Expats in Thailand considering moving to Latin America prompted by Thai visa changes

[Dumbastheycome]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Your post is bizarre.

You did this before and now it's become annoying.

It's not about cost of visa applications.

It's about what are the financial requirements for such applications.
For retirement that's 65K baht per month or 800K seasoned now for much of the year. 

It's super easy here to live on much much less than 65K per month especially if you own a condo.

 

Why bizzare? I came in knowing and recognizing the  existing  requirements 16 +years  ago. And  complied. Now  nothing has changed   for me  because of that. 

The  real issue that  people have is because too many came as or became economic  refugees knowingly avoiding in  various  ways any  proper  compliance. That  now alterations in the  method of  compliance have been introduced impacts only those people. I agree  65 k is more than many  need. It  is  not as  fixed as that in  reality with  the  combination alternative  despite  so many presenting it as   65k or  800k only.

It  is pointless  to pooh pooh the fact that if the situation was  reversed  for Thai or other Asians  to  expatriate on a similar basis would  be  laughable in  the majority of destinations unless as "workers" or  refugees in the  first instance.

Thailand  is  coming  of age  in the  global economic arena  and rightfully is declaring it's rights to overt  abuses. Can there be any legitimate objection? At this time it is  difficult  to  see  how any  real discretional appeal generally  can be  applied  given the  volume of those who  obstinately defy.

Objection to that is  piss in the wind of reality if it can be recognised  that that has come about  by political/industrial/economic speculation  and  thus the  devolvement of  socio economic conditions   basically in the western world specifically in the interest of  multi national corporates who care less  for any individual.

So in essence  it has  become "reap what  you sow".

That is  not  to say I have  no sympathy  for  long term expats who are in a difficult  position now.

But I  have to question any expectation that they be excused for abuse/manipulations of conditions of stay quite legitimately and  rightfully  imposed  by a sovereign nation. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, hyku1147 said:

The guys who look down upon mongers are - in many cases - secret homosexuals.

IME, most homosexuals in Thailand are mongers too.

[Small Joke]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

It's not 200K USD for Mexico retirement residency.  It's closer to 95K USD. 25K to do for one year. Of course always check for latest info on visa issues for anywhere. Mexico's has changed a lot. I had written off Mexico before because their pension requirement was too high for me, but then they added the show money in the USA option, and they're back high up on my list. 

You could be right, I do get muddled with my dollars because of the Aussie peso, so yes, USD 95K would be roughly equivalent to ten gazillion Aussie. I grit my teeth when our UK cousins complain about their devaluaion. You guys have it good!

[ChipButty]

I forgot to add, I said goodbye to one this morning, American

Money wasn't the problem he's just tired of the B/S

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Why bizzare? I came in knowing and recognizing the  existing  requirements 16 +years  ago.
...

Save your morality lectures for one of the MANY topics specifically about the changes. THIS topic is much more about the potential impact of the changes -- the reality is that some people are leaving and other people will no longer be coming. Of this group, some nations in Latin America may be an alternative. Particularly (but not exclusively) for the relatively lower wealth and/or income level people that still want to expatriate and also want the chance to get permanent residence based on retirement. Americans for example only on social security rarely get paid anywhere near 65K baht for month yet can qualify for permanent residence in some Latin American nations for well under HALF of that. Of course hopefully, here, home countries, or anywhere people have significant savings as well, but sadly, not everyone does. Even for those people, lower income and little savings, there are some expatriation options (not Thailand). 

 

Please focus on the Latin American part if you're actually interested in the topic here (which you are clearly not). 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I do want to expand/clarify something about the Thai visa changes that is prompting some people (nobody knows how many) to leave, consider leaving, or not come at all. I may be guilty of focusing overly on relatively lower wealth and/or income level people. There are others that can't be described that way that feel put out by the changes. Obviously the people that were using the income method that can no longer get embassy letters. Some may feel doing the monthly transfers into Thailand just doesn't work for them, for many reasons. Then there are the combo method people. People are still unclear on exactly how that will be enforced either with or without embassy letters. Then the full bank method, some people may feel the new expanded seasoning requirements are just something they are not willing to do. Also consider that many people feel forced into the full bank method based on compliance issues and uncertainties with the income and combo methods.

 

Which means in the context of Latin American destinations that not everyone will be limited to the nations with lower level financial requirements. The majority of them that have programs actually are quite low level in that regard, but some are somewhat or significantly higher than low. 

 

For an example, in my case I would be interested in Uruguay I feel both their program and cost of living where I would want to live there are cost prohibitive. But Uruguay would be possible for many, many expats currently in Thailand, or now rejecting Thailand.

 

Obviously it's logical for each person interested in Latin America to focus on the nations that are actually possibilities for them. So in my case, Colombia and others yes and Brazil and even Belize no. 

 

Cheers. 

[stephen tracy]

I recently spent 2 weeks in Mexico City and it was great and very affordable. It's worth a look for anyone thinking of that part of the world. 

[balo]

10 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Endless supply of girls wanting to earn extra cash by providing domestic and personal services for gentlemen. Only limitation is your bank balance.

Sounds like Pattaya. 

[Ulic]

I have spent a lot of time over the past three decades in Chile both skiing and paragliding. Also some time in Argentina and a couple of trips to Brazil. Chile is lovely, safe but not that cheap. Brazil was also very nice but really didn't feel quite safe. Argentina would be my pick if you like wine and beef. Cheap as chips, lovely friendly people. I would never buy a property, as like sailboats property is easy to buy but hard to sell, especially in Argentina. 

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, Ulic said:

I have spent a lot of time over the past three decades in Chile both skiing and paragliding. Also some time in Argentina and a couple of trips to Brazil. Chile is lovely, safe but not that cheap. Brazil was also very nice but really didn't feel quite safe. Argentina would be my pick if you like wine and beef. Cheap as chips, lovely friendly people. I would never buy a property, as like sailboats property is easy to buy but hard to sell, especially in Argentina. 

Argentina's peso has now fallen 52% against the dollar this year.  Retirement visa amount is $62 dollars a month.  Hang on a couple of weeks and it might be $2. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by marcusarelus

[Jingthing]

I recently spent 2 weeks in Mexico City and it was great and very affordable. It's worth a look for anyone thinking of that part of the world. 

Yes it's getting great buzz but too massive for many.

 

Queretaro I think a three hour bus ride away has many smaller big city charms and lower cost of living than DF.

 

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[Jingthing]

Argentina's peso has now fallen 52% against the dollar this year.  Retirement visa amount is $62 dollars a month.  Hang on a couple of weeks and it might be $2. 

That's a joke right?
I haven't checked their rules lately.
If someone wants to post recent credible info please do.
However personally the place impressed me as too unstable. Always from one financial crisis to another. Fun as a tourist. Maybe not so great living there.

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[JackGats]

I don't understand why US expats who are sexually active can still prefer Thailand to the nearby Dominican Republic. If my home base was the US I would retire in the DR.

 

On another note, I had a look at Peru's retirement visa program (visa de rentista). It is a lot of red tape with some catch-22 items like needing a bank account to get paper X which you can't get without already having a bank account. There's also the interpol clearance and the infamous The Hague Apostille. All in all, the Thailand visa is kid's play compared to Peru. The same probably applies to Chile. Only exception is if you have a spouse to bring along. Peru makes this rather easy. Of course once you have you retirre status you don't need to jump through the same hoops to renew it each year like in Thailand. But getting it in the beginning is daunting.

 

I've heard banks in Peru can be a pain in the neck. Same thing with getting money out of the country once it is in (not so difficult in Thailand).

 

As a European with my money in € I am at a disadvantage compared to US guys because in SA I get punished with a double exchange rate (€ to $, then $ to local currency). Other things to consider for Europeans: flights to Europe are expensive.

 

Earthquakes are a horrid way to die.

 

Since Argentina gets mentioned, I don't think foreign pensions are taxfree in that country. Neither are they in Colombia. They're taxfree in DR, Peru, Chile, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Panama, ....? No taxless pension (any more) in Brazil I think.

Edited March 5, 2019 by JackGats

[Jingthing]

Yes there is some major pain with the Peru retirement visa. I takes months. Only can apply in Lima. But my info says it is possible to do. If you succeed it represents legal permanent residence. That might be worth it. Arequipa sounds like a very appealing destination though too high up there and also geographically isolated. Ironically the US embassy in Lima will officialize social security benefits letters to the satisfaction of Peru immigration. Information is needed for Peru on exactly how you get an acceptable police record from Thailand in time apostle and translated. A number of Latin American countries will require similar but how to get it in Thailand may vary. For example perhaps in some cases you can work with Latin American nations Bangkok embassy. These issues can potentially be very difficult or even deal breakers.

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[Bang Bang]

OP: Honey, I've decided. I'm off to Colombia in a month. For good. You might miss me.

    Couple of minutes ...

OP (in a louder voice): Honey, I'm leaving. You're going to miss me.

OP: Honey?

 

TGF, Isaan born and bred, storms into the room.

 

TGF: You leaving tomollow, one month, one year I don care. Now, you go 7 get milk, bread, khai for blekfas. Morning why you wake me say me mek blekfast dahling, I hungly. If you hungly you pai chopping. Ok? Tu yen have nothing. Can go now.

 

OP in a plaintive voice: But honey it's late.

 

TGF: You wanna eat you go, ok. Too much lazy only do ipad not good.

 

OP drags himself out of his easy chair and heads off on his bike. Two hours later ...

 

OP in a slightly slurred voice: Honey, I'm back.

 

TGF: Where you have food?

 

OP: Oh, shit.

 

TGF starting to yell: You not go 7. You go bar drinking song chuomo with your flend. I not have food nothing. What you take care? You bad man, velly bad man. You go another country good I hepy.

 

TGF picks up a broomstick and charges at the OP. OP grabs his ipad, dodges  a blow to his head, races to the bathroom and locks himself in. TGF bangs on the door swearing in Thai.

 

OP manages to block out the sound and resumes responding to the thread on retiring to Latin America which he had started.

 

He starts to type: I understand some members' concerns about safety in South American cities. However, one must not underestimate the potential for danger in Thailand. It would be simplistic ...

 

OP breaks off as he hears the sound of something being driven into the keyhole.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Bang Bang

[SamuiGeezer]

On 3/4/2019 at 3:12 PM, Jingthing said:

Here is my priority list --

 

Visa issues -- as easy and quick a process as possible

Visa financial levels -- obtainable based on my lower level U.S. social security pension (happily multiple choices for that) and/or another method that I could use (such as Mexico which has a "show money" outside of Mexico option

Residency issues -- either permanent residence on initial application or a path to permanent residence in a reasonably number of years

Citizenship -- nice to have that choice but not important to me

Beach? -- I don't need it

Urban, rural, etc. -- Prefer a smaller city, from a large town to a smaller big city

Weather -- Looking for year round mild weather

Altitude -- Hopefully not super high up there

Language -- Would prefer a place that you can "get by" with English at least for a while, but considering Spanish is not that hard, not the highest priority

Cost of living -- As low as possible but not willing to live super locally, still want my first world comforts in housing. To be more specific cost to rent something decent between 250 and 500 USD monthly. 

Transport -- Possible to live in the new place without a car high priority

Buying or renting? -- Open to buying only if it appears to be an especially good deal based on the local market and exchange rate. OK to rent indefinitely. 

Pollution -- A city with lots of traffic congestion / air pollution would be a strong negative
Food -- Interesting food, healthy food, international choices but I could compromise for other positive factors

Crime and safety -- As safe as possible. My gauge is if a place is comparably safe to a typical U.S. big city, meaning many many places in Latin America can meet that test

Health care -- Best if there is a buy in to a national system. Possibilities to get not horribly expensive coverage for older people with preexisting conditions in the local market. And/or a retail cost level that would be acceptable without insurance.

 

<deleted>, why would you move to the other side of the world if you're living in Thailand you clearly like this side no?

[Jingthing]

, why would you move to the other side of the world if you're living in Thailand you clearly like this side no?

Lots of reasons. The visa rule changes are onerous. There is no residence security possible here on retirement status. Thailand has pros and cons and so do many other places. I'm seeking legal permanent residence which I can have in my home country of course but I prefer being an expat. 

Latin America is the best region in the world for people seeking legal permanent residence based on retirement and relatively low financial requirements.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

OP: Honey, I've decided. I'm off to Colombia in a month. For good. You might miss me.
    Couple of minutes ...
OP (in a louder voice): Honey, I'm leaving. You're going to miss me.
OP: Honey?
 
TGF, Isaan born and bred, storms into the room.
 
TGF: You leaving tomollow, one month, one year I don care. Now, you go 7 get milk, bread, khai for blekfas. Morning why you wake me say me mek blekfast dahling, I hungly. If you hungly you pai chopping. Ok? Tu yen have nothing. Can go now.
 
OP in a plaintive voice: But honey it's late.
 
TGF: You wanna eat you go, ok. Too much lazy only do ipad not good.
 
OP drags himself out of his easy chair and heads off on his bike. Two hours later ...
 
OP in a slightly slurred voice: Honey, I'm back.
 
TGF: Where you have food?
 
OP: Oh, shit.
 
TGF starting to yell: You not go 7. You go bar drinking song chuomo with your flend. I not have food nothing. What you take care? You bad man, velly bad man. You go another country good I hepy.
 
TGF picks up a broomstick and charges at the OP. OP grabs his ipad, dodges  a blow to his head, races to the bathroom and locks himself in. TGF bangs on the door swearing in Thai.
 
OP manages to block out the sound and resumes responding to the thread on retiring to Latin America which he had started.
 
He starts to type: I understand some members' concerns about safety in South American cities. However, one must not underestimate the potential for danger in Thailand. It would be simplistic ...
 
OP breaks off as he hears the sound of something being driven into the keyhole.

Dude you are tripping!

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[Jingthing]

I want to expand a bit on my post before about the reasons expats leave Cuenca Ecuador and how almost always the reason is not because they've been murdered.

The largely American and Canadian expats of Cuenca are perhaps the most studied group of such expats anywhere anytime. (Venezuelans there are called refugees not expats.)

Multiple reports are that over half leave within a year!

I gave the reasons why that I've read over the years already. You don't really hear that people are leaving because of crime and violence. 

But why so many that leave?

In my experience and it's hard to know as western expats in Thailand while having much much larger numbers than in Cuenca don't seem to be the subject of academic studies in the same way as Cuenca expats, westerners that move to Thailand with the INTENTION of either long term or lifetime expatriation do not just give up in large percentages the first year!

Maybe I'm wrong about that but I think it's an interesting contrast.

Of course Cuenca is a specific location in a specific Latin American nation. 

It's gotten an absurd amount of puff piece publicity by International Living and others. 

The expectations that are built up especially in more naïve, less travelled new expats are over the top. Not even close to realistic. 

Paraphrasing a vlog I've been watching, any destination that you fantasize living in when you actually live there the fantasy part will be about 5 percent if you're lucky.

He's an ex-Cuenca expat and he describes Cuenca as a lot of hype.

I'm not saying don't consider Cuenca. It actually sounds pretty good. They recently finished a world class streetcar mass transit system for example and word is the restaurant scene has improved markedly in the last few years.

But there might be lessons to be learned. 

 

Cheers.

[Bang Bang]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Dude you are tripping!

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Just having a little fun with your OP if you don't mind.

 

But seriously the naivete of contemplating crime-ridden, machismo-cultured, economically unstable, gringo-hating SA as an alternative to Thailand is comparable to that of the Scandinavian girls jaunting off by themselves in rural Morocco.

 

Oh, sure, you could circle the wagons in an expat enclave, but then what's the point in the first place?

 

The above is an opinion, of course. But to make it real here's a wager: 1000b. for every person on this thread who actually ups stakes here in Thailand and moves to Ecuador/Colombia/Belize et al. I'll keep the offer open as long as your thread survives.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Bang Bang said:

Just having a little fun with your OP if you don't mind.

 

But seriously the naivete of contemplating crime-ridden, machismo-cultured, economically unstable, gringo-hating SA as an alternative to Thailand is comparable to that of the Scandinavian girls jaunting off by themselves in rural Morocco.

 

Oh, sure, you could circle the wagons in an expat enclave, but then what's the point in the first place?

 

The above is an opinion, of course. But to make it real here's a wager: 1000b. for every person on this thread who actually ups stakes here in Thailand and moves to Ecuador/Colombia/Belize et al. I'll keep the offer open as long as your thread survives.

You're really out of touch if you actually believe all of the expat popular destinations in Latin America are as dangerous as all that. Have you even travelled there? I don't promote overselling or underselling the idea of moving to Latin America. But posts like yours promoting total ignorance have no basis in facts.

[Small Joke]

9 hours ago, brokenbone said:

1 no need of woman whatsoever

2 all other things are not equal in the slightest,

most importantly citizenship & national health care

is automatic as i enter caribbean air space

3 yes, in a heartbeat, actually its a plus if im left alone

 

source, i've spent most of my adult life in pattaya

and most of those years i decline any and all advances

from the opposite sex, hiso and loso alike.

So would an interview with you sound something like this? ????

 

Name: Autosexuality.

Age: Exactly as old as I am.

Appearance: Beautiful, fun, charming, attractive, sexy. Like me.

If you don’t mind me saying so, you seem pretty pleased with yourself. Yes, I am, thanks.

It’s like you think you’re all that. I certainly do.

Wow. You’re really quite full of yourself, aren’t you? I wish.

Look, I’m trying to insult you. Will you please just act wounded? No can do. I’m too happy.

Why? Because I’m head over heels in love.

With whom? With me.

Wait. Who’s in love with you? I am.

What? My orientation happens to be autosexual.

What do you mean? Like a sexy robot? No, not like a sexy robot.

Or does it mean you get aroused by cars, like Jeremy Clarkson? It means that I am sexually attracted to myself.

How does that even work? Well, I usually start by lighting a few candles and checking I’ve got fresh batteries. Then …

Stop. If you’re talking about masturbation, everybody does that. I hear. Autosexuality is different from autoeroticism. It’s more about masturbating to the idea of yourself.

I’m afraid the distinction is lost on me. You might, for example, be turned on by your own nudity. In my case I’m also autoromantic – I literally love myself.

What are you talking about? I mean I get butterflies in my stomach when I think about me.

No you don’t. Yes I do. I go on dates with myself and buy myself romantic gifts.

If you love yourself so much, why don’t you marry yourself? I may. The writer Ghia Vitale got engaged to herself in 2017, and plans a self-wedding at some point.

Credit to: The Guardian UK

[Bang Bang]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're really out of touch if you actually believe all of the expat popular destinations in Latin America are as dangerous as all that. Have you even travelled there? I don't promote overselling or underselling the idea of moving to Latin America. But posts like yours promoting total ignorance have no basis in facts.

I agree there are "expat-safe" pockets. But I have traveled enough in Central America to know that there's a "thus far and no further" (not always printed) sign you need to look out for whichever way you go in those places. Beyond and you ask trouble. Au contraire, I can step out of my apartment now in Bkk (1:30am) and walk as far as I like along any street I like with no fear. You tell me a SA city where this trick works.

 

And in clubs/bars/entertainment venues machismo is an issue. The whole vibe is very different from Thailand (or Asia).

 

And with few exceptions they don't particularly like Americans (which I am). They blame us (probably with some justification) for a lot of ills.

 

So, to my mind Thailand --> SA is not a serious topic.

 

Moreover, the number of very sexy Colombian women available in Mixx obviates the need for a 20-hr. flight to satiate one's desire for a woman with palpable and natural buttocks and breasts (you listening, Thai women?).

[Small Joke]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes it's getting great buzz but too massive for many.

 

Queretaro I think a three hour bus ride away has many smaller big city charms and lower cost of living than DF.

 

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Old Queretaro is indeed lovely, and felt safe. I had the worst attack of hay fever there I ever encountered, and my antihistamine barely gave relief.

It sprawls into nearby hills, and overall is messy looking, but up close a delight. The few people I met were relaxed and friendly.

 

Less expensive modern suburban accomodation in Mexico is pretty boxy, I kept thinking about that song where 'they're all made of ticky-tacky and they all look just the same'...

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

 

 

[A1Str8]

Just buy an elite visa.

[Jingthing]

 

Great information. I have allergies so relevant to me. Yes it's also my impression there is a lot of sterile modern middle class housing outside the central areas.

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[Jingthing]

I agree there are "expat-safe" pockets. But I have traveled enough in Central America to know that there's a "thus far and no further" (not always printed) sign you need to look out for whichever way you go in those places. Beyond and you ask trouble. Au contraire, I can step out of my apartment now in Bkk (1:30am) and walk as far as I like along any street I like with no fear. You tell me a SA city where this trick works.
 
And in clubs/bars/entertainment venues machismo is an issue. The whole vibe is very different from Thailand (or Asia).
 
And with few exceptions they don't particularly like Americans (which I am). They blame us (probably with some justification) for a lot of ills.
 
So, to my mind Thailand --> SA is not a serious topic.
 
Moreover, the number of very sexy Colombian women available in Mixx obviates the need for a 20-hr. flight to satiate one's desire for a woman with palpable and natural buttocks and breasts (you listening, Thai women?).

Central America and South America are quite different from each other. Not to mention the different cultures of specific nations. The only two Latin American nations that I've spent over a month in on one place are Argentina and Mexico. Very different from each other.

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[Cryingdick]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're really out of touch if you actually believe all of the expat popular destinations in Latin America are as dangerous as all that. Have you even travelled there? I don't promote overselling or underselling the idea of moving to Latin America. But posts like yours promoting total ignorance have no basis in facts.

 

That's interesting. In the world news threads people are saying that people are claiming asylum and walking all the way to the USA from some of these places. It is said people are literally afraid for their lives.

 

I guess things must not be that rough? Everybody I know who has gone to Central America has said it is pretty rough. My friend was born down there and has land there and you can not walk the streets at night in a small town. 

 

Here is the consular sheet on Columbia.... Level 2

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Colombia.html

 

Honduras level 3 reconsider

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Honduras.html

 

Mexico level 2

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Mexico.html

 

 

Belize Level 2

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Belize.html

 

Guatemala level 2

 

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Guatemala.html

 

Ecuador is normal

 

Peru is normal

 

Thailand level 1 normal

 

Argentina is normal

 

So saying that the danger is just in people's minds seems a little bit optimistic. "Columbia is cool other than express kidnappings by people dressed like police at the airport it's really nice"

 

But whatever anybody that thinks Central and South America are as safe as Thailand can suit themselves.

 

[Small Joke]

12 minutes ago, A1Str8 said:

Just buy an elite visa.

I would if the goons could be trusted.

Also I detest golf. And so a huge chunk of that benefit is just 'whut'?

They've already just moved the goalposts on us, which is why this thread exists.

 

Frankly the requirement for seasoning a cool million in their shitty interest bearing accounts cannot be far off. 

 

The Chinese will drive prices up to nosebleed levels, like they did in Canada Australia and NZ.

 

With any luck they'll financially implode soon, although that could come with even worse unintended consequences.

 

I'm trying to stick it out, because there's so much to love, but the writing may well be on the wall.

 

They also significantly devalued the elite visa, which was a lifetime proposition when launched.

So thanks, Thailand, I'll keep my money.

[Small Joke]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Central America and South America are quite different from each other. Not to mention the different cultures of specific nations. The only two Latin American nations that I've spent over a month in on one place are Argentina and Mexico. Very different from each other.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Mexico is technically North America.

I've been to BA some years ago. Went for a morning walk, like dawn twilight, the park down near the Marina and Rio Plate? was unkempt, and scores of expensive dogs, many large breeds, Malamutes etc,  once pets, running feral. Kinda put me off Argentina. Also a skinny horse pulling a cart along, so heartbreaking. Argentina has been hurting forever.

 

The nightlife, though -if you have a Argentine expat buddy, just woah!

Edited March 5, 2019 by Small Joke
Added thot