New Visa Extension rules

[Olmate]

17 minutes ago, tingtongtourist said:

 

 

but those agents are greedy cockroaches i know for sure, so who is really to know who gets what slice of the pie.

 

20/80 is pretty close, you guess who gets 80!

[sniggie]

14 hours ago, skatewash said:

My take on that is that they didn't like doing it and used the excuse of Thais not "being happy" about the level of verification to wash their hands of an unpleasant task that they felt was beneath them.  They choose to stop producing the letters, Thai Immigration has never said they would stop accepting them and to date, they haven't ever done that, that is, they continue to accept that from all embassies. 

That you believe otherwise is your prerogative but it's based on as much hard evidence as mine is, which is to say precious little.  We do however have the vice consul of the BE on the Pattaya radio program saying it was triggered by an FCO audit of things the embassy was doing that it didn't have to with a view toward obtaining cost savings and to stop doing things that were unnecessary, and her belief that there was a method (lump sum of money in the bank) which was a viable alternative.

Spot on, I believe. Back in the UK austerity still stalks the land. It doesn't matter if it's a disabled person having their benefits cut or a citizen living abroad having a vital service discontinued, it's all the same to the bean counters. 

[john ianson]

15 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

And why did those 4 stop the service?

And why do the other 80 continue the service?

What happens when Thai immigration wakes up to the fact that some of those 80 embassies issuing income letters are NOT  verifying income at all !

[Tanoshi]

27 minutes ago, john ianson said:

What happens when Thai immigration wakes up to the fact that some of those 80 embassies issuing income letters are NOT  verifying income at all !

They are obviously now aware that their request to verify incomes is a condition that for legal reasons cannot be achieved, hence the amended order now only requesting that Embassy income letters be certified.

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Yes, because the goal had been accomplished, as sufficient numbers of expats who could not "transfer" the minimums from their incomes, and on a monthly basis, would now be forced to immigration's agent-partners.

Jack, with respect, your conspiracy theories regarding Immigration and agents do get tiresome when included in every post you make. You do realise that for 90% of the Immigration offices being serviced by an agent is non existent.

 

Furthermore you post with the experience of an old hand, when in fact your experience is based purely on one bad experience at Jomtien. You have a Non Imm O ME Visa, do not visit an Immigration office and have no need for the services of an agent. That leads me to conclude, you either believe everything you read, or are told.

 

With the introduction of the amended orders now accepting Thai bank statements as proof of income, have you considered making a fresh application for an extension based on marriage at Jomtien.

I wonder how others manage to achieve what you cannot at Jomtien.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Tanoshi

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

I wonder how others manage to achieve what you cannot at Jomtien.

By using an agent or extreme resilience!

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Jack, with respect, your conspiracy theories regarding Immigration and agents do get tiresome when included in every post you make.

Because people keep pretending is has something to do with "Oh, some people were baaaad, so they are doing this.  No, it's not.  Immigration want the "bad" people who pay bribes - not honest ones.

 

Quote

You do realise that for 90% of the Immigration offices being serviced by an agent is non existent.

And where do 90% of expats live in Thailand?  In those jurisdictions - though the rules made to enhance agent-usage affect many all over the place.

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Furthermore you post with the experience of an old hand, when in fact your experience is based purely on one bad experience at Jomtien.

And another office out in the boones, where a different method is used to deny legit extensions, and having read hundreds of posts reporting the same types of behavior all over - from Nong Khai across to to Chiang Mai, to way down south. 

 

Now, at Chang Wattana Bangkok, to force more "married to a Thai" folks to agents, they are extending the "money in the bank" time from 2 months to 3 or 4, by not applying the extension to your passport unless you can show the money untouched in your bank-book after the "consideration" period. 

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

You have a Non Imm O ME Visa, do not visit an Immigration office and have no need for the services of an agent. That leads me to conclude, you either believe everything you read, or are told.

I have that Visa because 2 different offices used two different methods to deny a legit extension based on marriage, and I do not want to risk using an agent.  But, I did recently check what was on-offer, and verified the agent-system works exactly as people reported here.

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

With the introduction of the amended orders now accepting Thai bank statements as proof of income, have you considered making a fresh application for an extension based on marriage at Jomtien.

I had no problem with financials at Jomtien - they denied based on impossible-to-obtain landlord-docs (unless you use an agent).  Where I live now (boonies), my provable income well above 40K+ Baht/mo is not acceptable, because it is not "from a state pension." 

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

I wonder how others manage to achieve what you cannot at Jomtien.

Many have reported failure.  Others do get the extension, after 2, 3, or 4 visits - their wife interrogated and treated like a traitor by the (colorful-adjective) corrupt IOs, each visit.  My wife found they get more rude each time you successfully meet their last set of moving goal-posts, so I suppose it is a matter of how much abuse you are willing to subject your wife to, to avoid paying their agent-buddies or going out for a Visa. 

 

If you own your own condo, or your landlord will jump through enough hoops (including possibly going to an amphoe for "new" papers), then it is possible.

Edited February 26, 2019 by JackThompson

[xylophone]

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Where I live now (boonies), my provable income well above 40K+ Baht/mo is not acceptable, because it is not "from a state pension." 

I don't think that's the case now Jack, as income is provable by showing bank books and bank statements and it doesn't matter if it's from a pension or overseas savings, it all counts as long as it totals a minimum of 65K per month.

[JackThompson]

11 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I don't think that's the case now Jack, as income is provable by showing bank books and bank statements and it doesn't matter if it's from a pension or overseas savings, it all counts as long as it totals a minimum of 65K per month.

It's the "Secondary Documents" request that are used to show the source.  I had a valid embassy-letter (USA - no indication of source) plus bank-books showing the income in both cases - Jomtien (did not question the income) and boonies (need to show is a "state pension").

 

Note that these are separate incidents from the Non-O Stamp office in Jomtien, who claimed (at that time) that no form of income was acceptable for the stamp - even with an embassy letter with MFA-Certification (the MFA-cert being their previous method of avoidance).  I received a fake-document of "requirements" they were using which matches that experienced by a later report.

 

Those 1st hand experiences, combined with all the other posts of similar tricks at offices all over, plus the fact that agents can make all these problems vanish, should erase all doubt as to what the system is designed to achieve.

 

Next year, with a year of mo-deposits (already started in Dec), I will try again at my local-office (boonies), and report on the outcome.

Edited February 26, 2019 by JackThompson

[Tanoshi]

Again Jack, more he said, she said and I've read.

It's easy to blame Immigration, when in fact the applicant was refused for not supplying the correct documents or financials, but there never going to admit it was their fault are they Jack.

 

47 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Where I live now (boonies), my provable income well above 40K+ Baht/mo is not acceptable, because it is not "from a state pension." 

Which office is that Jack.

The only thing TI are interested in now is it being transferred from overseas.

The order only relates to proof of income, not 'state pension'.

You have challenged them on that, yes?

 

A Thai bank statement doesn't define 'state pension', 'company pension', income from renting, interest from investments etc, only the source as being a foreign transfer.

[Tanoshi]

38 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Next year, with a year of mo-deposits (already started in Dec), I will try again at my local-office (boonies), and report on the outcome.

Which boonies office?

[jmd8800]

5 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

I also dislike such 'nanny' type systems / economics - but no one is asking for a handout from the Thai govt - just to be left alone to care for our families here. 

 

Our presence actively-reduces  pressure from the poor to introduce nanny-state policies by funding jobs into existence, and directly supporting families - both being solutions which do not require any state-welfare taxation/spending.

Please cite some reputable sources of just how much the expat community actually contributes to the economy of Thailand.

[jacko45k]

3 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

Please cite some reputable sources of just how much the expat community actually contributes to the economy of Thailand.

There's me!

[jmd8800]

1 minute ago, jacko45k said:

There's me!

+1

[marcusarelus]

20 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Which boonies office?

I agree that all the posts to be relevant should contain the name of the office under discussion as without that all discussions become nothing more than vague rumors. 

[Tanoshi]

11 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

There's me!

He said reputable Jack.  

[jmd8800]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

I agree that all the posts to be relevant should contain the name of the office under discussion as without that all discussions become nothing more than vague rumors. 

I agree with this. I look for a lot than just the office location to determine credibility or not. There are plenty of vague rumors on TVF.

 

Sadly... some people post complete horse**** time and time again. Unfortunately, some people looking for actual information give up after reading the first 10 of 350+ pages of crap.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Again Jack, more he said, she said and I've read.

It's easy to blame Immigration, when in fact the applicant was refused for not supplying the correct documents or financials, but there never going to admit it was their fault are they Jack.

That seems reasonable, until you have supplied all and more, multiple times, and seen it first hand.  Add to this, others have reported shenanigans used to deny them their extensions which did not involve any published-requirement.  I am far from alone in my experiences with immigration.

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Which office is that Jack.

Boonies Issan - not saying more.  The area is too remote (not many farangs) for me to have anonymity. 

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

The only thing TI are interested in now is it being transferred from overseas.

The order only relates to proof of income, not 'state pension'.

You have challenged them on that, yes?

The new order does use the word "pension" in the English translation, which leaves them an opening to use that angle.  They were very clear about it - we clarified it with them to be sure, thanked them, and left.  In this case, because of the word "pension" in the published order, they have a better case to deny the extension than in my previous circumstance with the unpublished landlord-doc runaround.

 

I am not putting my wife through another meat-grinder session.  It's like challenging a mugger by quoting the law - pointless - just p's them off.  Even if the front-line IO is a "good person" - they still must follow orders from the higher-ups (who clearly aren't). 

 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

A Thai bank statement doesn't define 'state pension', 'company pension', income from renting, interest from investments etc, only the source as being a foreign transfer.

I understand what you are saying.  Next year, I will see how the tea-leaves have fallen in the meantime.  I am still making my mo-xfers.  There is no way, now, to predict what may happen in that stretch of time, and maybe they will have changed their tune.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, jmd8800 said:

Please cite some reputable sources of just how much the expat community actually contributes to the economy of Thailand.

One does not need a govt or university study to know that each of us spends foreign-currency into our local economies.  Every expat not here working a Thai job spends the equivalent of multiple Thai salaries into their local economy from foreign-sourced funds.  Those that work jobs here merely "recycle" Thai money, with a fraction being "wealth creation" by business activity.  Buy contrast, we literally "create" Thai wealth with our spending. 

 

Each one of us that leaves deprives the Thai economy of that foreign-sourced wealth, which removes the ability to pay Thai's salaries from that money.  I have watched businesses get boarded-up as immigration has "cracked down" in various forms over the years, and personally known those who worked for businesses which shut down due to their customers leaving - as a direct result of immigration's policies.

[Tanoshi]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Boonies Issan - not saying more.  The area is too remote (not many farangs) for me to have anonymity. 

Division 4, HQ Khon Kaen?

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Division 4, HQ Khon Kaen?

I have no idea what level the "interpretation" comes from - local, district, etc.  Are you suggesting I can travel / apply at a district-office vs the local-office for my jurisdiction?  If so, I may give that a go next year if the policy locally has not changed. 

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I have no idea what level the "interpretation" comes from - local, district, etc.  Are you suggesting I can travel / apply at a district-office vs the local-office for my jurisdiction?  If so, I may give that a go next year if the policy locally has not changed. 

Immigration Division 4 is over all offices in the North East.

You cannot apply for the extension at the Division 4 headquarters in Khon Kaen. But that is where your extension would be approved after it is accepted at your local office.

Since you are on a multiple entry non-o you could try applying for the extension during the last 30 days of any of the 90 entries from your visa.

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I have no idea what level the "interpretation" comes from - local, district, etc.  Are you suggesting I can travel / apply at a district-office vs the local-office for my jurisdiction?  If so, I may give that a go next year if the policy locally has not changed. 

No, I'm suggesting you contact Khon Kaen if your office is in their catchment area.

You can also contact 1178 or the Immigration hotline on 1155.

Alternatively;

 

Quote

According to recent news sources, Police Lieutenant General Surachate Hakpal has asked people who have been wronged to contact him as follows:

on his mobile phone +66 81 644 0430

on the hotline 1155

on his facebook page https://m.facebook.com/SurachateHakparn

 

 

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Immigration Division 4 is over all offices in the North East.

You cannot apply for the extension at the Division 4 headquarters in Khon Kaen. But that is where your extension would be approved after it is accepted at you local office.

Since you are on a multiple entry non-o you could try applying for the extension during the last 30 days of any of the 90 entries from your visa.

That's the plan, though will let these new rules settle in, first. 

 

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

No, I'm suggesting you contact Khon Kaen if your office is in their catchment area.

You can also contact 1178 or the Immigration hotline on 1155.

Alternatively;

Stirring the pot could just make matters worse - I am not confident that there is some "good guy" in the hierarchy, given the way things are moving.  But, if denied next year, I will ask the wife to call and verify with the district-office.

 

I think my best shot is when I do the application next year, they just fail to mention the "pension" bit, again.  If that fails, I think I have low odds anything is overturned by a higher-power.  It does actually say "pension" in the English translation of the new order (on incomes related to family-based extensions) - so unless that is changed/clarified, they have an easy-out to avoid processing the extension.

[Sheryl]

Bit melodramatic. How have rules changed. There are new requirements such as how long funds remain in bank if using 800k in bank etc... Your suggesting families torn apart etc, how. 
If income method then the income level hasn't changed. Don't understand the fuss.

Those new rules -- which are indeed problematic for many people since they effectively increased the amount of money required -- applies only to retirement extensions, not to extensions on grounds of marriage.

The only change for marriage extensions is for those using the income method whose Embassies no longer issue Income letters. No change in required amount but in absence of an Embassy Letter income must be proven by deposits into a Thai bank (or pay stubs if employed).


Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

Those new rules -- which are indeed problematic for many people since they effectively increased the amount of money required -- applies only to retirement extensions, not to extensions on grounds of marriage.

The only change for marriage extensions is for those using the income method whose Embassies no longer issue Income letters. No change in required amount but in absence of an Embassy Letter income must be proven by deposits into a Thai bank (or pay stubs if employed).


Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Which implies that those previously doing extension (marriage) based on income and now find it impossible, were in reality telling porkies.

[BertM]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

Which implies that those previously doing extension (marriage) based on income and now find it impossible, were in reality telling porkies.

You nailed it and won the prize...

[jmd8800]

58 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

One does not need a govt or university study to know that each of us spends foreign-currency into our local economies.  Every expat not here working a Thai job spends the equivalent of multiple Thai salaries into their local economy from foreign-sourced funds.  Those that work jobs here merely "recycle" Thai money, with a fraction being "wealth creation" by business activity.  Buy contrast, we literally "create" Thai wealth with our spending. 

 

Each one of us that leaves deprives the Thai economy of that foreign-sourced wealth, which removes the ability to pay Thai's salaries from that money.  I have watched businesses get boarded-up as immigration has "cracked down" in various forms over the years, and personally known those who worked for businesses which shut down due to their customers leaving - as a direct result of immigration's policies.

What you've said is your opinion. Your claims are anecdotal.

 

Lots of things are said on TVF. Some of them are simply not true and many are just pure speculation by someone. People come to this forum for good, sound advice. You constantly state your opinion as if was fact. You're attitude of Thai Imm corruption and constantly stating things without any reference point can lead a lot of people astray.

 

I am but dust in the wind to the Thai government. I do not make a big splash in the big pool of Thai GDP. And neither do you.

 

 

[ocddave]

15 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Which implies that those previously doing extension (marriage) based on income and now find it impossible, were in reality telling porkies.

Actually no, I just used it to declare my world wide income, which was many times the necessary amount they wanted me to prove. If they specifically said, "only income brought into Thailand", then we could have had the letter show that, but that wasn't what they asked, nor what was declared on the Income Letter. I rightfully declared my world wide gross income, which was legal, and not a lie. Now I just put the lump sum in a Thai Bank account, and will live with that for now, no biggie. Would I prefer to not have a bank account in Thailand, and just send what I need over here, yes.....but thats not on the table anymore. Why would I prefer this? Well I have obligations on the other side of the planet, keeping up multiple homes in multiple countries isn't cheap, so I would prefer to keep my assets in the US where I actually live, since we don't really live here, we are guest.

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, ocddave said:

Actually no, I just used it to declare my world wide income, which was many times the necessary amount they wanted me to prove. If they specifically said, "only income brought into Thailand", then we could have had the letter show that, but that wasn't what they asked, nor what was declared on the Income Letter. I rightfully declared my world wide gross income, which was legal, and not a lie. Now I just put the lump sum in a Thai Bank account, and will live with that for now, no biggie. Would I prefer to not have a bank account in Thailand, and just send what I need over here, yes.....but thats not on the table anymore. Why would I prefer this? Well I have obligations on the other side of the planet, keeping up multiple homes in multiple countries isn't cheap, so I would prefer to keep my assets in the US where I actually live, since we don't really live here, we are guest.

Thanks for the giggle. With your multitude of assets just stick 800k in Thai bank fixed account and don't touch it. Money in bank method. Easy peasy. Can I borrow the term " world wide income" next time I'm telling a gag in some random bar.