Here's an interesting story from a Colonel who was in Ramadi:

"“If you talk to these sheiks, they’ll tell you that they’re in no hurry to see the Americans leave al-Anbar,” he said.

“One thing Sheikh Sattar keeps saying is he wants al-Anbar to be like Germany and Japan and South Korea were after their respective wars, with a long-term American presence helping ... put them back together,” MacFarland said. “The negative example he cites is Vietnam. He says, yeah, so, Vietnam beat the Americans, and what did it get them? You know, 30 years later, they’re still living in poverty.”

Makes sense to me...

All the same in about six weeks time I'll be mobilising to site at Dung Quat, Quang Ngai province central Viet Nam. Apart from the construction site there's virtually nothing there. But I'd rather be there than Iraq, or Korea (been there) or Japan (been there). Germany (been there) is okay but depends on which part, Bavaria I liked immensely.

The majority of Vietnamese may be living in poverty but they are on their way up and even if Iraq was the most peaceful country on Earth I don't see it as a great tourist destination.

I think the major is indulging in a bit of wishful thinking but whatever, best of luck to him and his troops.

Here's an interesting story from a Colonel who was in Ramadi:

"“If you talk to these sheiks, they’ll tell you that they’re in no hurry to see the Americans leave al-Anbar,” he said.

“One thing Sheikh Sattar keeps saying is he wants al-Anbar to be like Germany and Japan and South Korea were after their respective wars, with a long-term American presence helping ... put them back together,” MacFarland said. “The negative example he cites is Vietnam. He says, yeah, so, Vietnam beat the Americans, and what did it get them? You know, 30 years later, they’re still living in poverty.”

Makes sense to me...

ive travelled all over vietnam, first time was 94 and the last time 2006.

there are a lot of people living in poverty, but the economy is rising quickly with the vietnamese scrambling to get on the tourist band wagon.

there tourist industry is huge, with tourist getto's in saigon similar to koh san road, but on a smaller scale.

one thing is very noticable, is that the backpackers cant wait to get back to thailand and myself also felt this way at the end of my travels.

got to be better than a trip to iraq, as that place will never have a tourist draw except for the fanatic few interested in there history.

but the shiek has a very valid point about the US repairing the country if they win this war.

if the US leave they will get nothing and be left in poverty till the next millinium.

im sure that this will happen.

they will win but they will lose.

ye gotta think about the US disgusting and bullying policy of embargoing countries that they don't like as in Cuba and until recently VN...the relative poverty has been a result...but stinkin' US foreign policy has never been able to diminish their intended victim's determination and resolve.

Give VN a few more years and it will be a giant in SE Asia and the 45 year embargo on Cuba has never been able to diminish the revolutionary spirit, except fer those disaffected 'gusanos' that inhabit the more seedier areas of Miami, ob course...

What's next TW, proclaiming that NK is a paradise on earth - or would be if only the evil US didn' have any embargos towards it?

You seem to be confused - shopping with the US has never been a requisite to being a great country. And incase you didn't know, a lot of countries DON'T have embargos against Cuba.

Sorry to disturb your romantic fantasy about the dictatorship and its oppressed people.

I ain't got no probs wid N Korea...dey just tryin' to mind their own business but aren't allowed to...'axis of evil', shit ...as far as Cuba goes, if ye don't get widde US program they can certainly make things uncomfortable regardless ob what yer national intentions are...it is to the US dismay that no other countries put travel restrictions on their citizens thus allowing Cuba to obtain foreign exchange thru tourism...the fascist US administration won't even allow US exchange students to go there and observe, a disgrace

liberal democracy/'freedom' is a charade perpetrated by the US and it's associates to further their interests...the right to vote carries a responsibility to make an informed decision...ask most of the US electorate where Cuba or N Korea is located and they wouldn't have a clue...all they know is that they are 'the enemy'...dumb shits...

an' I ain't romanticising when it comes to embargos...I was in Nicaragua in the 80s and saw what that embargo did as well as the US sponsored terrorism with the 'contra' mercenaries...they never have recovered, the US was simply happy to have a government free of sandinista influence...well, now they got another thing comin'...

you ain't disturbin' nobody, pal...

QUE MUERE EL YANQUI IMPERIALISMO!!!

Give VN a few more years and it will be a giant in SE Asia and the 45 year embargo on Cuba has never been able to diminish the revolutionary spirit, except fer those disaffected 'gusanos' that inhabit the more seedier areas of Miami, ob course...

Sorry tutsi, but there's a huge difference between the two examples you use.

Cuba and the Cuban people have suffered economically and many other ways because of 50 years of a Castro communist dictatorship. That is an undeniable fact. Plain pure and simple.

Vietnam is starting to prosper economically because it has adopted Western & modern Asian capitalistic views, DESPITE the communist influenced government, not BECAUSE of it.

Eff Castro. He is a dinosaurial boil on the rectum of modern society. The sooner he, his brother and their tyrannical cronies take a dirt nap, the sooner the Cuban people will have a chance at a free, democratic and economically viable future.

Give VN a few more years and it will be a giant in SE Asia and the 45 year embargo on Cuba has never been able to diminish the revolutionary spirit, except fer those disaffected 'gusanos' that inhabit the more seedier areas of Miami, ob course...

Sorry tutsi, but there's a huge difference between the two examples you use.

Cuba and the Cuban people have suffered economically and many other ways because of 50 years of a Castro communist dictatorship. That is an undeniable fact. Plain pure and simple.

Vietnam is starting to prosper economically because it has adopted Western & modern Asian capitalistic views, DESPITE the communist influenced government, not BECAUSE of it.

Eff Castro. He is a dinosaurial boil on the rectum of modern society. The sooner he, his brother and their tyrannical cronies take a dirt nap, the sooner the Cuban people will have a chance at a free, democratic and economically viable future.

bullshit...Vietnam is and shall remain a communist dictatorship with the economy run by the usual CP cadres...how they choose to run it is another matter...whatever is expeditious with regard to boosting GDP growth is currently in favor but that could change at any time...limited free enterprise and foreign investment is presently allowed as there have been favorable results...this may change with their present membership into the WTO and the associated effects of globalisation...

as you have observed, Cuba is a different case...it is a tiny country with few natural resources and is agricultural and its fortune is dependant on the vagaries of international markets for its goods and is compounded by the cowardly 45 year US embargo...however, with the few resources it has it has the best health care in the hemisphere and the highest literacy rate so they must be doin' sumpin' right.

as for Fidel...anyone that can stand up to the US and it's bullying with the BIG FINGER has my respect and admiration...the fact that the US hasn't invaded is testimony to the fact that he has huge support and that there would be a bloodbath as a result...them little shits at Playa Giron got a taste of that, sent their CIA funded maricon asses back to Miami where they belong...

rhetorically speaking...what do you think that a cuban electorate would do if they were given the right to vote tomorrow and Fidel, Raul and their friends were dead?

shit

however, with the few resources it has it has the best health care in the hemisphere and the highest literacy rate so they must be doin' sumpin' right.

Nonsense. Even Castro himself had to look outside of the country for adequate care. And then he chose to overrule the doctor's diagnosis and recommended course of treatment, to his own detriment. So that is what you get with national healthcare. Inadequate care and national leaders deciding above doctors what is best. Isn't that the ultimate irony socialized medicine? I think it's so ironic as to almost be funny.

... the fact that the US hasn't invaded is testimony to the fact that ....

... there is more political value in using Castro as a shining example of the failure of communist dictatorships.

.. its fortune is dependant on the vagaries of international markets for its goods and is compounded by the cowardly 45 year US embargo

It kills me that FoF (Friends of Fidel) always make the US out to be the enemy, claim Castro is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and then blame the economic policy of the enemy for all the economic failures of the great leader.

rhetorically speaking...what do you think that a cuban electorate would do if they were given the right to vote tomorrow and Fidel, Raul and their friends were dead?

Given that Cubans are now in their third/fourth generations of existing in a dictatorship, I would expect there to be a lot of violence and instability, albeit lessening over time, as people adjust and adapt to their new-found freedoms. No different that anywhere else.

Why are all the Cuban people happy with the government? Because all the people who are unhappy with the government have been exterminated, put into prison, or moved to south Florida.

I've never been to Cuba, but a very close friend of my family is a Cuban exile. I've heard enough stories of Castro and his band of thugs wiping out the educated and academic elite back in the 50's and 60's. He literally had to run for his life. That's just one of many examples of Castro and thug rule.

as you have observed, Cuba is a different case...it is a tiny country with few natural resources and is agricultural and its fortune is dependant on the vagaries of international markets for its goods and is compounded by the cowardly 45 year US embargo...however, with the few resources it has it has the best health care in the hemisphere and the highest literacy rate so they must be doin' sumpin' right.

as for Fidel...anyone that can stand up to the US and it's bullying with the BIG FINGER has my respect and admiration...the fact that the US hasn't invaded is testimony to the fact that he has huge support and that there would be a bloodbath as a result...them little shits at Playa Giron got a taste of that, sent their CIA funded maricon asses back to Miami where they belong...

rhetorically speaking...what do you think that a cuban electorate would do if they were given the right to vote tomorrow and Fidel, Raul and their friends were dead?

And as if there were any doubts in what I said, here it is straight from the "voice of reason and common sense" himself Dr. Walter E. Williams, discussing "World Poverty" and how the great country of Cuba ranks 156th of 157 nations analysed for economic freedom.

http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWill...7/world_poverty

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/...x/countries.cfm

Your boy Fidel is 100% to blame for these facts and the sorry state of affairs in the nation he rules!

Rhetorically speaking ....

If the Cuban people got a chance to determine their own destiny, I'm sure they couldn't do much worse than 156th out of 157. The only way to go is up.

So you don't see North Korea improving that much anytime soon?

One great paragraph from one of those linked articles hits pretty close to home..........

The economic development lesson is clear: Have a system of economic freedom and grow rich. Extensive government control, weak property rights and government corruption almost guarantee poverty. A country's institutional infrastructure is critical to its economic growth and the well-being of its citizens. The most critical are protection of private property, enforcement of contracts and rule of law.

Well said that man.

You guys are smokin! This is an excellent debate between poles. Is there an underground Thai connection?

I dunno Tutsi, Cuba might have high literacy, but if an engineer is working as a used auto mechanic, seems a bit pointless.

I do like the old cars, the music, the cigars, the vibrance of the people, etc, but if it was such a great country, why do so many Cubans want to board wobbly rafts headed for Miami?

The only reason I like Castro is that he showed up for ex-Cdn PM Pierre Trudeau's funeral wearing a suit. He may be a commie dicator, but that was a class act and true show of respect.

I think that so long as a country isn't threatening you, it's up to the people of that country to choose their leaders, democraticly or otherwise. If you wish to protest against human rights issues then by all means impose sanctions, but do it equally. If you impose sanctions on one country with a spotty human rights record but pursue trade with other countries with a bad record, the hypocracy erodes whatever moral high ground you may have had.

I think that so long as a country isn't threatening you, it's up to the people of that country to choose their leaders, democraticly or otherwise. If you wish to protest against human rights issues then by all means impose sanctions, but do it equally. If you impose sanctions on one country with a spotty human rights record but pursue trade with other countries with a bad record, the hypocracy erodes whatever moral high ground you may have had.

I agree, CV. So why does Canada trade with Cuba?

I think that so long as a country isn't threatening you, it's up to the people of that country to choose their leaders, democraticly or otherwise. If you wish to protest against human rights issues then by all means impose sanctions, but do it equally. If you impose sanctions on one country with a spotty human rights record but pursue trade with other countries with a bad record, the hypocracy erodes whatever moral high ground you may have had.

I agree, CV. So why does Canada trade with Cuba?

Simple. How they run their country is their business. If we had to stop trading with them we'd have to stop trading with China among others, and that's not going to happen no matter who is in power.

Besides, sanctions rarely hurt those in power who have the connections to get what they want. The people further down the food chain aren't so lucky.

Another pointless thread/argument with Boon and Spee.

I think that so long as a country isn't threatening you, it's up to the people of that country to choose their leaders, democraticly or otherwise. If you wish to protest against human rights issues then by all means impose sanctions, but do it equally. If you impose sanctions on one country with a spotty human rights record but pursue trade with other countries with a bad record, the hypocracy erodes whatever moral high ground you may have had.

I agree, CV. So why does Canada trade with Cuba?

Simple. How they run their country is their business. If we had to stop trading with them we'd have to stop trading with China among others, and that's not going to happen no matter who is in power.

Besides, sanctions rarely hurt those in power who have the connections to get what they want. The people further down the food chain aren't so lucky.

You are so far off the mark, it's unbelieveable. You talk as if it is countries that trade with each other. That is complete and utter hogwash. It is individuals and businesses that trade with each other. It is when governments get involved with free trade that all the problems arise. Taxes, tariffs, trade agreements, etc., and the like??? Those are government actions that restrict trade and economic development, not business or individual actions which benefit far greater when there is freedom of trade.

Again from Dr. Williams, the voice of reason and common sense:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterE.../nonsense_ideas

I think that so long as a country isn't threatening you, it's up to the people of that country to choose their leaders, democraticly or otherwise. If you wish to protest against human rights issues then by all means impose sanctions, but do it equally. If you impose sanctions on one country with a spotty human rights record but pursue trade with other countries with a bad record, the hypocracy erodes whatever moral high ground you may have had.

I agree, CV. So why does Canada trade with Cuba?

Simple. How they run their country is their business. If we had to stop trading with them we'd have to stop trading with China among others, and that's not going to happen no matter who is in power.

Besides, sanctions rarely hurt those in power who have the connections to get what they want. The people further down the food chain aren't so lucky.

You are so far off the mark, it's unbelieveable. You talk as if it is countries that trade with each other. That is complete and utter hogwash. It is individuals and businesses that trade with each other. It is when governments get involved with free trade that all the problems arise. Taxes, tariffs, trade agreements, etc., and the like??? Those are government actions that restrict trade and economic development, not business or individual actions which benefit far greater when there is freedom of trade.

Again from Dr. Williams, the voice of reason and common sense:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterE.../nonsense_ideas

the terms and conditions of membership in the World Trade Organisation apply in this instance and the associated restrictions on susbsidies, tariffs, etc that intrude upon market forces...an' who da <deleted> is Dr Williams?...sounds like sum delusional libertarian maniac...

spill it, Spee...sounds like yer promoting an absurd libertarian agenda...come clean, as it would be easier then to evaluate the meaning of yer ravings...libertarianism is not necessarily right wing...just a bit eccentric, just like the RCP and the trots who claim to uphold the 'true left'...

Simple. How they run their country is their business.

Hmmm...guess we should have left Miloshivc in charge of 'ethnic cleansing' over in Bosnia acording to your logic, eh?

No, extreme situations call for intervention, like what should have happened in Rwanda and other non oil producing countries. There's no genocide going on in Cuba. There was none going on in Iraq. There was a man who killed 3000 people in New York in Afghanistan, but some idiots decided going after saddam was more important.

Cuba is a Police State pure and simple.

For anyone to hold up Castro's model as something to be admired is...what's that word...naive?

Love the Thai pronounciation: 'Naa wit ta naa'

I don't see anyone admiring it here. It has things it does well, like growing bananas and keeping Packards and Studebakers running, but I certainly wouldn't want to live there.