Do i need Permanent Residence?

[mipenrai]

Hi do i need permanent residence?

What is the benefit of having it.

I already have a house and land and company all in the company name, i have an alien ID card (the pink one) a house book yellow and blue, a work permit and a business visa (work permit and visa very expensive as they want all there extra money under the table).

I am not married but have a Thai child whom has English and Thai birth certificate as well as dual passports.

Can anybody tell me the benefits and negatives of this, Thanks in advance. 

[jackdd]

You don't need to have it, but if you plan to spend your whole life in Thailand it makes sense to get permanent residency, so you can be sure you are able to stay here and don't have to leave because of visa issues. You also won't have to apply for extensions anymore or make 90 day reports.

The only negatives are the initial costs and the time spend for the procedure, but long term it only has advantages.

[gamini]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

You don't need to have it, but if you plan to spend your whole life in Thailand it makes sense to get permanent residency, so you can be sure you are able to stay here and don't have to leave because of visa issues. You also won't have to apply for extensions anymore or make 90 day reports.

The only negatives are the initial costs and the time spend for the procedure, but long term it only has advantages.

You forgot one very important point. You have to pay income tax! But if you're retired, it's so easy now to get a retirement Visa, but if you are a long way from retirement then I think permanent residence is worth it.

[Briggsy]

53 minutes ago, gamini said:

You forgot one very important point. You have to pay income tax! But if you're retired, it's so easy now to get a retirement Visa, but if you are a long way from retirement then I think permanent residence is worth it.

This post may be confusing. I will clarify.

 

In order to even apply for permanent residence you need income tax receipts for the last 3 consecutive years showing income tax paid of at least 80,000 Baht per year (I am not 100% sure of the precise amount).

 

In addition the application window only opens in November/December for a period of a few weeks.

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

This post may be confusing. I will clarify.

 

In order to even apply for permanent residence you need income tax receipts for the last 3 consecutive years showing income tax paid of at least 80,000 Baht per year (I am not 100% sure of the precise amount).

 

In addition the application window only opens in November/December for a period of a few weeks.

–And in other threads it has been mentioned that it's limited to 100 applications per country (if not changed recently) per year – so having a small home country might help – furthermore there is a Thai language test.

[khunPer]

This guide for Permanent Residence was posted in 2006, I think it's still valid...

????

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

11 hours ago, mipenrai said:

I am not married but have a Thai child whom has English and Thai birth certificate as well as dual passports

Doesn't having a Thai child make you eligible to skip PR and apply for citizenship? I'm not sure about that, but If so, in that case the answer is no, you don't need PR, you can instead apply directly for Thai Citizenship, a vastly cheaper and arguably more useful option.

 

Otherwise, are you in a relationship? Might be worth just getting that piece of paper. Marriage = direct application for citizenship.

 

About the PR, there are two major negatives that I can see. Firstly is the cost. Secondly, you still have to get re-entry permits every time you set foot out of the country for christ's sake. I find this utterly absurd.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by NilSS

[Hanuman2547]

6 hours ago, NilSS said:

Doesn't having a Thai child make you eligible to skip PR and apply for citizenship? I'm not sure about that, but If so, in that case the answer is no, you don't need PR, you can instead apply directly for Thai Citizenship, a vastly cheaper and arguably more useful option.

 

I'll go on a limb here and say no.  A friend of mine has lived in Bangkok for over 25 years but just recently got PR about three years ago.  Both he and his Thai wife have a daughter about 14 years old.  In addition they have been married for around 20 years.  If what you say is true he probably wouldn't have chosen to get PR and instead gone ahead and got Thai citizenship.  

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, Hanuman2547 said:

I'll go on a limb here and say no.  A friend of mine has lived in Bangkok for over 25 years but just recently got PR about three years ago.  Both he and his Thai wife have a daughter about 14 years old.  In addition they have been married for around 20 years.  If what you say is true he probably wouldn't have chosen to get PR and instead gone ahead and got Thai citizenship.   

If you have a Thai wife you can directly get Thai citizenship, i'm not sure how it is with "just" a child, but your friend could have gone directly for citizenship.

But maybe he is from a country which doesn't allow dual citizenship if it isn't because of birth but because you got naturalized. For example Germany forbids this, so if i would acquire Thai citizenship i would have to renounce my German citizenship, which means i would never do this and only go for permanent residency. There are probably more countries with such laws.

[impulse]

10 minutes ago, jackdd said:

If you have a Thai wife you can directly get Thai citizenship, i'm not sure how it is with "just" a child, but your friend could have gone directly for citizenship.

 

I have a co-worker that went that way with a Thai wife, 2 (grown) Thai kids with her, and around 20 years of working legally in Thailand, and a multi-million dollar net worth.  It took him years to get the passport.  He may have gotten it "directly", but it was far from a slam dunk.

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by impulse

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

1 hour ago, Hanuman2547 said:

I'll go on a limb here and say no.  A friend of mine has lived in Bangkok for over 25 years but just recently got PR about three years ago.  Both he and his Thai wife have a daughter about 14 years old.  In addition they have been married for around 20 years.  If what you say is true he probably wouldn't have chosen to get PR and instead gone ahead and got Thai citizenship.  

I assure you that with a Thai wife, he could have gone directly for citizenship. It's the eligibility with kids that I'm not sure about.

Regarding the citizenship, there an excellent, but VERY long thread about that on the forums here somewhere that's been running for over ten years. . .

 

 

 

Note that the above thread was started BEFORE the most recent changes in nationality law. Read in it's entirety when you have time.

Edited December 22, 2018 by NilSS

[KiChakayan]

17 hours ago, NilSS said:

Doesn't having a Thai child make you eligible to skip PR and apply for citizenship? I'm not sure about that, but If so, in that case the answer is no, you don't need PR, you can instead apply directly for Thai Citizenship, a vastly cheaper and arguably more useful option.

This has been answered on many threads, and it is no. A male has to show three years of continuous, legal and tax paying activity to get his application for PR or citizenship considered. Requirement for females are different, 5555.

Now, on a personal note, if you asked me if I'd want PR if I could get it, I'd say definitely yes. If you asked me if I wanted to get Thai citizenship, I'd say definitely NO. There is a borderline somewhere I just couldn't cross. A bit like asking if I want to become Martian.

Edited December 23, 2018 by KiChakayan

[KittenKong]

On 12/22/2018 at 8:44 AM, jackdd said:

You don't need to have it, but if you plan to spend your whole life in Thailand it makes sense to get permanent residency, so you can be sure you are able to stay here and don't have to leave because of visa issues.

Just because the thing is called "permanent" doesnt make it so. It can be revoked at any time by the government and if you leave the country you can always be denied re-entry by an immigration official.

 

People with so-called "permanent residency" are not really any more secure than anyone else, except in as much as they dont actually need to ask for their permission to stay to be renewed every year. The same applies to the various Thai Elite visas: they may last for 5 or 10 years or whatever, but all can be revoked and with all of them entry can be denied.

 

You want security of tenure? Get a Thai passport. Everything else is merely temporary. Would I want one? No. I'm happy to be just passing through, albeit slowly.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Just because the thing is called "permanent" doesnt make it so. It can be revoked at any time by the government and if you leave the country you can always be denied re-entry by an immigration official.

That is not true. It is very hard for permanent residency to be revoked. It has to be done at the ministerial level and it has to be for a serious infraction of a Thai law. Same for entering the country unless a person did not have a valid re-entry permit.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not true. It is very hard for permanent residency to be revoked. It has to be done at the ministerial level and it has to be for a serious infraction of a Thai law. Same for entering the country unless a person did not have a valid re-entry permit.

That doesnt make it permanent, as I pointed out.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

Just because the thing is called "permanent" doesnt make it so. It can be revoked at any time by the government and if you leave the country you can always be denied re-entry by an immigration official.

 

People with so-called "permanent residency" are not really any more secure than anyone else, except in as much as they dont actually need to ask for their permission to stay to be renewed every year. The same applies to the various Thai Elite visas: they may last for 5 or 10 years or whatever, but all can be revoked and with all of them entry can be denied.

 

You want security of tenure? Get a Thai passport. Everything else is merely temporary. Would I want one? No. I'm happy to be just passing through, albeit slowly.

If you got Thai citizenship by naturalization it can also be revoked, so even that is not 100% safe ????

Even if permanent residency is not 100% permanent it's still much safer than staying on temporary visas / extensions

[KittenKong]

11 minutes ago, jackdd said:

If you got Thai citizenship by naturalization it can also be revoked, so even that is not 100% safe

True, but it is the only thing that is close to being "permanent".

 

12 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Even if permanent residency is not 100% permanent it's still much safer than staying on temporary visas / extensions

Debatable. I have no reason to feel "unsafe" about my yearly extension and having PR would not make me feel safer. Maybe people who are doing something crooked feel a bit safer by having it, but I'm not in that category.

 

For more accuracy PR should be relabelled "long term residency".

[rumak]

51 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

That doesnt make it permanent, as I pointed out.

but some of the other "points" you made were YOUR take on it, .....like "can be revoked at any time".. and

"entry can be denied".....

it is a matter of the possibility of the actually happening, as UJ points out.  Not likely

 

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by rumak

[ExpatDraco]

What exactly is the tax requirement for PR? 3 years of continuously paying income tax, but is there a minimum amount required?

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, ExpatDraco said:

What exactly is the tax requirement for PR? 3 years of continuously paying income tax, but is there a minimum amount required?

A salary of 80k baht is required to apply. If married to a Thai it is 50k baht.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, rumak said:

but some of the other "points" you made were YOUR take on it, .....like "can be revoked at any time".. and

"entry can be denied".....

it is a matter of the possibility of the actually happening, as UJ points out.  Not likely

Likely or not, it still isn't permanent. And personally I dont see that it's any more or less likely that my own extension would be cancelled, though it could be, and I certainly dont live under the illusion that my extension counts for very much.

And let's not forget that the government could also unilaterally suspend or cancel PR altogether, if they wanted to for whatever reason or even for no reason. It is not a right.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

A salary of 80k baht is required to apply. If married to a Thai it is 50k baht.

Not sure why anyone that comes from a country that allows dual citizenship would go for the PR if married to a Thai.

 

The salary required for citizenship is only 40k and application fee 5k baht, a fraction of the price for PR.

 

PR, IMHO, is only useful for single people, or those from countries like China and India.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Neeranam

[jackdd]

17 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Likely or not, it still isn't permanent. And personally I dont see that it's any more or less likely that my own extension would be cancelled, though it could be, and I certainly dont live under the illusion that my extension counts for very much.

And let's not forget that the government could also unilaterally suspend or cancel PR altogether, if they wanted to for whatever reason or even for no reason. It is not a right. 

I think "permanent residence" is a term used solely by people talking in english anyway, to make it more easy to understand for foreigners. It doesn't make much sense to discuss about the minor details of it's definition.

Afaik actually Thai law knows two main types of foreigners legally staying in Thailand: Residents and temporary visitors

I expect that many years ago when these laws were made the line was quite strict. For example a "certificate of residence" which can be obtained by anybody at most immigration offices today was probably never intended for "temporary visitors" going by it's name, but actually for residents.

But if you tell somebody who did maybe stay in Thailand for 10 years working here on non-B that he is a temporary visitor he might get confused and tell you that he is a resident here. Actually according to Thai law he isn't, but to make it more easy for everybody to understand the english terminology "resident" is used for people who are here on long stay visas and to differentiate them from "real" residents, the real residents are called "permanent residents".

[ExpatDraco]

A salary of 80k baht is required to apply. If married to a Thai it is 50k baht.

80k a month for 3 years? Or only when you apply after 3 years? Extreme example: 35 months salary of 50k and the last month a salary of 80k?

[Neeranam]

53 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Afaik actually Thai law knows two main types of foreigners legally staying in Thailand: Residents and temporary visitors

Do you have a link to this information?

I thought there were other types of alien.

 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

8 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

This has been answered on many threads, and it is no. A male has to show three years of continuous, legal and tax paying activity to get his application for PR or citizenship considered. Requirement for females are different, 5555.

Now, on a personal note, if you asked me if I'd want PR if I could get it, I'd say definitely yes. If you asked me if I wanted to get Thai citizenship, I'd say definitely NO. There is a borderline somewhere I just couldn't cross. A bit like asking if I want to become Martian.

Yes yes I know the residency requirements to be eligible to apply, but I'm unsure about the having Thai kids. Is that what you refer to? It's not clear. If so, please highlight a post where this is confirmed, you say there are many.

 

About becoming a Martian, if you feel that being handed a little burgundy book changes who or what you are, then I can sure see why this would be a problem for you. Myself, I'm a closet anarchist, so I see getting any passport as being coerced into compliance and in this case a tool of convenience. Try as I might, I can't think of a single disadvantage to the citizenship route over PR, only numerous advantages. Someone said to me I lose diplomatic representation rights for my origin country. Not true, I'm still a citizen of that country (please don't tell me I have to renounce, it's simply not true) and whether a dual national or not, that country cannot interfere with the legal process here anyway.

 

So, what are the disadvantages as you see them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by NilSS

[scorecard]

On 12/22/2018 at 11:59 AM, Briggsy said:

This post may be confusing. I will clarify.

 

In order to even apply for permanent residence you need income tax receipts for the last 3 consecutive years showing income tax paid of at least 80,000 Baht per year (I am not 100% sure of the precise amount).

 

In addition the application window only opens in November/December for a period of a few weeks.

Plus copies of work permits for the same years as indicated on the annual tax clearance document. 

[ExpatDraco]

Plus copies of work permits for the same years as indicated on the annual tax clearance document. 

But what is the ruling? 80k thb paid in taxes/year or 80k thb salary/month?

[Neeranam]

25 minutes ago, NilSS said:

Try as I might, I can't think of a single disadvantage to the citizenship route over PR, only numerous advantages. Someone said to me I lose diplomatic 

I also can see no disadvantages. There's only one friend I had who chose not to get citizenship but just PR. He could have got it pretty easily as he had some extremely influential friends, living in Thailand for decades. He had the order of the white elephant from the king, and was first secretary at the US embassy. 

I think some people, especially older ones are very nationalistic and the thought of becoming Thai scares them.

[Neeranam]

13 minutes ago, ExpatDraco said:

20 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Plus copies of work permits for the same years as indicated on the annual tax clearance document. 

But what is the ruling? 80k thb paid in taxes/year or 80k thb salary/month?

Tax paid on a salary of 80k a month.