They refused my entry into Thailand

[JackThompson]

7 minutes ago, DieterK said:

Hello,

while reading this, I´m getting a bit nervous about my upcoming border bounce.
My question is, should I pack all my stuff and bring to the border (clothes, laptop, etc.) to have it with me, if they deny my entry?

 

So far my history this year:

...

- Planned: Dec 2018 Border bounce at Padang Besar

 

I have 20K, proof of hotel booking, proof of onward flight.

Only the history looks a bit "too much".

 

Whats your opinion?

 

Thanks in advance!

I always carry my laptop and enough clothes for 2 days - even for same-day border-bounces on a Non-O-ME - because "you never know."  So far, reports at that entry point - they may ask to see the 20K Baht in cash, but no SETV or METV Denials, except one for a visitor with several (short) overstays.

 

When I was using Tourist Visas, I also had a plan to have any other stuff brought to a border or shipped to me if I was denied-entry.  My then-gf / now-wife was that person, but it could be anyone you trust, and who has said they are willing and able to do this. 

[crazygreg44]

Klaus, is there anything else that coud have been causing the Immigration officer to deny you entry?  Is there anything on your Facebook page that indicates you are living in Thailand as a yoga teacher, repairing broken phones or being a dive instructor, whilst in the country with a METV ?

Edited December 23, 2018 by crazygreg44

[BahnTH]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

No it is not. I could spend all night drinking in Sukhumvit side walk bars. Gone. I am asked to undergo a urine test this year just after I arrived from Amsterdam. You know what happens. Yes, they found something which is perfectly legal in Amsterdam and I had to bribe. This is a police state. People in power can make up any rules they want. This place is also becoming expensive. I just spent one moth in Benidorm and my expenditures are almost the same as a tourist in Bangkok. Bangkok is now in the top 100 most expensive city for the expats. Thailand has lost its charms. 

 

Refusing entry with an METV is outrageous. 

 

Yeah, my take on this is our friend got belligerent or angry and they just went "screw this guy!". He should not have been denied entry. I'd like Klaus to talk about his demeanour. He's the only one who really knows. Just a theory.

 

Lesson here is go by the entry points that play it straight, and travel light, carry on baggage. Anything big, leave with a friend in your country. Wallet, keys, phone, passport, a little clothes, what do you really need to travel? Leave all your big heavy stuff with your gf, or in a locker. I spend a lot of time at airports and wonder why people feel the need to pack their entire house when they go on holiday.

 

As for Thailand. I got interviewed last time and I was immediately thinking "Screw this country! I'm going to stay in Vietnam instead! It's so much cheaper!". Then I got to a bar with my friends and you immediately chill out and remember why this country is my favorite in the world. Got to work on that welcoming committee though. ????

Edited December 23, 2018 by BahnTH

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

<snip>

 

Easy to end that - it's the same solution in all countries.  In this case, go where the boats leave the docks and bust all involved.  Give the illegal-workers and their bosses the max in jail and fines (increase the legal-max in the law, if necessary, to create a sufficient deterrent).  After that, no one will dare to work or hire illegally here any more.  

 

This goal can Never Be Accomplished by immigration - only by officials where the illegal work is occurring.  There is no sense trashing Thailand's reputation having IOs make uninformed guesses, if stopping illegal work were actually the goal.

 

One cannot "be living here" and "spend months at home every year" at the same time. 

 

<snip>

Your comment about 'easy to end' has nothing to do with my comment.

You often indicate westerners are not working here illegally due to low wages, totally wrong.

In this thread somebody else mentioned that he doubted the OP was working illegally since he was not in country for 5 months in a row.

Wrong, many people work here 5, 6, 7 months a year.

 

Of course one can live here and spend months at home every year. 5 months a year at home would be ample time, but with 7 months a year here people would be living in Thailand. Many countries require a presence of minimum 4 months a year in order to be a legal resident there.

 

[JackThompson]

14 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Your comment about 'easy to end' has nothing to do with my comment.

I believe it does, because Immigration checkpoints are the wrong place to address the type of illegal-work you were referring to.  It is unfair to both IOs and travelers, to attempt this.  There is no way a visitor can "prove a negative."

 

14 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You often indicate westerners are not working here illegally due to low wages, totally wrong.

English Teachers are usually cited.  In your case, Dive instructors.  In any case, both would be easy to find and punish, if that were the actual goal.

 

14 minutes ago, stevenl said:

In this thread somebody else mentioned that he doubted the OP was working illegally since he was not in country for 5 months in a row.

As dive-instructors, perhaps.  Most jobs - even "under the table" jobs, would not allow one to take 5+ month vacations from work every year.  There are other "high season" jobs - but serving, cleaning, bartending, etc are unlikely to be done by illegal foreign-workers from higher-wage nations (like Italy, in this case).

 

14 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Of course one can live here and spend months at home every year. 5 months a year at home would be ample time, but with 7 months a year here people would be living in Thailand. Many countries require a presence of minimum 4 months a year in order to be a legal resident there.

There is no known time / "living here" standard relating to Tourist Visas in law or published rule.  Unless or until that changes, it is not relevant to lawfully granting or denying an entry with a valid Tourist Visa.

 

Only foreigners with PR or Citizenship have anything approximating "legal residence" in Thailand, as we would define that term in most other countries.  The rest of us get "non-immigrant" or "tourist" type stays, good for 1-year max (even the elite), before needing to request another year.

[gamini]

A lot of people on this forum don't seem to realise that six months is the norm that a person can stay as a tourist. This is the same in most countries so why criticise Thailand.

Six months is very reasonable. After all you cannot expect to stay more than this and not pay any tax. If you have enough money to be able to stay in Thailand indefinitely then you should get an elite visa. This

[time2093]

Sounds to me like the OP is just another random guy trying to live in Thailand with Tourist Visa just like the other hundreds of people being denied entry these days. I'm afraid those days are over as most tourists don't stay in Thailand for 8 months out of a year even if it is broken down to staying 5 months leaving the country and coming back for 3 months.

[LivinLOS]

17 hours ago, elviajero said:

It is not about not being wanted. The METV visa is not meant to be used to "live" in the country.

88 days !!! 

A METV is designed to stay for longer than 88 days though !!! 

[farangx]

7 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

i agree, my interpretation is it's meant to be used for extended tourist visits with or without multiple entries. the op was out of the country for 5 months and then spent 3 months here which was roughly half the METV's duration and could only be defined as an extended tourist visit (unless a 3 month stay is now classes as permanent residency lol!). 

 

on his allowed reentry he was denied re-entry.

 

it all seems above board to me. otherwise why issue tourist visas with 6 month durations!?

 

 

OP got 2 METVs this year which he used to live in Thailand for 7 months, the other 5 months he was on holiday outside the country (Thailand).  He is allowed that holiday, just like I was outside Thailand for almost 8 months this year even though I am on a retirement visa here.

 

6 months duration METV are meant for genuine tourists, to save them the trouble of getting another SETV, it is about convenience and not about living here with it.

 

 

[jackdd]

8 minutes ago, gamini said:

A lot of people on this forum don't seem to realise that six months is the norm that a person can stay as a tourist. This is the same in most countries so why criticise Thailand.

People here don't criticize Thailand, people criticize IOs who make up their own rules. Thailand just doesn't have a six months limit, doesn't matter that other countries have it.

[Straight8]

19 hours ago, Briggsy said:

Where are you now? KL?

Catch a train to Thailand. You have a good chance of entry. Your visa is still valid.

Even with that "red" stamp in his passport?

[Just Weird]

2 minutes ago, jackdd said:

People here don't criticize Thailand, people criticize IOs who make up their own rules. Thailand just doesn't have a six months limit, doesn't matter that other countries have it.

"People here don't criticize Thailand.."

Really?  That's a joke, most members do nothing else but criticize Thailand!

 

"...IOs who make up their own rules".

Immigration Officers, as competent officials, by the very nature of their job are given the authority to decide who is permitted to enter the country just as in every other country in the world!

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, Just Weird said:

Immigration Officers, as competent officials, by the very nature of their job are given the authority to decide who is permitted to enter the country just as in every other country in the world!

No, they don't have this authority, they can only deny people for reasons outlined in the law and nothing else.

Why else would the IO tell OP that he can't make holiday more than 180 days in Thailand per year, but then give him a denied entry stamp stating the reason as "going to work in Thailand"?

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, BahnTH said:

Yeah, my take on this is our friend got belligerent or angry and they just went "screw this guy!". He should not have been denied entry.

Where are you getting this from? I see absolutely no indication that he was being belligerent in anything that he says in his account of how he was denied entry. His description of telling then about his girlfriend, how he liked Thailand and that he had sufficient money does not betray any hints of belligerence to me.

[Straight8]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

It still is that place, if you enter at law-abiding entry points, or once you get past the bad immigration points.

It is nowhere near that place, so whatever you're smoking, must be some good sh!t.

[BahnTH]

13 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Where are you getting this from? I see absolutely no indication that he was being belligerent in anything that he says in his account of how he was denied entry. His description of telling then about his girlfriend, how he liked Thailand and that he had sufficient money does not betray any hints of belligerence to me.

 

On the basis of "eliminate everything else". Valid visa, out the country for a decent amount of time, here's my 20,000 Baht in cash, right on the table, boom! In fact more than 20,000. No job required.

 

And the lad did get a little hot in the thread.

 

When in a position of zero leverage there's nothing left but honey.

 

I'm no House but that's my theory.

Edited December 23, 2018 by BahnTH

[Straight8]

6 minutes ago, BahnTH said:

 

On the basis of "eliminate everything else". Valid visa, out the country for a decent amount of time, here's my 20,000 Baht in cash, right on the table, boom!

 

And the lad did get a little hot in the thread.

 

When in a position of zero leverage there's nothing left but honey.

 

I'm no House but that's my theory.

Since this has just happened to him, I'm sure it's no surprises he's just a little pizzed off right about now!!

 

 

[farangx]

2 minutes ago, Straight8 said:

Since this has just happened to him, I'm sure it's no surprises he's just a little pizzed off right about now!!

 

What is he trying to proof by showing that 20K when already living here for more than 2 months, especially when retirees are here on 65K a month.

 

[jacko45k]

5 hours ago, mngmn said:

Until of course they start tightening up retirement extensions ????

Bit late on that aren't you?

[Briggsy]

Just now, farangx said:

What is he trying to proof by showing that 20K when already living here for more than 2 months, especially when retirees are here on 65K a month.

 

You clueless clown. You are posting one incorrect statement after another.

Carrying 20,000 Baht or equivalent in cash denies the IO the opportunity to deny entry under that section of Thai law.

Frankly if you do not know what you're talking about, wind your neck in.

[farangx]

10 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

12 minutes ago, farangx said:

What is he trying to proof by showing that 20K when already living here for more than 2 months, especially when retirees are here on 65K a month.

 

You clueless clown. You are posting one incorrect statement after another.

Carrying 20,000 Baht or equivalent in cash denies the IO the opportunity to deny entry under that section of Thai law.

Frankly if you do not know what you're talking about, wind your neck in.

Unfortunately that IO don't believe his 20K is enough for him to live in Thailand for a few months.  He has to work here illegally to support himself.  So he gave him a red stamp, what's the big deal.  He can still visit Thailand in future as a real tourist.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by farangx

[JackThompson]

53 minutes ago, gamini said:

A lot of people on this forum don't seem to realise that six months is the norm that a person can stay as a tourist. This is the same in most countries so why criticise Thailand.

Six months is very reasonable. After all you cannot expect to stay more than this and not pay any tax. If you have enough money to be able to stay in Thailand indefinitely then you should get an elite visa. This

That may be "the norm" in higher-wage nations.  It is not the norm in Cambodia, Vietnam, or The Philippines - nor was it ever so in Thailand, except recently, but only as interpreted by some IOs/supervisors at a few entry-points absent any law or published rule to back up their claim. 

 

39 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

"People here don't criticize Thailand.."

Really?  That's a joke, most members do nothing else but criticize Thailand! 

Criticizing the practices experienced at bad-immigration offices and entry-points is not in any way criticizing "The Country of Thailand" - it's people, culture, and traditions.  Wanting fair, and predictable treatment by immigration - consistently at every checkpoint and office in the country - is not unreasonable.

 

39 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

"...IOs who make up their own rules".

Immigration Officers, as competent officials, by the very nature of their job are given the authority to decide who is permitted to enter the country just as in every other country in the world! 

The laws vary by country.  In Thailand there are specific and limited reasons to deny-entry to a person with a Tourist Visa.  IOs do not have the legal authority to add new items to that list.  "Too much time in-country" is not one of the valid reasons to deny entry in this case - yet it has been reported as cited by IOs many times.

[MaksimMislavsky]

4 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

what the hell happened to this country? it used to be such a fun loving, free, easy going place.

and for this very reason it got overwhelmed by fun-loving visitors/expats, naturally necessitating them to tighten up. It was bound to happen. The money brought in (or not) by visitors is no longer their primary concern.

[jackdd]

8 minutes ago, farangx said:

Unfortunately that IO don't believe his 20K is enough for him to live in Thailand for a few months.  He has to work here illegally to support himself.  So he gave him a red stamp, what's the big deal.  He can still visit Thailand in future as a real tourist.

OP got his METV visa 3 months ago, back then he proved that he has at least 185k THB, and i'm sure it's quite common for people to have credit cards with which they can get more money while being abroad other than the cash that they carry ????

You seem to have no idea what you are talking

[GeorgeCross]

39 minutes ago, Straight8 said:

It is nowhere near that place, so whatever you're smoking, must be some good sh!t.

 

exactly just to emphasize:

if i go drinking with my friends i'm afraid i'll be breathalyzed on the way home
if i take my laptop out i'm afraid the random police stops will accuse me of working illegally
if i go to bangkok i'm afraid i'll be stopped, searched or drug tested
if i go to immigration i'm afraid my extension will be denied
and if i leave the country i'm afraid i won't be let back in

I am NOT an anxious person, i live by the rules and i have never felt like this in the first TEN years i was in Thailand

i do now. and it sucks. 

myself and too many friends have been taken advantage of this last couple of years by dirty corrupt <deleted> in uniforms to deny anything but.

and this is why unfortunately all my friends from home swerve thailand now and we meet up in countries nearby.
 

[farangx]

2 minutes ago, jackdd said:

OP got his METV visa 3 months ago, back then he proved that he has at least 185k THB, and i'm sure it's quite common for people to have credit cards with which they can get more money while being abroad other than the cash that they carry ????

You seem to have no idea what you are talking

Before that he was in Thailand from January to May.  Credit cards are common, some places don't even except cash. I have no idea if OP showed the IO what's left on his credit limits.

 

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, onera1961 said:

No it is not. I could spend all night drinking in Sukhumvit side walk bars. Gone. I am asked to undergo a urine test this year just after I arrived from Amsterdam. You know what happens. Yes, they found something which is perfectly legal in Amsterdam and I had to bribe. This is a police state. People in power can make up any rules they want. This place is also becoming expensive. I just spent one moth in Benidorm and my expenditures are almost the same as a tourist in Bangkok. Bangkok is now in the top 100 most expensive city for the expats. Thailand has lost its charms. 

 

Refusing entry with an METV is outrageous. 

 

38 minutes ago, Straight8 said:

It is nowhere near that place, so whatever you're smoking, must be some good sh!t.

I suppose I have the benefit of not experiencing Thailand in the "good old days" - so compare my relative freedom to that in police-state USA - where every trip to work or the store runs a gauntlet of police.  Hours on the roads and highways here, but have not seen cars pulled-over left and right like the USA.  Seems much better to me.

 

I spent years of total-time in the Jomtien Beach area before moving to the boonies.  During all that time, I never had a bad-experience with the police and found the cost of living quite reasonable.  I spent a few months in Bangkok maybe 3 years ago - did not find it expensive, and the people were friendly.  I did see a drug-bust go down from my balcony once - done very professionally, with no shots fired or even minor-violence.  Excellent training and execution. I was impressed. 

 

Maybe it helps that I never smoke funny-cigs, or hung out places where I might be questioned about that sort of thing.  I'm not saying you did, Onera - maybe I've just had good luck.  But, I would have passed the urine-test, in any case.  It is sad to hear of people busted for it here, and the hell they are put through over a fairly benign thing - but the Thai attitude on that substance is not a new thing. 

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

No, they don't have this authority, they can only deny people for reasons outlined in the law and nothing else.

Why else would the IO tell OP that he can't make holiday more than 180 days in Thailand per year, but then give him a denied entry stamp stating the reason as "going to work in Thailand"?

If you stay more than 180 days in a country, you become a tax resident.  

[jackdd]

5 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

If you stay more than 180 days in a country, you become a tax resident.   

"in a country"? In Thailand yes, but not necessarily in other countries.

Tax residency doesn't say anything about that you are going to work.

[JackThompson]

52 minutes ago, farangx said:

What is he trying to proof by showing that 20K when already living here for more than 2 months, especially when retirees are here on 65K a month.

They set the 20K in cash rule - not us.  If they want to make it more, let them publish exactly how much we need to show, and in what form - then ensure every airline won't let anyone board without it (same one must show outgoing tickets if coming w/o a Visa).

Note that he already showed about 160K Baht in his home bank-acct, minimum for 5 months, to get his METV.  Again, if that's not enough, let them change it to something that satisfies them.  But, for gosh-sake, accept people who legally use their Visas issued under their rules.  If immigration has a beef with the MFA, let them set up Muay-Thai bouts to settle their differences, but leave us out of it.

 

3 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

If you stay more than 180 days in a country, you become a tax resident.  

Not related to immigration-law - but if they want us to start filing tax-returns, even with no taxes owed, then they can require this from everyone here over 180 days.  At that point, we can be held to account for that then-published requirement.

 

37 minutes ago, MaksimMislavsky said:

and for this very reason it got overwhelmed by fun-loving visitors/expats, naturally necessitating them to tighten up. It was bound to happen. The money brought in (or not) by visitors is no longer their primary concern.

What is your theory, as to their motivations for this?  I think it's about agent and elite money streams - or possibly the Chinese buying policy.  I cannot find any other logical reason / motivation.