Israeli gunfire kills Gaza teens during border protests

[dexterm]

16 minutes ago, BestB said:

Who told you they were born in

israel?  And who told you soldiers who are 18-20 years old did not come from families who were born in Israel ?

 

you telling me a 14 year old parents were born in Israel? Or he was?

70% of the Palestinians in Gaza (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians) either themselves or their parents or grandparents once lived on the other side of the fence in what is now Israel.

 

Gaza’s Great Return March was organized in significant measure to draw attention to the plight of Palestinian refugees, who make up around 70% of the population of the Gaza Strip.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/16/israel-palestine-us-news-headlines-mysterious-deaths

 

The refugees simply want to go home. The descendants of European colonizers are preventing them...pure racism.

[BestB]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

70% of the Palestinians in Gaza (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians) either themselves or their parents or grandparents once lived on the other side of the fence in what is now Israel.

 

Gaza’s Great Return March was organized in significant measure to draw attention to the plight of Palestinian refugees, who make up around 70% of the population of the Gaza Strip.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/16/israel-palestine-us-news-headlines-mysterious-deaths

 

The refugees simply want to go home. The descendants of European colonizers are preventing them...pure racism.

Well if wiki said so then it must be so

 

i once lived on the 1st street, then new developments were built so now I should be allowed to return and my grandkids as well????

[dexterm]

27 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Because many of the "Palestinians" supported Israeli's enemies during several wars from 1948-1974. The vast majority of Palestinians alive today were in fact not born in Israel. There are Palestinians that live peacefully as citizens of Israel. Protesters throwing "explosives" and rocks is what gives Israel the right to shoot these supposed "protesters". Although for me once you start throwing explosives you become a combatant and if you get shot it goes with the territory. 

If a bunch of European colonizers were trying to ethnically cleanse you, who would you support?

[dexterm]

5 minutes ago, BestB said:

Well if wiki said so then it must be so

 

i once lived on the 1st street, then new developments were built so now I should be allowed to return and my grandkids as well????

If the new developments were illegally built on land stolen from your family.....yes, you have the right to return there, or be acceptably compensated to enable you to build where ever you want in your homeland.

[BestB]

22 minutes ago, dexterm said:

If the new developments were illegally built on land stolen from your family.....yes, you have the right to return there, or be acceptably compensated to enable you to build where ever you want in your homeland.

Only it was not illegally stolen and it was not Israel who started 3 wars and  lost 3 wars.

 

this is what happens when you go for a title fight, if you loose the fight you loose the title along with all the perks 

 

posting same nonsense over and over does not make it any less of a nonsense , just as picking particular time frame while disregarding thousands of time frames prior 

[roobaa01]

as usual palestian muslim terror violence draws the retaliation of the patriotic idf in selfdence.

 

wbr

roobaa01

[Ahab]

37 minutes ago, dexterm said:

If a bunch of European colonizers were trying to ethnically cleanse you, who would you support?

If they ethnically cleansed them why do they comprise about 21% of the population of Israel, and have also been members of the Knesset since 1948 (81 members in total). Israeli's must really suck at ethnic cleansing and excluding Arabs from partaking in governing the country. 

[simple1]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I think that, in general, many of the tasks related to maintaining the occupation, or dealing with the Palestinians have a long term negative effect on IDF morale (and by extension Israeli society). That said, the way you put it loaded - highlighting the age, rather than actions.

 

There were injuries, for certain. Most related to IED or shots fired. Recently an IDF officer was shot by a Palestinian sniper, for example. Deaths? One, again from sniper fire.

 

Not quite sure what you're on about regarding "move back" - do you somehow imagine that the Palestinians would not move forward? They come up pretty close as it is. The in-your-face element is something the Palestinians are initiating, not the other way around. Don't see you, and others, wonder about that much.

 

The use of deadly force can be seen as over the top. As to whether there are realistic better means/ways of dealing with the situation, yet to see much by way of informed comments on these topics. Sometimes there are no good answers or solutions. It is noted, once more, that no reservations or objections are aired regarding the presence of a 14yo in such circumstances.

I assumed the killing of a 14 year old would have more negative physiological outcomes than the killing on an adult on the IDF member. I do not consider my comment as 'loaded'. Youths are involved with demonstrations, sometimes violent, worldwide, it ain't unique to Gaza, nor are they regularly shot dead by security forces.

 

By 'move back' I mean out of range from rock throwers. Not being ex military, why do the IDF have to stay within range of rock throwers, surely IDF only need to respond to actual attempted breaches of the border fence.  

[Lucius verus]

Palestinian's have rocks and sticks maybe a few sling shots against heavily armed Israeli soldiers and snipers.

What a sick joke. USA will never condemn Israeli behaviour.

[Lucius verus]

Palestinian's have rocks and sticks maybe a few sling shots against heavily armed Israeli soldiers and snipers.

What a sick joke. USA will never condemn Israeli behaviour.Palestinians should give up because they will never beat Israel and the worlds media don't care about them.

[seajae]

12 minutes ago, Lucius verus said:

Palestinian's have rocks and sticks maybe a few sling shots against heavily armed Israeli soldiers and snipers.

What a sick joke. USA will never condemn Israeli behaviour.

seems you forgot the bombs and rockets, they were throwing explosives devices at them when shot, the rocks were not what started the shooting. Why would any parent let their 14 y/o go and throw rocks/explosives at the soldiers, this really shows how mentally incompetent the parents are, they tell their kids to fight Israel then whinge when their kids are killed, how stupid can you get.  

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, Lucius verus said:

Palestinian's have rocks and sticks maybe a few sling shots against heavily armed Israeli soldiers and snipers.

What a sick joke. USA will never condemn Israeli behaviour.Palestinians should give up because they will never beat Israel and the worlds media don't care about them.

I agree with most of your post, but  Palestinians, who despite all the ethnic cleansing and all the Jewish immigration and colonization, are still the majority indigenous population in Palestine. All they need do is stay put, continue protesting their right of return to their homeland, and allow Israel to shame itself before the international and social media.

 

The struggle will eventually become a one man one vote civil rights issue.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Lucius verus said:

Palestinian's have rocks and sticks maybe a few sling shots against heavily armed Israeli soldiers and snipers.

What a sick joke. USA will never condemn Israeli behaviour.

I think the US will condemn Israeli behavior when they do something that needs to be condemned. Shooting people throwing explosives at you doesn't rise to that level. Palestinians have turned down every opportunity for a true and lasting peace, and I do not see them accepting peace at anytime in my lifetime.

[dexterm]

20 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think the US will condemn Israeli behavior when they do something that needs to be condemned. Shooting people throwing explosives at you doesn't rise to that level. Palestinians have turned down every opportunity for a true and lasting peace, and I do not see them accepting peace at anytime in my lifetime.

The formula for a permanent peace that Palestinians have agreed to umpteen times is quite simple: 
1. Right of return and/or compensation for Palestinian refugees
2. Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem
3. Two states based on 67 lines with full land swaps (Huge compromise: Israel gets to keep lands stolen 47-67) 

Palestinians have never been offered this.

 

That is the only way Israel can have an internationally recognized state with a predominantly Jewish character.

 

The protesters on the border only highlight the injustice that has been done to the indigenous Palestinian population. 

[BestB]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

The formula for a permanent peace that Palestinians have agreed to umpteen times is quite simple: 
1. Right of return and/or compensation for Palestinian refugees
2. Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem
3. Two states based on 67 lines with full land swaps (Huge compromise: Israel gets to keep lands stolen 47-67) 

Palestinians have never been offered this.

 

That is the only way Israel can have an internationally recognized state with a predominantly Jewish character.

 

The protesters on the border only highlight the injustice that has been done to the indigenous Palestinian population. 

And they never will, perhaps time to make new guidelines if they want to move forward, which they seemingly do not .

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, UASCB500BIKER said:

theres 20,000,000--50m Arabs around Israel. One day IT well be Gone and the World well be better off for it....I hope I live to see it !!!

You probably will on the computer games console you got for Christmas.

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, dexterm said:

I agree with most of your post, but  Palestinians, who despite all the ethnic cleansing and all the Jewish immigration and colonization, are still the majority indigenous population in Palestine. All they need do is stay put, continue protesting their right of return to their homeland, and allow Israel to shame itself before the international and social media.

 

The struggle will eventually become a one man one vote civil rights issue.

Which is precisely why the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank will never be citizens of Israel (or Palestine as you stated in your post). Given the Palestinian proclivities to violence and murder of Jewish people (especially unarmed women and children), a one state solution to the conflict is the least likely. A two state solution is in my opinion the most likely scenario. The struggle is a one man one vote civil rights issue, but when Palestinians vote they tend to vote for terrorist groups such as Hamas or the PLO to govern them in Gaza. Not exactly a recipe for "solving" much of anything except continuing the conflict endlessly. 

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, sanemax said:

So, to solve the Middle East problems , Israelis just need to visit their neighbours and say "hello" , have a few beers , get a barbeque going , sit and watch the superbowl  and they will become best mates .

   Worth a try, I suppose

Get a BBQ going, probably no pork ribs on the menu. Oh and the Arabs (mostly) don't drink alcohol. Scratch that idea.

[BestB]

8 hours ago, UASCB500BIKER said:

theres 20,000,000--50m Arabs around Israel. One day IT well be Gone and the World well be better off for it....I hope I live to see it !!!

So what you saying is that it’s all Jewish fault for arabs hating each other and everyone else ?

[Scott]

Please stay on topic.   It's about a a shooting.   It's not about anything and everything in the Middle East.  

 

[geriatrickid]

Oh well, two potential murderers  are off to paradise to meet their virgins.

 

On 2/9/2019 at 3:29 AM, car720 said:

and rubber bullets just won't work?

Rubber bullets are not accurate at distance. In this case, the attackers were  launching deadly explosives. The deceased did have the option of not throwing explosives. They wanted to be martyrs and their wish was granted. Win win for everyone.

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, Galactus said:

dont work bc they dont use rubber bullets. 

and for a reason; to exterminate Palestinians intentionally and age or sex is never important.

 

LOL. The arabs have a head start with their high incidence of smoking related respiratory and heart disease. The high incidence of morbid obesity with the complications of diabetes, kidney disease and heart disease doesn't help.  Not to worry though. With one of the highest fertility rates in the world and a dictatorship which discourages birth control and family planning,  replacement terrorists are produced faster than they can blow themselves up. 

Mind you, with the rampant obesity and heavy use of cigarettes, I expect that the chronic attacks on the border may work itself out as a bunch of tubbies waddling towards the border, gasping for air, is not conducive to an effective attack. These folks are so fat now, they have to rely on kids to build and operate many of the  smuggling  and attack tunnels as the adults  are to fat to fit in them now.

 

[simple1]

On 2/11/2019 at 2:44 PM, geriatrickid said:

Oh well, two potential murderers  are off to paradise to meet their virgins.

 

Rubber bullets are not accurate at distance. In this case, the attackers were  launching deadly explosives. The deceased did have the option of not throwing explosives. They wanted to be martyrs and their wish was granted. Win win for everyone.

From an Israeli report of the killings...

 

“They are hurling rocks at troops and towards the security fence, as well as a number of explosive devices that did not cross the fence,” a spokesman said.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-say-14-year-old-shot-and-killed-in-gaza-border-protest/

 

One youth was shot in the chest, the other in the neck, so one can conclude "shoot to kill" policy of youths who were not an immediate threat to IDF members.

[Morch]

On 2/10/2019 at 9:57 AM, car720 said:

if you expect to hear my voice again and again then you are correct.  I am but one voice of conscience but I intend to use it wherever I encounter injustice.  It is my duty.  What prompts any person to fight against an invader on their own soil.  Any military man knows that a people will always fight their most aggresively when they are oppressed on their own soil.  Ask the Japanese.

 

The "voice of conscience", no less. Not that vocal when closer to home (China, Thailand) issues are up, and even recall you commenting on advising the Mrs. about taking care commenting on such issues on social media. Guess, then, the self-pat-on-the-back thing is more a matter of convenience and prejudice, rather than "duty".

 

Being a person of such high morals - how do your feel about a regime which not only does little to prevent minors from participating in such protests, but actively promoting such?

[Morch]

On 2/10/2019 at 10:00 AM, dexterm said:

OP. "Palestinians say the weekly protests are led by civil society groups demanding an easing of the blockade and recognition of their right to return to homes in Israel."

 

Palestinians have a right to demonstrate for their right of return to Israel from which they have been ethnically cleansed by mainly European colonizers, and not allowed to return to their land and homes. That's a war crime. As is using live ammunition to prevent that return.

 

The reason they are not allowed to return is pure racism.

 

The demonstrators are far braver to stand up for their rights than the heavily armed IDF snipers entrenched behind 2 rows of steel fencing and ditch.

 

I would doubt that the Palestinians have a carte-blanche for violence such as you issue. Same goes for the faux expectation that said violence will not be answered in kind.

 

Same goes for your routine pronouncement on matters of international law. The Palestinians do not actually have a carte-blanche, unconditional "right of return". And using live ammunition is not necessarily a "war crime", especially given the character of said protests.

 

 

 

[Morch]

On 2/10/2019 at 2:31 PM, dexterm said:

The formula for a permanent peace that Palestinians have agreed to umpteen times is quite simple: 
1. Right of return and/or compensation for Palestinian refugees
2. Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem
3. Two states based on 67 lines with full land swaps (Huge compromise: Israel gets to keep lands stolen 47-67) 

Palestinians have never been offered this.

 

That is the only way Israel can have an internationally recognized state with a predominantly Jewish character.

 

The protesters on the border only highlight the injustice that has been done to the indigenous Palestinian population. 

 

That would be your standard issue one-sided, misleading presentation. There were, in fact, negotiations and talks which pretty much amount to the above. Whether or not they stood a realistic chance of coming through is another matter. But that aside - there wasn't a general acceptance of such terms by the Palestinians, nor are the Palestinians in the habit of initiating such offers themselves. The Palestinians aren't more ready-and-willing than the Israelis, regardless of your efforts to paint a different picture.

 

And whether you like it or not, Israel is an internationally recognized state. Considering you routinely object to the country having a "predominantly Jewish character", regardless of anything makes this bit bizarre.

 

 

 

 

 

There was, at no time, a general acceptance of this "formula" by the Palestinians, or a general rejection of it by Israelis.

 

 

[Morch]

On 2/11/2019 at 2:27 PM, car720 said:

If killing children is a win.

I would never put a child in my sights and I have to wonder what type of man would.  Not my type and that's for sure.

 

It's a propaganda win for Hamas, for sure. Which is sort of the point of having youngsters in the front lines.

What you claim you'd do or wouldn't do in a situation you've probably never faced, and unlikely to face is mere moral grandstanding.

 

Also, I doubt there was anything clear said about "in sights" in any of the related reports.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It's a propaganda win for Hamas, for sure. Which is sort of the point of having youngsters in the front lines.

What you claim you'd do or wouldn't do in a situation you've probably never faced, and unlikely to face is mere moral grandstanding.

 

Also, I doubt there was anything clear said about "in sights" in any of the related reports.

 

 

I wouldn’t dwell on ‘related reports, Morch.

 

None meet the standard of an open and transparent public inquiry.

 

Another day, more killings all hidden under a cloak of reports given by the people doing the killing.

 

 

 

[Scott]

Posts and replies removed.  

[dexterm]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

That would be your standard issue one-sided, misleading presentation. There were, in fact, negotiations and talks which pretty much amount to the above. Whether or not they stood a realistic chance of coming through is another matter. But that aside - there wasn't a general acceptance of such terms by the Palestinians, nor are the Palestinians in the habit of initiating such offers themselves. The Palestinians aren't more ready-and-willing than the Israelis, regardless of your efforts to paint a different picture.

 

And whether you like it or not, Israel is an internationally recognized state. Considering you routinely object to the country having a "predominantly Jewish character", regardless of anything makes this bit bizarre.

 

 

 

 

 

There was, at no time, a general acceptance of this "formula" by the Palestinians, or a general rejection of it by Israelis.

 

 

"I doubt that."

"pretty much amount to the above"

"there wasn't a general acceptance"

 

The usual obfuscatory graywash language...just throw a few shades of gray on something which is clearly black and white.

 

According to the Geneva Convention people who have been ethnically cleansed have a legal right to return to their homes and a right to resist the racists who are preventing them.