. He said there is a draft of the new Immigration Police Order, which he has seen, and he expects it to be sent out to Regional Offices in January.  [emphasis added]

 

• A big issue with Thai Immigration is they don't want to have to review the various types of documents that could be involved and seem to be focusing on evidence of transferring funds into a Thai bank from outside Thailand as the solution. [emphasis added]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by skatewash
formatting

[fforest1]

If only money from out side of Thailand can be used for income...Then that is like saying your money in Thailand is no good...Dont invest or start a income producing business in Thailand ever because that income and that money is no good....

Edited December 20, 2018 by fforest1

[skatewash]

3 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

If only money from out side of Thailand can be used for income...Then that is like saying your money in Thailand is no good...Dont invest or start a income producing business in Thailand ever because that income and that money is no good....

Fair point.

But the ultimate decision is going to be made by Thai Immigration and I believe from their perspective what is important is that there be an easy to apply way (certainly no harder than scanning an embassy income letter) to confirm that money is actually available to applicants in Thailand to support their expenses.  Arguments about fairness may be falling on deaf ears if to implement a notion of fairness it complicates the process. 

I've read a lot over the past few weeks about how the process can be made fair.  I honestly don't think that argument holds much weight with the people who will be making this decision.  They are, after all, tasked with implementing the process on a day-to-day basis and therefore I believe ease and simplicity will be their prime considerations.  They are not in the business of making their jobs more difficult.  Bureaucracies serve themselves first of all.  This is true the world over.
 

[Moonlover]

27 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

If only money from out side of Thailand can be used for income...Then that is like saying your money in Thailand is no good...Dont invest or start a income producing business in Thailand ever because that income and that money is no good....

Well, retirement is pretty self explanatory isn't it? You get a retirement extension on the understanding that 'work is not permitted'. So where else is the income going to come from other than outside the country?

 

For marriage extensions it's a bit different because work is permitted, however I'd consider it reasonable to expect the applicant to supply an underlying income at the very least. Most, of course provide all the income.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Moonlover

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, skatewash said:

A big issue with Thai Immigration is they don't want to have to review the various types of documents that could be involved and seem to be focusing on evidence of transferring funds into a Thai bank from outside Thailand as the solution.

Very pleased to read this particular paragraph. Hopefully the 'gloom and doom brigade' will finally accept that income based extensions are alive and well and coming to a TI office near you soon.

 

Many thanks to the O/P for posting this encouraging article.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, fforest1 said:

If only money from out side of Thailand can be used for income...Then that is like saying your money in Thailand is no good...Dont invest or start a income producing business in Thailand ever because that income and that money is no good....

They didn't say that they would not consider earnings in Thailand, though.  Those (tax-statements, etc) would not be hard for immigration to verify - would even be in the Thai language.

 

48 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Well, retirement is pretty self explanatory isn't it? You get a retirement extension on the understanding that 'work is not permitted'. So where else is the income going to come from other than outside the country?

One can own condos, businesses, and other income-generating investments in Thailand without violating "retirement" terms / needing a work-permit.

 

48 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

For marriage extensions it's a bit different because work is permitted, however I'd consider it reasonable to expect the applicant to supply an underlying income at the very least. Most, of course provide all the income.

It is common for those working in Thailand to provide evidence of their in-country income as part of their extension process - including those who choose to use a Non-O (family) vs a Non-B.

 

I share your hope that foreign bank-xfers will be key.  I'm still skpetical, given I can imagine how this "income" could easily be faked (thus reducing their planned agent-money windfall) - but hope you are right, as it would make it easy for me to just stick to a monthly xfer regime from a USA bank.  Better yet if I could xfer money quarterly - but even a monthly xfer option is better than nothing.

[mfd101]

Looking hopeful. Fingers crossed.

[JLCrab]

6 hours ago, JackThompson said:

given I can imagine how this "income" could easily be faked

Whether true or not, you could be asked to sign a statement to the IMM official to the effect that this money has not been faked and, if it has been faked, you have made a false police report in a Thai police station subject to arrest.

[Joe Mcseismic]

Seems that the people on all the other threads that said income in a Thai bank was the way it was going to go, were right. All those people that kept banging on about what immigration "should" do, which, funny enough coincided with remedying their own difficulties, really did have their head in the clouds. After being accused of "having a negative attitude", lacking "empathy" for my fellow expats and being accused of wanting to split up families, it's nice to be proved correct. The solution of money in the bank was sooooo obviously the way immigration would go, yet, so many posters were blinded by their own wishful thinking.

I blow a big, wet raspberry to all those people.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Joe Mcseismic

[JLCrab]

And remember this chestnut from the UK Embassy Bangkok Stop Pension Letter Service notice?

What do I do now? 
You should now show that you have the 
income required by the Thai authorities by 
transferring the minimum funds needed into a 
Thai bank account. 

 

 

UK SPP22.pdf

Edited December 20, 2018 by JLCrab

[Mike Teavee]

9 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Seems that the people on all the other threads that said income in a Thai bank was the way it was going to go, were right. All those people that kept banging on about what immigration "should" do, which, funny enough coincided with remedying their own difficulties, really did have their head in the clouds. After being accused of "having a negative attitude", lacking "empathy" for my fellow expats and being accused of wanting to split up families, it's nice to be proved correct. The solution of money in the bank was sooooo obviously the way immigration would go, yet, so many posters were blinded by their own wishful thinking.

I blow a big, wet raspberry to all those people.

... and I fart in their general direction, their father was a hamster & their mother smelt of elderberries... 

Joking aside, many thanks to @skatewashfor the OP, I'm still going to have the 800K in my account just in case things are still not clear by the time my extension is due (Mid-July), e.g. Frequency (monthly/quarterly/yearly) & duration (3 months, 6 months, 12 months of transfer history is still to be declared but will continue to transfer > 65k per month in so I can spend it down once things are clearer.

 

 

[onera1961]

9 hours ago, fforest1 said:

Then that is like saying your money in Thailand is no good...Dont invest or start a income producing business

May be it will still be accepted after proper verification of tax documents etc. But those cases are few and far between. It is not going to overwhelm IOs. Pension letters, SS letters, stat decs, and pension letter from all over the world can be an administrative burden. Just wait and see. 

 

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

Whether true or not, you could be asked to sign a statement to the IMM official to the effect that this money has not been faked and, if it has been faked, you have made a false police report in a Thai police station subject to arrest.

Just replacing one fake process (embassy letter) to another (faking money every month) but the later is more difficult, more expensive, and the country has more control for punishing the faker. 

 

1 hour ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

it's nice to be proved correct.

Nice to be vindicated.

 

It will be nice to see they add a clause that priority processing and special consideration will be given to agent submitted applications. ????

 

[JLCrab]

12 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Just replacing one fake process (embassy letter) to another (faking money every month) but the later is more difficult, more expensive, and the country has more control for punishing the faker. 

No in this case you would actually have to show (likely) a foreign transfer into your Thai bank account and, would you really want to make a false statement in a Thai police office to a Thai police officer who could arrest you on the spot?

 

But maybe, just maybe, the Thai IMM folks who may be the ones to implement this possible extension of stay route are aware of people like yourself who say that a monthly FTT-type deposit can be faked and are one step ahead of you?

Edited December 21, 2018 by JLCrab

[jacko45k]

11 hours ago, Moonlover said:

So where else is the income going to come from other than outside the country?

 

Are foreigners allowed to buy shares in Thai companies, Thai mutual funds and have Thai bank deposits? I believe that is allowed on a retirement extension.

[jacko45k]

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Whether true or not, you could be asked to sign a statement to the IMM official to the effect that this money has not been faked and, if it has been faked, you have made a false police report in a Thai police station subject to arrest.

As opposed to a false affidavit or Stat Dec previously?

[Moonlover]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

Are foreigners allowed to buy shares in Thai companies, Thai mutual funds and have Thai bank deposits? I believe that is allowed on a retirement extension.

That is something I cannot comment on, but it does seem to be a fair observation.

 

it seems reasonable that investment in Thailand should be an acceptable source of income, providing it doesn't involve work.

 

However, right now I'm concentrating on ensuring that I can prove my foreign sourced income meets TI's criteria.

[JLCrab]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Whether true or not, you could be asked to sign a statement to the IMM official to the effect that this money has not been faked and, if it has been faked, you have made a false police report in a Thai police station subject to arrest.

As opposed to a false affidavit or Stat Dec previously?

Absolutely because now -- as opposed to the paper tiger you mention -- you would be committing a criminal act standing 1 meter from a Thai police officer in a Thai police station.

[JLCrab]

12 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Are foreigners allowed to buy shares in Thai companies, Thai mutual funds and have Thai bank deposits? I believe that is allowed on a retirement extension.

Sure but from the OP how would you prove that without a bunch of source documents?

 

"A big issue with Thai Immigration is they don't want to have to review the various types of documents that could be involved and seem to be focusing on evidence of transferring funds into a Thai bank from outside Thailand as the solution."

[mfd101]

Well, let's not all break out the champers just yet. Personally I await the formal announcement, no doubt in immaculate English prose.

 

That said, as I have said several times before, everyone should now be gearing up for & preferably already doing the monthly 65K minimum transfer from outside Thailand. I did my 2nd monthly yesterday with TW, my first with them. I am impressed both with the ease of dealing with them & with the end result.

[a977]

46 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Absolutely because now -- as opposed to the paper tiger you mention -- you would be committing a criminal act standing 1 meter from a Thai police officer in a Thai police station.

As opposed to signing a false State Dec in front of your local Embassy officer, both are illegal and punishable under Thai law, even signing your photocopies for your Extension is like signing a Stat Dec. both are punishable under Thai law 

[JLCrab]

5 minutes ago, a977 said:

As opposed to signing a false State Dec in front of your local Embassy officer, both are illegal and punishable under Thai law, even signing your photocopies for your Extension is like signing a Stat Dec. both are punishable under Thai law 

Everyone knew the odds of anything happening with a false statement to an Embassy official were about zero. Let's see you walk into a Thai IMM Police station and sign a false declaration in front of a Thai IMM Police officer knowing that, if they suspect any malfeasance, they can arrest you on the spot.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interesting that, during the Chiang Mai consular public meeting, at least based on the summary of it posted in this forum, there was talk about the Embassy staff trying to educate the Thai Immigration folks about the different kinds of U.S. income documents (such as Social Security statements or other government pension docs) and at least some implication that some of those might be acceptable in the future for proving monthly income.

 

Now in this report, we're back to the "transfer funds into a Thai bank account" notion and no direct mention at all of being able to prove monthly income without having to import the funds into Thailand.

 

The only good news out of all this is, perhaps, there will be some official Immigration policy announced/posted in January that will finally, perhaps, bring some clarity to just what the new rules are going to be.

 

 

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

there will be some official Immigration policy announced/posted in January that will finally, perhaps, bring some clarity to just what the new rules are going to be.

Well we are sure that everything already mention here,  will perhaps occure sometime.

 

I personnaly don't believe anything from anyone ( foreign officials included ) anymore.

 

I just wait till an official amendment to the actual directives of T. I. is published.

 

 

 

 

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Whether true or not, you could be asked to sign a statement to the IMM official to the effect that this money has not been faked and, if it has been faked, you have made a false police report in a Thai police station subject to arrest.

Works for me.
 

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

...

and, would you really want to make a false statement in a Thai police office to a Thai police officer who could arrest you on the spot?

While that would undoubtedly be a difficult experience, that person would probably be offered a "deal" at the police station and, even if convicted, could just move to another more welcoming country after paying a fine and being deported.  The same crime is being committed by presenting a false-affidavit, as-is.

 

By contrast, a felony in one's passport-country could have more severe consequences, including significant prison-time, the loss of one's passport for an extended period, and difficulty obtaining gainful employment in the future.  A federal felony-record (in the USA) is For Life, unless you can get a presidential pardon.

 

The issue, in either case, would be proving the offense occurred - but the passport-country would usually have better access to one's complete financial info to make such a case.  This is why the embassy-letters were by far the superior deterrent to fraud. 

 

Of course, ongoing policy indicates immigration does not actually care about "fraud" - only reduced agent-tribute.  Embassy-letters, whether accurate or not, were a significant impediment to that stream of revenue.

 

3 hours ago, JLCrab said:

But maybe, just maybe, the Thai IMM folks who may be the ones to implement this possible extension of stay route are aware of people like yourself who say that a monthly FTT-type deposit can be faked and are one step ahead of you?

There are 2 different groups who could be "agent-money harvested" from this change - those who really don't have the stated-income, and those do have it, but cannot import it all easily. 

 

No doubt they are aware, and cursing how the myriad of untraceable workarounds could reduce agent-laundered under-the-table revenue.  But, if agent-fees are kept at a reasonable level, the vast majority in both affected-groups will pay them off via an agent, to avoid the hassle of sending money in circles with attendant fees.

 

Please keep in mind - this is coming from someone who has gone to great trouble to avoid paying into the agent-system.  This effort is not saving me any money, but I have family here, and have no desire to do anything which could be used to wreck that.

Edited December 21, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

Well, let's not all break out the champers just yet. Personally I await the formal announcement, no doubt in immaculate English prose.

 

That said, as I have said several times before, everyone should now be gearing up for & preferably already doing the monthly 65K minimum transfer from outside Thailand. I did my 2nd monthly yesterday with TW, my first with them. I am impressed both with the ease of dealing with them & with the end result.

I hope your Transferwise showed up as a foreign-transfer in your bank-statement.  Some report it does not always appear this way. 

 

I would not expect immigration to accept a PDF printout from transferwise or foreign-bank statements as "evidence" that a deposit showing as non-foreign in one's Thai bank-statement actually had a foreign-source.

[JLCrab]

BS Jack in Thailand, if they suspect you have made a false statement to a Thai IMM Police officer, they can arrest you and the burden of proof would be on you to prove otherwise.

[JackThompson]

7 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

BS Jack in Thailand, if they suspect you have made a false statement to a Thai IMM Police officer, they can arrest you and the burden of proof would be on you to prove otherwise.

In that case, everyone is at risk, regardless of their honesty.   In my case, would they believe my foreign-company documents and bank-statements are genuine?  What about the income from your mine in Madagascar?  If the point of all this was streamlining the process, so they didn't have to try to interpret/verify foreign-sourced documents, arresting people randomly, absent any evidence, would not be helpful to that end.

 

But, it's food for thought.  All the more reason I'll stick with a Non-O Visa for now.  The MFA doesn't have an "agent-money" system to bolster - potentially by falsely-accusing people of crimes - if what you suggest were to become policy.

[JLCrab]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

But, it's food for thought. 

No I've already barfed on your voluminous verbiage food for thought. If the Thai IMM actually does put in a monthly income extension of stay via an FTT-type bank deposit, they'll either have to find ways to scuttle the 'myriad' workarounds or just put up with them.

 

I'll just wait for any official announcement.

Edited December 21, 2018 by JLCrab

[Moonlover]

5 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Seems that the people on all the other threads that said income in a Thai bank was the way it was going to go, were right. All those people that kept banging on about what immigration "should" do, which, funny enough coincided with remedying their own difficulties, really did have their head in the clouds. After being accused of "having a negative attitude", lacking "empathy" for my fellow expats and being accused of wanting to split up families, it's nice to be proved correct. The solution of money in the bank was sooooo obviously the way immigration would go, yet, so many posters were blinded by their own wishful thinking.

I blow a big, wet raspberry to all those people.

I sure know what you mean Joe. It was getting to the stage where it was heresy to mention 'monthly income'.

 

What I couldn't understand was that both the Brit and the US embassies said quite clearly, right from the start, that it would be possible, yet many took no notice at all. Even calling them liars.

 

As the saying goes 'there's none so blind as those who refuse to see'.

 

Have a nice day.

 

ML

[farangx]

7 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Whether true or not, you could be asked to sign a statement to the IMM official to the effect that this money has not been faked and, if it has been faked, you have made a false police report in a Thai police station subject to arrest.

And be subjected to a fine and ban from entering the country.