Banking Solution Needed - Moved to Thailand permanently from UK - How to handle banking?

[canerandagio]

Hello all,

 

Surely I am not the first one facing this, so I would like to ask about others' experience.

(Obviously I am doing my own research too, but usually I find leads from TV quite useful, so I am posting here too, in other words 'it is part of my research'...)

 

The context is this: I am from the UK, I now live in Thailand and I am about to lose my UK residency.

 

My questions are basically about banking, and what banking solution I can come up with, either in the UK or elsewhere.

 

Here they are:

- CURRENT ACCOUNT: I have a UK current account which I cannot keep if I am not a resident (I also have a Thai account). 

What have others done? Open an alternative account in the UK? Or open an account elsewhere? (I don't know why I am thinking of Singapore, although I don't have connections there).

I have a Thai account.

 

- CREDIT CARDS

At the moment I have cards based on my UK banks. They will last another year or two, but maybe will be revoked once I lose my residency.

How can I get non-Thai cards (based in hard currency) as a Thai resident? Is this related to my Current Account query?

 

- INVESTMENTS

My savings are all invested in funds with a major investment platform in the UK. They are all foreign-based funds expressed in GBP.

Leaving aside any Brexit or pound-related concerns, my question is...I know that as a non-resident I can no longer add money to this platform (haven't got any anyway), but I am still liable to pay tax in the UK for any capital gain I make on these investments.

Is it worth switching to a foreign (Singapore-based?) platform? Anyone done anything like that?

 

Thanks in advance,

straydog

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by canerandagio

[Crossy]

Don't over-think the issue, many of us just do the following.

 

CURRENT ACCOUNT:- Maintain a UK address, parents, kids, siblings even friends. Move your accounts there, do all your business online, I've not been in a UK bank for probably 25 years.

 

Ditto for CREDIT CARDS.

 

INVESTMENTS (I would look at moving to an offshore based platform, no direct experience there).

 

In 20 odd years of being a UK citizen living outside the UK (and non-resident for tax purposes) I have only ever had one problem. Barclaycard decided that since I wasn't spending money in the UK I wasn't entitled to their card and pulled the plug. I paid off the small balance and cut up the card, their loss.

 

I still have a UK current account (Nationwide) and credit cards (Nationwide and MBNA). I also maintain a Lloyds International account in the IoM (Sterling, Euro, USD) as I get funds in several currencies, don't want to lose on exchange rates. Both use my UK address although I'm changing Lloyds to be the Thai address.

 

The banks won't magically know you're out of the country unless you tell them (Barclaycard are psychic although it took them 10 years of me not spending a cent in the UK before they cottoned on). If you're worried about being shopped by your internet banking, get a VPN with servers in the UK and bank via that.

 

In other words, don't burn your bridges, do nothing until you have to.

 

EDIT I will say that I am (very) gradually moving all my banking to be either in Thailand or IoM. I have unsecured Thai credit cards (I still work) and, at least currently, most of my money is earned here in Baht so unlike most I ship out USD and GBP. UK cards carry small balances and the Nationwide account exists mainly to pay them.

 

[BritManToo]

33 minutes ago, canerandagio said:

he context is this: I am from the UK, I now live in Thailand and I am about to lose my UK residency.

Don't tell them.

And you probably won't be living in Thailand permanently, I'm guessing your VISA/extension says 1 year at the most.

[canerandagio]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Don't over-think the issue, many of us just do the following.

 

CURRENT ACCOUNT:- Maintain a UK address, parents, kids, siblings even friends. Move your accounts there.

 

Ditto for CREDIT CARDS.

 

INVESTMENTS (I would look at moving to an offshore based platform, no direct experience there).

 

In 20 odd years of being a UK citizen living outside the UK (and non-resident for tax purposes) I have only ever had one problem. Barclaycard decided that since I wasn't spending money in the UK I wasn't entitled to their card and pulled the plug. I paid off the small balance and cut up the card, their loss.

 

I still have a UK current account (Nationwide) and credit cards (Nationwide and MBNA). I also maintain a Lloyds International account in the IoM (Sterling, Euro, USD) as I get funds in several currencies, don't want to lose on exchange rates. Both use my UK address although I'm changing Lloyds to be the Thai address.

 

The banks won't magically know you're out of the country unless you tell them (Barclaycard are psychic although it took them 10 years of me not spending a cent in the UK before they cottoned on). If you're worried about being shopped by your internet banking, get a VPN with servers in the UK and bank via that.

 

In other words, don't burn your bridges, do nothing until you have to.

 

Thanks for your well thought message. You are right, 'do nothing until you have to'... that is what I have done so far in the past couple of years. Now it's time to burn bridges though, as the house is sold and I really don't have anywhere to hide for a couple of reasons: I haven't got much left in the UK in terms of friends or relatives. I don't want to burden friends with banking post, and the investment bank as soon as they heard I have a new address (a friend) blocked all my funds until I provide utility bills on my name. So I have to come out clean and declare non-residency with them. Current account and CC are still OK though and I may keep it that way as you suggest.

 

I will look at the LLoyds international account you mentioned.

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, canerandagio said:

I don't want to burden friends with banking post, and the investment bank as soon as they heard I have a new address (a friend) blocked all my funds until I provide utility bills on my name. So I have to come out clean and declare non-residency with them.

 

I get zero banking related physical post, everything is done by email (paperless statements etc.) or their secure messaging systems. My parents are both well into their 80's and, whilst they're still going strong, I don't want to burden them with anything, so I'm moving my cards and current account to my sister's address. 

 

With friends like that, who needs enemies? I assume the investment chaps will be able to propose a solution that doesn't involve you liquidating all your investments.

 

[Pilotman]

It seem,s a little odd, certainly impractical, to voluntarily give up your UK residency.  All you will do is cause trouble for yourself in all manner of ways, UK bank accounts being one. Crossy has given you the right advice. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Pilotman

[Moonlover]

22 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Don't over-think the issue, many of us just do the following.

 

CURRENT ACCOUNT:- Maintain a UK address, parents, kids, siblings even friends. Move your accounts there.

 

Ditto for CREDIT CARDS and INVESTMENTS (I would look at moving to an offshore based platform, no direct experience there).

 

In 20 odd years of being a UK citizen living outside the UK (and non-resident for tax purposes) I have only ever had one problem. Barclaycard decided that since I wasn't spending money in the UK I wasn't entitled to their card and pulled the plug. I paid off the small balance and cut up the card, their loss.

 

I still have a UK current account (Nationwide) and credit cards (Nationwide and MBNA). I also maintain a Lloyds International account in the IoM (Sterling, Euro, USD) as I get funds in several currencies, don't want to lose on exchange rates. Both use my UK address although I'm changing Lloyds to be the Thai address.

 

The banks won't magically know you're out of the country unless you tell them (Barclaycard are psychic although it took them 10 years of me not spending a cent in the UK before they cottoned on). If you're worried about internet banking, get a VPN with servers in the UK and bank via that.

 

In other words, don't burn your bridges, do nothing until you have to.

 

I want to query you on this @Crossy I have lived in three different countries in the last 30 years and have never maintained a UK address whilst living abroad.

 

Nationwide B/S have always been aware of my whereabouts and have been quite happy to send correspondence, including card replacements, to my local address, wherever I am at the time. Including here in Thailand.

 

I do keep both my current and credit accounts active so that I don't suffer the fate that you have with yours.

 

So, back to @canerandagio the O/P, Crossy is right, don't over think it. Institutes in the UK are not going to suddenly 'cut you off' when you depart Britain's shores. Apart from the NHS of course!

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Moonlover

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, canerandagio said:

Now it's time to burn bridges though, as the house is sold and I really don't have anywhere to hide for a couple of reasons:

I never changed my UK address with my banks.

They send out debit cards every year, which are returned marked, "Doesn't live here".

I can live without debit cards, online banking is good enough, the banks still seem happy enough to accept my pension every month, and hold my savings.

I occasionally get a message, 'we are having problems delivering your XXXX' which I ignore.

[canerandagio]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I get zero banking related physical post, everything is done by email (paperless statements etc.) or their secure messaging systems.

 

With friends like that, who needs enemies? I assume the investment chaps will be able to propose a solution that doesn't involve you liquidating all your investments.

 

Yes, you are right on the first point. As long as I don't get in trouble with HMRC for keeping an account (they will surely be told I am abroad).

The investment chaps (Hargraves Landsdown) I will contact tomorrow again. They already told me I can shift money between funds, they also said I can't invest in ISAs, and they said I can keep the account. Now I have to figure out what I need to do to get the money out when I need them ????

Obviously if I can avoid CGT by shifting the lot to Singapore or elsewhere then I will look into it... but for the time being I can't even move out 5000 GBP ???? Will call them tomorrow and declare I left.

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I want to query you on this @Crossy I have lived in three different countries in the last 30 years and have never maintained a UK address whilst living abroad.

 

Yeah, there have been reports both ways about NW, some like you have had no issues, others have been fine until new cards were needed, "pick your card up at a branch of your choosing". I have an address I can use so, until I can't any longer I'll keep them in the relative dark. 

[canerandagio]

5 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

It seem,s a little odd, certainly impractical, to voluntarily give up your UK residency.  All you will do is cause trouble for yourself in all many of ways, UK bank accounts being one. Crossy has given you the right advice. 

You are right, and that's what I have done for some time. But I can't hide this from HMRC really, it's risky, and in any case - as said below - the investment bank now simply blocked everything until I prove my residency (switching to a friend's address didn't work, they want to see the gas bill on my name, lol).

[Snow Leopard]

41 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Don't over-think the issue, many of us just do the following.

 

CURRENT ACCOUNT:- Maintain a UK address, parents, kids, siblings even friends. Move your accounts there, do all your business online, I've not been in a UK bank for probably 25 years.

 

Ditto for CREDIT CARDS.

 

INVESTMENTS (I would look at moving to an offshore based platform, no direct experience there).

 

In 20 odd years of being a UK citizen living outside the UK (and non-resident for tax purposes) I have only ever had one problem. Barclaycard decided that since I wasn't spending money in the UK I wasn't entitled to their card and pulled the plug. I paid off the small balance and cut up the card, their loss.

 

I still have a UK current account (Nationwide) and credit cards (Nationwide and MBNA). I also maintain a Lloyds International account in the IoM (Sterling, Euro, USD) as I get funds in several currencies, don't want to lose on exchange rates. Both use my UK address although I'm changing Lloyds to be the Thai address.

 

The banks won't magically know you're out of the country unless you tell them (Barclaycard are psychic although it took them 10 years of me not spending a cent in the UK before they cottoned on). If you're worried about being shopped by your internet banking, get a VPN with servers in the UK and bank via that.

 

In other words, don't burn your bridges, do nothing until you have to.

 

EDIT I will say that I am (very) gradually moving all my banking to be either in Thailand or IoM. I have unsecured Thai credit cards (I still work) and, at least currently, most of my money is earned here in Baht so unlike most I ship out USD and GBP. UK cards carry small balances and the Nationwide account exists mainly to pay them.

 

Although I have different circumstances than Crossy. I live in Thailand but work in Dubai I do pretty much the same.

 

Don't be in a rush to burn your bridges with the UK. On the same note don't be so eager to shift everything under the Thai flag either. 

 

From what you have stated about your investments take a look at HSBC Expat. An HSBC current account as well onshore in the UK if you still can. This enables you to manage all your accounts from one platform. Transfer from there to your account in Thailand as needed. 65K per month or hold the 800K. Your investments then get paid into your HSBC Expat account. 

 

HSBC has plenty of funds inside the Expat (Offshore) platform. These are not for me currently but they might suit you and your needs.

 

Not everyone who has offshore bank accounts is a criminal, terrorist, tax dodger or drug dealer. Contrary to popular belief by the UK media and Labour MP's. 

[seasia]

Hi

 

I agree with both Crossy and Britman on the banking aspect so will just comment on a suggestion re investments.

 

H -L the company you are currently with do have a good reputation within the industry, hopefully something can be sorted out with them.

 

If not take a look at Interactive Brokers, US company but have websites specific to many different countries, Including UK  & HK.

Very low charges, biggest US on line broker. Good reputation.

My brother has used them for many years, opening a US based account, although he is British but an expat in Europe.

 

Take a look, contact then to see if they can be of use to you. 

 

https://www.interactivebrokers.co.uk/en/home.php#

 

 

 

Another one is Saxo bank. Danish but again operating in many different countries, including Singapore.

Good reputation.

 

https://www.home.saxo/

 

 

Both the above do a lot of business with very active traders but also have options for investors.

 

GL

Edited March 3, 2019 by seasia

[Snow Leopard]

3 minutes ago, seasia said:

Hi

 

I agree with both Crossy and Britman on the banking aspect so will just comment on a suggestion re investments.

 

H -L the company you are currently with do have a good reputation within the industry, hopefully something can be sorted out with them.

 

If not take a look at Interactive Brokers, US company but have websites specific to many different countries, Including UK  & HK.

Very low charges, biggest US on line broker. Good reputation.

My brother has used them for many years, opening a US based account, although he is British but an expat in Europe.

 

Take a look, contact then to see if they can be of use to you. 

 

https://www.interactivebrokers.co.uk/en/home.php#

 

 

 

Another one is Saxo bank. Danish but again operating in many different countries, including Singapore.

Good reputation.

 

https://www.home.saxo/

 

 

Both the above do a lot of business with very active traders but also have options for investors.

 

GL

I like Saxo Bank.

 

I stated in a post on this thread minutes ago that I don't use the Offshore investment funds created by HSBC and under the HSBC Expat banner. That's because I use Saxo Bank instead. I have been using them for the past 6 months and I have no issues except for some of their fees. You can pretty much access anything you want anywhere in the world.   

[JAG]

50 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Yeah, there have been reports both ways about NW, some like you have had no issues, others have been fine until new cards were needed, "pick your card up at a branch of your choosing". I have an address I can use so, until I can't any longer I'll keep them in the relative dark. 

They are quite happy to send cards to my Thai address. They don't activate them until I contact them on their secure messaging system ( part of online banking) to declare that I have received them.

Edited March 3, 2019 by JAG

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, JAG said:

They are quite happy to send cards to my Thai address.

I prefer not to hand out any address apart from in the EU or Philippines, just for the DWP you understand.

[Moonlover]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

I want to query you on this @Crossy I have lived in three different countries in the last 30 years and have never maintained a UK address whilst living abroad.

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Yeah, there have been reports both ways about NW, some like you have had no issues, others have been fine until new cards were needed, "pick your card up at a branch of your choosing". I have an address I can use so, until I can't any longer I'll keep them in the relative dark. 

It's possible, and this happened to me once, that if you were to contact their call centre prior to a card expiring and ask 'are you happy to send my new card to XXXX', they might just answer 'sorry, we can't do that because of blah, blah".

 

It happened to me once when I was in Egypt and I got into a bit of a panic about what to do next. But before I could come up with a fix, loh and behold, the card arrived in the post!

 

It seems that the mailing centre has a different attitude than the call centre!

 

Ever since then I've just let them get on with it and I've never had a problem.

[topt]

3 hours ago, canerandagio said:

Yes, you are right on the first point. As long as I don't get in trouble with HMRC for keeping an account (they will surely be told I am abroad).

The investment chaps (Hargraves Landsdown) I will contact tomorrow again. They already told me I can shift money between funds, they also said I can't invest in ISAs, and they said I can keep the account. Now I have to figure out what I need to do to get the money out when I need them ????

Obviously if I can avoid CGT by shifting the lot to Singapore or elsewhere then I will look into it... but for the time being I can't even move out 5000 GBP ???? Will call them tomorrow and declare I left.

HMRC could not care less if you have a UK account or not.

You have to apply to be non resident - if that is what you want?

As non resident for tax purposes my understanding is you are not lable for Capital Gains tax apart from any property capital gains tax - this change came in from April 2016 if I remember correctly. 

 

If you have just sold your property you should check the HMRC help pages and see what you may be liable for and when you may want to declare/request your non-residency.......

[topt]

20 minutes ago, topt said:

this change came in from April 2016 if I remember correctly. 

Sorry it was actually 2015.

 

OP it may now be too late but did you consider Royal Mail redirect? They can redirect abroad as well which could have offered a short/medium term solution to the UK address issue for your UK bank. 

[CharlieH]

Plenty of UK address/mail forward services better and cheaper than Royal mail.

[canerandagio]

2 hours ago, topt said:

HMRC could not care less if you have a UK account or not.

You have to apply to be non resident - if that is what you want?

As non resident for tax purposes my understanding is you are not lable for Capital Gains tax apart from any property capital gains tax - this change came in from April 2016 if I remember correctly. 

 

If you have just sold your property you should check the HMRC help pages and see what you may be liable for and when you may want to declare/request your non-residency.......

Thanks. Actually you pay CGT on the property sale if you haven't resided in it for x years of the past x years. I can't write here what I am doing, but I will not be liable on the property I will be selling.

You also pay CGT on the gains you make on your funds, if they are held in the UK. For example if I buy units of a fund tomorrow and I sell them next week, the gains are liable to CGT in the UK, if my platform is UK based. Hence the idea of moving them elsewhere. So, for the time being I still have to do my self-assessment in the UK (hence my other post about an accountant).

 

So, I think what I will do is the following:

- Declare my non-residency with HMRC.

- Keep current account in the UK and credit cards, for as long as it lasts, using a friend's email address.

- Approach Heargraves Landsdown and tell them I am no longer a resident, so I come clear and they unblock my money.

- Lastly I look into saxo bank, lloyds international or or other offshore solutions (which may also give me a credit card etc.)

 

Thanks to all, it was helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by canerandagio

[topt]

36 minutes ago, canerandagio said:

Actually you pay CGT on the property sale if you haven't resided in it for x years of the past x years.

As I mentioned the law changed in 2015 for people who are non resident for tax - you have it covered anyway so no problem but after seeing your reply below you may want to recheck......

 

38 minutes ago, canerandagio said:

You also pay CGT on the gains you make on your funds, if they are held in the UK. For example if I buy units of a fund tomorrow and I sell them next week, the gains are liable to CGT in the UK, if my platform is UK based.

Not so if you are non resident for tax. Irrespective of where your funds are based -

https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/what-you-pay-it-on

Quote

If you’re abroad

You have to pay tax on gains you make on residential property in the UK even if you’re non-resident for tax purposes. You do not pay Capital Gains Tax on other UK assets, for example shares in UK companies, unless you return to the UK within 5 years of leaving.

 

[canerandagio]

2 hours ago, topt said:

As I mentioned the law changed in 2015 for people who are non resident for tax - you have it covered anyway so no problem but after seeing your reply below you may want to recheck......

 

Not so if you are non resident for tax. Irrespective of where your funds are based -

https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/what-you-pay-it-on

 

Thanks, I will look deeper into this, but I think I definitely need an accountant to get all this sorted out... your last point about no CGT liability is very good news and it totally surprised me. So, let me get this right... if I buy units for 10,000 and sell them 1 or more years later for 100,000, the 90,000 gains that I made will not be liable to CGT if I am not a UK resident?

Hopefully not too good to be true ????

Edited March 3, 2019 by canerandagio

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, canerandagio said:

Thanks, I will look deeper into this, but I think I definitely need an accountant to get all this sorted out... your last point about no CGT liability is very good news and it totally surprised me. So, let me get this right... if I buy units for 10,000 and sell them 1 or more years later for 100,000, the 90,000 gains that I made will not be liable to CGT if I am not a UK resident?

@topt is correct. Non-residents have no liability for UK CGT on shares, nor do they have any liability for UK income tax on dividends or bank interest unless they also have other income that is not exempt (i.e. rental income). As a result I have moved all my offshore investments back onshore, where I also benefit from UK deposit and investment protection law.

 

Hargreaves Lansdowne is a fairly expensive platform which I would not use.

 

I have had a UK credit card for 40+ years, during which time I have never lived in the UK.

[Denim]

Give up residency by telling everyone your business ?

 

 If you do this you will not be able to return and use the NHS and will have to pay.

 

I have 3 bank accounts in the UK with cards from all of them. Not a problem and I have been here since 1979.

 

Every now and then I return to the UK for a visit and make a point of seeing a doctor just to keep my foot in the door.

 

Do all banking online so do not inconvenience the relatives address I use.

 

Too easy.

[canerandagio]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

@topt is correct. Non-residents have no liability for UK CGT on shares, nor do they have any liability for UK income tax on dividends or bank interest unless they also have other income that is not exempt (i.e. rental income). As a result I have moved all my offshore investments back onshore, where I also benefit from UK deposit and investment protection law.

 

Hargreaves Lansdowne is a fairly expensive platform which I would not use.

 

I have had a UK credit card for 40+ years, during which time I have never lived in the UK.

Thanks. Just to be absolutely clear... I do not have shares, and my funds pay very little income in terms of dividends.. what I have is funds such as these ones: https://www.bailliegifford.com/en/uk/individual-investors/prices/#oeic does the exemption applies to these too? (I do not have any other taxable income).

 

Yes, I am aware HL is expensive, it's a conscious decision to accept that for now.

 

 

[KittenKong]

4 minutes ago, canerandagio said:

I do not have shares, and my funds pay very little income in terms of dividends.. what I have is funds such as these ones: https://www.bailliegifford.com/en/uk/individual-investors/prices/#oeic does the exemption applies to these too?

My knowledge of funds is limited as I dont own any but as far as I know funds are included in that exemption as they are basically just shares. ETFs certainly are included, and they are not very different to funds. I expect that HMRC will know the answer if you ask them.

[Orton Rd]

19 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

I get zero banking related physical post, everything is done by email (paperless statements etc.) or their secure messaging systems. My parents are both well into their 80's and, whilst they're still going strong, I don't want to burden them with anything, so I'm moving my cards and current account to my sister's address. 

 

With friends like that, who needs enemies? I assume the investment chaps will be able to propose a solution that doesn't involve you liquidating all your investments.

 

Don't know how you managed the no letters with nationwide. Even paperless they still send a couple of things a years and in going into my branch to try to stop them I was told that cannot be done.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Orton Rd

[theoldgit]

19 hours ago, Crossy said:

With friends like that, who needs enemies? I assume the investment chaps will be able to propose a solution that doesn't involve you liquidating all your investments.

Reading the post you've responded to Crossy, and indeed your response, he said that the bank actually asked for evidence that he lived in his friends house, maybe they checked the Electoral Register.

 

I also bank in the IoM using my Thai address, I recently advised the bank that I had moved home within Thailand, I subsequently received a phone call and a letter asking for proof that my wife and I lived at our new address, it wasn't that easy to supply what they wanted within their timeframe, even now I don't know if they'll be satisfied with what I've sent them.

[Saltire]

Similar to other posters I have been out of the UK for 8 years and still have and operate my Santander accounts and Co-op bank credit cards. I did register as non resident to the tax man (but annoyingly still pay income tax which I do through a UK accountant as you are not permitted to self assess online if you are non resident). I would recommend just keep using your UK accounts alive by using them online as much as possible, I changed my address to my brothers as I rent out my sole property (which when I sell it will not be subject to tax). He doesn't get too much paper mail and just scans and emails to me if he gets anything important. He also has power of attorney in case of legal stuff.

 

Another poster suggested something very useful, which I omitted to do, namely keep your NHS doctor alive if you can. I told mine I was leaving thinking they would just make a note on my file, but the procedure was to send my complete medical history to some holding office, I think in Belfast, and was told if I came back i'd have to re-register and pay for any services. The same applies to the NHS dentist.

 

If I had just left unannounced I think it would have been easier. On one trip home I did have to see a GP and went to my brothers practice. The GP with no relevant medical history in front of him could not really help me, and to be honest, his attitude sucked, and was not too polite, so it was a waste of time really, although he reluctantly agreed to give me a 3 month supply of my regular medications on free prescription.

 

The other things you have to cash in if you register as non resident are all Premium Bond holdings, and playing the National Lottery online,