Maduro rival Guaido claims Venezuela presidency with U.S. backing

[Jingthing]

I don't care what Russia says about this either way. I care about the Venezuelan people and the stability of Latin America. Most leaders in Latin America except a few from the far left do not recognize Maduro as president. That shows regional solidarity in supporting the Venezuelan people. The US and Canada also have a deep interest in Latin American stability and also don't recognize Maduro. It's not always about "trump" on everything. The US government has done the right thing here at least so far. Yes it's a risky situation.

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[bristolboy]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I don't care what Russia says about this either way. I care about the Venezuelan people and the stability of Latin America. Most leaders in Latin America except a few from the far left do not recognize Maduro as president. That shows regional solidarity in supporting the Venezuelan people. The US and Canada also have a deep interest in Latin American stability and also don't recognize Maduro. It's not always about "trump" on everything. The US government has done the right thing here at least so far. Yes it's a risky situation.

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The problem is that the Trump administration has refused to comply with the de facto government's request that its diplomatic personnel leave the country. This is the kind of behavior that looks designed to instigate a possibly violent incident where Venezuelan police or military forcibly evict and deport US diplomats.

[Jingthing]

The problem is that the Trump administration has refused to comply with the de facto government's request that its diplomatic personnel leave the country. This is the kind of behavior that looks designed to instigate a possibly violent incident where Venezuelan police or military forcibly evict and deport US diplomats.

You're wrong. Maduro won't attack US diplomats. It's just macho posturing.

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[JimmyJ]

9 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

The problem is that the Trump administration has refused to comply with the de facto government's request that its diplomatic personnel leave the country. This is the kind of behavior that looks designed to instigate a possibly violent incident where Venezuelan police or military forcibly evict and deport US diplomats.

 

Agree, except not just "looks designed to instigate..." but intentionally there hoping to instigate.

 

They are violating the rights of a sovereign nation, naming someone else as President despite Maduro being democratically elected, and then refusing to leave the country when ordered to do so.

 

This is a coup attempt by the USA.

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by JimmyJ

[JimmyJ]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're wrong. Maduro won't attack US diplomats. It's just macho posturing.

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"macho posturing" is a sovereign nation ordering another country's diplomats out of their country?

 

So if a US President was to order Chinese (or any other country's) diplomats out of the US, that is now called "macho posturing"?

[bristolboy]

10 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

 

Agree, except not just "looks designed to instigate..." but intentionally there hoping to instigate.

 

They are violating the rights of a sovereign nation, naming someone else as President despite Maduro being democratically elected, and then refusing to leave the country when ordered to do so.

 

This is a coup attempt by the USA.

 

I prefer not to do mind reading. It could be intentional but that would mean if such an incident would occur, Trump would have to authorize military action. Which would be in contradiction of his stance on involvement in the affairs of other nations. Still, consistency has never been his strong suit and we can be sure his supporters would turn on a dime to back him no matter what he does.

[geriatrickid]

16 hours ago, stevenl said:

I would say your center is quite to the right.

Gee. Trudeau keeps getting called a commie, and Costa Rica a left wing haven. Despite Columbia's conservative president, it's congress has a decidedly progressive bent as does Chile. It must pain you when you cannot affix a label to something. Politics in  Latin America is never black and white. Maduro is a unifying force for left and right because he is a despot dictator who rigged an election.

 

17 hours ago, DM07 said:

Great, how the USA once again stand up for freedom and democracy...in countries and against governments, they don't agree with!All hail, the world police!

Except that the USA isn't in the lead on this. The initiative is being propelled by the Lima Group. And in  case you missed it, the EU has now voiced its support.

 

14 hours ago, guest879 said:

when America becomes socialist which foreign countries will determine who is the right full president?

This isn't about socialism. It is about a dictator who  rigged an election and suspended civil rights.  

14 minutes ago, JimmyJ said:

Agree, except not just "looks designed to instigate..." but intentionally there hoping to instigate.

They are violating the rights of a sovereign nation, naming someone else as President despite Maduro being democratically elected, and then refusing to leave the country when ordered to do so.

This is a coup attempt by the USA.

 

Make an effort to understand what is going on before you vomit up some bankrupt  1970's era left wing  slogans. The USA isn't trying to mount a coup. This is driven by the Lima Group: 12 nations seeking a peaceful solution to the problems. It is a consensus with the USA not an enthusiastic participant under Trump.

Maduro was NOT democratically elected. You insult everyone when you lie like that. The election  has been exposed as a farce with Maduro's  cadre stuffing ballot boxes and excluding voters. There was no election because most of the country did not participate. Maduro has no mandate. He defied the elected Congress and suspended the Constitution to grant himself more power.  But hey, don't let the truth get in the way of your narrative of deceit.

 

[Jingthing]

"macho posturing" is a sovereign nation ordering another country's diplomats out of their country?
 
So if a US President was to order Chinese (or any other country's) diplomats out of the US, that is now called "macho posturing"?

Maduro isn't recognized. That's the difference. You don't follow orders of leaders you don't recognize. Again Maduro is an authoritarian dictator but he's not crazy enough to harm US diplomats. Think about what that would mean. He would be asking for it if he did that. He won't.

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[Jingthing]

better check back in with your good 'ol USA, your left is now socialist and left left is openly communist.
 

Bull.

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[Briggsy]

I am amazed that has not descended into a full scale civil war yet. One of the requirements for that is that outside state actors, more powerful than the internal partner, need to arm and support, logistically, financially and politically, both sides. This has not happened yet. I am not entirely sure why. An earlier poster suggested the obvious Maduro patron, Russia with the help of Cuba, sees no current advantage in a proxy war in Venezuela with America. Perhaps this is the reason. Another reason could be that Venezuela is considered within the U.S. sphere of influence and thus a much more expensive client to support for Russia.

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Gee. Trudeau keeps getting called a commie, and Costa Rica a left wing haven. Despite Columbia's conservative president, it's congress has a decidedly progressive bent as does Chile. It must pain you when you cannot affix a label to something. Politics in  Latin America is never black and white. Maduro is a unifying force for left and right because he is a despot dictator who rigged an election.

<snip>

 

You stick a label here, I question that label. and your retord is 'It must pain you when you cannot affix a label to something.'

Pathetic, nonsensical response.

[farcanell]

 

on one hand, the US position in Europe, the Middle East etc, is that  America should not be the policeman of the world, yet today, in Venezuela, the American position is that it should be the policeman of the world.... confused much?

 

pompeo says that what’s happening in Venezuela in undemocratic, which is funny, because Venezuela is not a democracy... and ironic, because the US itself, is a “flawed democracy”... hes confused.

 

And... its ok to let turkey and Syria slip further into the sphere of influence of Russia, yet Russia supports Madura.... so assumedly Madura would align with Russia, but that’s not ok.... mmmm

 

trump panders to autocrats like Kimmy J and Putin, but not Madura, who is also an autocrat.... well damn

 

US foreign policy seems a little irrational, and in supporting one side (the one not in control of the military) against the other, it could well push Venezuela into a full blown civil war.... I’m not sure that’s a good way forward... but hey, it is a way forward I suppose, and if this does occur... if more hardship is seen in Venezuela, which results in more refugees fleeing north to Paradise (where they could get a job raking the forest floor), will the US accept any responsibility for the circumstances that US policy has created, and admit Venezuelan refugees?

 

i think not.

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

It's not only the USA! 
Enough with this retro talk about American imperialism.

The vast majority of nations in all of the Americas are on board recognizing the new president of Venezuala and his name is not Maduro. 

The USA is hardly the leader on this one.

More like a follower of a broad coalition. 

However, yes, it is true the USA carries a lot of weight, so I'm not minimizing the importance of the USA being on board with this. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Jingthing

[JimmyJ]

"Former U.N. Expert: The U.S. Is Violating International Law by Attempting a Coup in Venezuela"

 

"Alfred de Zayas, who visited Venezuela as a U.N. representative in 2017, says, “The mainstream media has been complicit in this attempted coup. … This reminds us of the run-up to the Iraq invasion of 2003.”

 

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/1/24/former_un_expert_the_us_is

 

As usual, what does the rule of law matter when the US is exporting "Democracy" and "Freedom".

The fact that Venezuela has the world's largest known store of oil is irrelevant.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by JimmyJ

[Berkshire]

This is a sticky situation for the US.  While I'm no Maduro supporter, I should point out that Russia also had what many considered was a sham election just this past year.  Putin, of course, won.  His main opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, was barred from the race.  Should the US recognize Putin?  Doesn't matter, Trump called to congratulate him. 

 

How about N. Korea?  Assad in Syria?  Etc.  There are corrupt dictators all over the place.  Just saying....

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, Berkshire said:

This is a sticky situation for the US.  While I'm no Maduro supporter, I should point out that Russia also had what many considered was a sham election just this past year.  Putin, of course, won.  His main opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, was barred from the race.  Should the US recognize Putin?  Doesn't matter, Trump called to congratulate him. 

 

How about N. Korea?  Assad in Syria?  Etc.  There are corrupt dictators all over the place.  Just saying....

Every nation's situation is different.

Your Russia example is not really relevant for some very obvious reasons.

Sham election or not (yes, sham), dictator or not (yes, dictator), there is reasonably objective evidence that Putin has significant support of the Russian people and also they are not starving to death in large numbers, they are not fleeing the country in the millions in a short period of time, they don't have a million percent annual inflation, they don't have to work a month for a loaf of bread, they aren't dying in large numbers for lack of basic medications, etc.

So of course there would be no justification for nations not to recognize Putin (although congratulating him was certainly sleazy). 

Maduro's Venezuela, a very different story.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Jingthing

[stevenl]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Every nation's situation is different.

Your Russia example is not really relevant for some very obvious reasons.

Sham election or not (yes, sham), dictator or not (yes, dictator), there is reasonably objective evidence that Putin has significant support of the Russian people and also they are not starving to death in large numbers, they are not fleeing the country in the millions in a short period of time, they don't have a million percent annual inflation, they don't have to work a month for a loaf of bread, they aren't dying in large numbers for lack of basic medications, etc.

So of course there would be no justification for nations not to recognize Putin (although congratulating him was certainly sleazy). 

Maduro's Venezuela, a very different story.

So you're saying US government wants Maduro removed due to humanitarian reasons?

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So you're saying US government wants Maduro removed due to humanitarian reasons?

I'm annoyed that you and others are obsessed with the USA / American imperialism knee jerk leftist narrative about this. I really don't get it. It's so incredibly shallow.  Are you just learning about the mess that is Venezuela especially since Maduro took over? It didn't just happen yesterday, it's been developing for years, getting worse and worse. Did you fail to notice the significant solidarity in Latin America in not recognizing Maduro? The reasons are varied, humanitarian, yes of course but also self interest in Latin America. They can't handle half or more of the population of Venezuela running for their lives just to get a bite to eat into nations all over Latin America. This is a serious international crisis and something has to give, someone has to go, hopefully Maduro. 

 

To add, there is a leftist government in Bolivia. There is new leftist government in Mexico. There is no Latin American solidarity whatsoever to not recognize their governments. Can't you see the differences? It's not because Maduro is a so called leftist, that's so knee jerk, it's what has happened there under his authoritarian rule. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Jingthing

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm annoyed that you and others are obsessed with the USA / American imperialism knee jerk leftist narrative about this. I really don't get it. It's so incredibly shallow.  Are you just learning about the mess that is Venezuela especially since Maduro took over? It didn't just happen yesterday, it's been developing for years, getting worse and worse. Did you fail to notice the significant solidarity in Latin America in not recognizing Maduro? The reasons are varied, humanitarian, yes of course but also self interest in Latin America. They can't handle half or more of the population of Venezuela running for their lives just to get a bite to eat into nations all over Latin America. This is a serious international crisis and something has to give, someone has to go, hopefully Maduro. 

 

To add, there is a leftist government in Bolivia. There is new leftist government in Mexico. There is no Latin American solidarity whatsoever to not recognize their governments. Can't you see the differences? It's not because Maduro is a so called leftist, that's so knee jerk, it's what has happened there under his authoritarian rule. 

Your reasoning I find naive.

 

No, not obsessed, but that is what this thread is about. Don't like it, post elsewhere.

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Your reasoning I find naive.

 

No, not obsessed, but that is what this thread is about. Don't like it, post elsewhere.

Both the left and the right can look at things in simplistic ways. I am seeing international leftists see a horrible dictator in Venezuela that is branded leftist and think he needs to be defended just because they naively think he's on their team. I think that is both stupid and dangerous. I don't care what team he is on and how it is labelled. I don't care that right wing Fox News moronically equates U.S. democrats wanting national health care in the U.S. to mean they want to be like failed state Venezuela as if Venezuela represents "socialism" for all nations in all times. Stupid people buy that crap, you can't fix stupid. Venezuela is a failed state and we know that a significant majority of people there, including the refugees want Maduro to go. That should be good enough for everyone regardless of their ideological team. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.   Stay on topic and the topic is NOT about any particular member.  

 

 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-official-warns-trump-administration-121727719.html

[DM07]

You think Maduro has done a good job? Maybe the USA should just issue apologies, as in "Sorry you got screwed. We feel for you.  See you on a boat soon." 

No, i don't think, he has done a good job! Do you think, the US have done in good job with embargos and boycots, that contributed to the situation on the ground?

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[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, DM07 said:

No, i don't think, he has done a good job! Do you think, the US have done in good job with embargos and boycots, that contributed to the situation on the ground?

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Last time I checked the U.S. is still buying Venezuelan oil.

10 million percent annual inflation. If the people there weren't dissenting they would be dead already. As it turns out masses of them are nearly dead or already fled.