Sin Sod talks began, time for prenup talk!!

[Elkski]

Just wanted to remind everybody that they should seriously consider a prenuptial agreement before marrying someone from another country with substantially lower financial means.  It is my conclusion that decades of foolish men have sort of ruined things for us newbies. All the stories of these houses and farms and gold and big sin sod amounts are now easily available and shared on social media . This has created a new breed of educated women. It's not inconceivable that some will use this info to benefit from a foreigners affections. 

 

Sin sod is a foreign and strange concept but a strong tradition in Thailand. It seems so unromantic when she brings up this topic.  What better time than during the

sin sod negotiations  to bring up the topic of a prenuptial.  This will most likely require Google and some education in her part.  Heck I don't know exactly what is in a prenup.  Are there increasing amounts based in duration of marriage?  

 

Insistence on prenuptial agreements created by a Thai and your country lawyer should be a prerequisite for anyone considering marriage when there is a big disparity in assets and or pensions especially with a person from a different country. 

 

Please don't make this a debate on sin sod or not, you can read many of those threads on this forum as well as the internet. From my observations 200000 baht sin sod is not unreasonable I guess it is quite commonly fully or partially returned to the woman or couple.  Maybe a red flag if mom insists on keeping it.  It does seem like a status symbol and measure if sorts of the status, desirability and quality big catch.  Considerable Face is involved here. 

Sin sod varies based on age, children, marital status family status, education, job.  

Anyone with recent experience on the process, timeline , and cost of getting a prenup written up by a Thai and American lawyer please feel free to give input.    

Edited March 12, 2019 by Elkski

[bwpage3]

Getting a Pre-nup written up is easy.

 

Getting it enforced in Thailand, I wouldn't want to bet on that.

[brokenbone]

thinking outside the box here, its not unreasonable

for the buyer to insist on spending some quality time

with both the bride and the maid of honor,

prior to marriage,

so he get some sense of getting his moneys worth from

the sin sod, or save face if you wish,

with the quality time being a function

of the size of the sin sod.

compensation for the maid of honor is then deducted from the sin sod, everyones happy,

everyone saved face

Edited March 12, 2019 by brokenbone

[Skallywag]

14 minutes ago, bwpage3 said:

Getting a Pre-nup written up is easy.

 

Getting it enforced in Thailand, I wouldn't want to bet on that.

Yes,  seems that thai law will definitely favor the thai born spouse above the foreigner in pre-nups  (who would have thought - 555)

Also read that in thailand there is a "morals" clause or a morals law that can nullify the pre-nup. 

Also just read that, "section 1476 govern ........ it is important to realize that real estate in Thailand acquired during the course of the marriage will often be held as a personal property of the Thai spouse and not as a property of husband and wife.  https://www.thaicontracts.com/articles/8-thai-law-isn-t-simple/20-prenuptials-in-thailand-for-foreigners.htmlhttps://www.thaicontracts.com/articles/8-thai-law-isn-t-simple/20-prenuptials-in-thailand-for-foreigners.html

 

[Elkski]

I suppose it matters if the assets are in Thailand or in a person's home country.  And if you plan to reside in Thailand or the USA.  I'm talking about protecting assets  in and residing in USA.  many of you have convinced me that Thailand is not where I want to live at this time. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Elkski

[Gumballl]

Only a fool pays sin sod. Yes, I had to show money at my wedding ceremony, but after the guests left, I got my money back.

 

If you need a prenup, then you perhaps should just marry your right hand (or left hand, if you are a southpaw). If you already have doubts of the success of the marriage, why go through with it?? 

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, Elkski said:

Insistence on prenuptial agreements created by a Thai and your country lawyer should be a prerequisite for anyone considering marriage when there is a big disparity in assets and or pensions especially with a person from a different country. 

Nonsensical western idea for Thailand, if thought I had to do something like a prenup, lease, give money I wouldn't get married.

 

The money I spent was for my life comforts and my wife would obviously enjoy them too,  I didn't want to live in wooded shack or ride a 20 year old 2 stroke moped.

[Thongkorn]

If you need a prenup don’t marry your not ready for it.  

[Elkski]

46 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

If you need a prenup don’t marry your not ready for it.  

How many assets do you have? 

This reply makes sense only if;

a man has zero assets.

Has less or equal  assets to bride,

No assets with a pension or protected income stream.  

It's obviously stupid advice for a man with assets in USA planning to reside in USA.  Children or not.    

[Krataiboy]

We need to break the dowry habit, which is a hangover from olden times when wealthy merchants used to buy virgin brides from impoverished Thai villagers. These days, village girls tend to sacrifice their honour in big city bars and massage parlours to keep mum and dad in relative comfort.   

 

As man of increasingly (thanks to the Brexit debacle) limited means, my policy is to give our offspring a lump sum to launch them into married life - preferably after tying legally tying the knot at the local amphur. Should they wish to divert some of the money into their in-laws' pockets and/or a religious wedding, that's their choice.

 

But sin sod? Sod it!

Edited March 13, 2019 by Krataiboy

[crickets]

Borrowed money in my wifes name from a Thai bank for a house for a 30year loan. Thats my prenup.

[xerostar]

You don't want to contemplate your house burning down but if you have fire insurance you wont lose everything.

[blazes]

The easy answer, as you surely know, is do not get married the sin sod route.  It is already an anachronism.

But if you want some legal protection, best to get married at the amphur, since a monk wedding has no legal standing.

 

Best of all, be absolutely sure that you have researched the dating apps thoroughly enough.  Find yourself a woman with as advanced an education as possible.  But even that is no guarantee of happiness.  If SHE is talking obsessively about sin sod, you can be sure that you are on the wrong track.

 

Sin sod (unless grabbed by mama) is in itself a form of pre-nup (or, better, a divorce settlement ahead of time).   Since most Thai guys are incapable of fidelity, the sin sod is (a very small) guarantee that the missis will not be left totally destitute if he one day decides to leave the nest.

[LNKDES1]

3 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

If you need a prenup don’t marry your not ready for it.  

Wonder how Jeff Bezos feels about that right about now?

[ncc1701d]

Best pre nup is to not get married. 

[4MyEgo]

11 hours ago, Elkski said:

Just wanted to remind everybody that they should seriously consider a prenuptial agreement before marrying someone from another country with substantially lower financial means.

For what it's worth, you have my utmost respect for having the balls to be different, the "black sheep", i.e. not the usual white sheep always singing baa baa and more baa because when things go south and that white sheep starts singing baa baa baa because he lost most, or all of it to his Tiruk because he didn't want to have his assets/funds separate to his Tiruk, or invested far more than the usual 10% in his relationship, i.e. no 90% fall back position for him.

 

The way I see it is a woman is a woman and laws usually protect or favor the woman for many reasons, but I am not going to go into that, but as far as prenuptial agreements are concerned, it all boils down to what country you are from, that said, get professional advice from a family law specialist, i.e. someone who deals in this arena day in/day out, not just your average Joe the lawyer who takes on everything and is not usually up to date when it comes to the changes in this area of the law.

 

In the UK prenuptial agreements are out, so much for that, however in Australia where I am originally from they are still in as they fall under the Family Law Act, although a mate of mine who you can never win an argument with, will tell you that because of a news article some 12 months ago, they are out the window, which is a load of crap, and I would say he is used that as his excuse not to enter into a prenuptial with his Tiruk who will eventually clean him and his assets up if they split up as they have now 3 kids together and are married in Australia.

 

Now anyone who takes their blinkers off and is open and accepts that they have to have protection in a relationship, and is ready to be a man and does their research on prenuptial agreements will know that prenuptial agreements can be challenged, i.e. they are a contract, and all contracts can be challenged, and if a family law judge finds that the prenuptial was done incorrectly, i.e. signed in the husbands lawyers office with the wife not obtaining independent legal advice from another lawyer, or the bride ended up worse off that when she entered the marriage, then he will no doubt award her some of his pie, i.e. if she was to walk away with nothing.

 

The prenuptial agreement must show she received something, something to be able to fall back onto, in my situation, I purchased her a 1,000m2 of land in my wife's village for 120,000 baht 12 years ago, it was peanuts at the time, and took out a life insurance policy to the value of $100,000 AUS which has remained in force till today and will continue to be valid until I croak it.

 

My wife of 12 year agreed to a prenuptial agreement, then we got married in Australia, she had independent legal advice, naturally the lawyer told her to push for more, but she said she wanted to sign the agreement that we agreed upon, the land and the life insurance, he got her to sign a waiver to cover himself, which was fine.

 

We had a village wedding afterwards, small, simple, locals, the parents received a Sin Sod of 200,000 baht, she never asked for a Sin Sod.

 

We now have two kids, and if things ever went south, she would get the house I built her, the car which is in her name and everything else here in Thailand, about 10% of my worth that I have invested here in Thailand, plus the kids...lol, however if she ever wanted more, she could challenge me under the Family Law Act in Australia because we now have kids, so the judge could say, well when you married, you didn't have kids, now she is going to raise them and the kids will need something for their future, he might award her 10% or 20% of my worth, but it would never be as worse as not having a prenuptial in Australia, i.e. for two kids you would be looking at 75% or more and maybe the shirt off your back. I could put down the total costs for the build, the land, the car, etc, etc, which could be offset against the 10%-20%, but wouldn't bother as she is a great girl and mother to our kids, that said, there would never be any bitterness if we split, so the girls wouldn't miss out.

 

Prenuptials are a must if you can get them in your home country, as for Thailand, from what I understand they don't exist and it's usually a 50/50 split, but don't quote me on that. 

 

As I always say, only invest as much as your prepared to lose, usually around 10%, and just off the cuff, if our new Tiruk is starting to act like a high so because she has a farang, feel free to slap her in the back of the head :) 

 

 

 

[Aussieroaming]

25 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

For what it's worth, you have my utmost respect for having the balls to be different, the "black sheep", i.e. not the usual white sheep always singing baa baa and more baa because when things go south and that white sheep starts singing baa baa baa because he lost most, or all of it to his Tiruk because he didn't want to have his assets/funds separate to his Tiruk, or invested far more than the usual 10% in his relationship, i.e. no 90% fall back position for him.

 

The way I see it is a woman is a woman and laws usually protect or favor the woman for many reasons, but I am not going to go into that, but as far as prenuptial agreements are concerned, it all boils down to what country you are from, that said, get professional advice from a family law specialist, i.e. someone who deals in this arena day in/day out, not just your average Joe the lawyer who takes on everything and is not usually up to date when it comes to the changes in this area of the law.

 

In the UK prenuptial agreements are out, so much for that, however in Australia where I am originally from they are still in as they fall under the Family Law Act, although a mate of mine who you can never win an argument with, will tell you that because of a news article some 12 months ago, they are out the window, which is a load of crap, and I would say he is used that as his excuse not to enter into a prenuptial with his Tiruk who will eventually clean him and his assets up if they split up as they have now 3 kids together and are married in Australia.

 

Now anyone who takes their blinkers off and is open and accepts that they have to have protection in a relationship, and is ready to be a man and does their research on prenuptial agreements will know that prenuptial agreements can be challenged, i.e. they are a contract, and all contracts can be challenged, and if a family law judge finds that the prenuptial was done incorrectly, i.e. signed in the husbands lawyers office with the wife not obtaining independent legal advice from another lawyer, or the bride ended up worse off that when she entered the marriage, then he will no doubt award her some of his pie, i.e. if she was to walk away with nothing.

 

The prenuptial agreement must show she received something, something to be able to fall back onto, in my situation, I purchased her a 1,000m2 of land in my wife's village for 120,000 baht 12 years ago, it was peanuts at the time, and took out a life insurance policy to the value of $100,000 AUS which has remained in force till today and will continue to be valid until I croak it.

 

My wife of 12 year agreed to a prenuptial agreement, then we got married in Australia, she had independent legal advice, naturally the lawyer told her to push for more, but she said she wanted to sign the agreement that we agreed upon, the land and the life insurance, he got her to sign a waiver to cover himself, which was fine.

 

We had a village wedding afterwards, small, simple, locals, the parents received a Sin Sod of 200,000 baht, she never asked for a Sin Sod.

 

We now have two kids, and if things ever went south, she would get the house I built her, the car which is in her name and everything else here in Thailand, about 10% of my worth that I have invested here in Thailand, plus the kids...lol, however if she ever wanted more, she could challenge me under the Family Law Act in Australia because we now have kids, so the judge could say, well when you married, you didn't have kids, now she is going to raise them and the kids will need something for their future, he might award her 10% or 20% of my worth, but it would never be as worse as not having a prenuptial in Australia, i.e. for two kids you would be looking at 75% or more and maybe the shirt off your back. I could put down the total costs for the build, the land, the car, etc, etc, which could be offset against the 10%-20%, but wouldn't bother as she is a great girl and mother to our kids, that said, there would never be any bitterness if we split, so the girls wouldn't miss out.

 

Prenuptials are a must if you can get them in your home country, as for Thailand, from what I understand they don't exist and it's usually a 50/50 split, but don't quote me on that. 

 

As I always say, only invest as much as your prepared to lose, usually around 10%, and just off the cuff, if our new Tiruk is starting to act like a high so because she has a farang, feel free to slap her in the back of the head :) 

 

 

 

Very interesting set up, thanks for sharing it. I would be very interested to how a challenge to that prenup would play out it court, given that your future wifes legal counsel made her sign a waiver to protect himself because he felt she was volountarily agreeing to financially shaft herself in order to get married.

 

I would suspect that the Australian family law court would have a field day, at your expense. 

 

I agree with you that your equity earnt before you were married should have been protected. However once you have children I suspect the courts view your asset protection differently. 

 

All the best to you all as a family, I hope your prenup never needs to be tested.

[BobBKK]

pre-nup?  sin sod?  have you lost your mind?  you don't need to buy her right?  rent don't buy

[vukovar77]

Sin Sod is Thai old custom and we do not have as aliens nothing with this.

Sometimes they just want to show that groom has money and that is all for

countryside family which is not greed.

Any groom which need a money to "take women" here is just a fool.

[Captain 776]

Whether you buy a house ir a condo. If you put it in her name YOU WILL sign a form at the land office that is is HER MONEY and NOT YOURS and you have no clain against either in the future.

 

If you have a good girl and she didnt come from a bar, she should not be expecting a dowry sin sod.

Tell her dowrys are not part of hour culture, if she truly loves you, there will be no issue......if she is just after 200,000 bhat in cash n gold......dont walk.......RUNNNNNNN as fast and as far as you can

[Jaggg88]

In Thai culture, a sin sod is only payable if your bride is still a virgin. If she's been married before or has children no Thai man would pay a sin sod or certainly not a large one. The marriage ceremony at the Amphur gives each party the option to list assets already owned before the marriage. The village/temple marriage ceremonies are just for show and have no legal status and are just an opportunity for the bride and her family to show off how well their daughter has married, hence the sin sod displayed and then returned. In old Thai culture, a girl is obliged to support her parents so she marries the man who is best set to do this. When a Thai boy marries he is obliged to support his new wife's parents. In reality, the old traditions are not so common but that doesn't stop the girls trying it on.   

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Aussieroaming said:

I would suspect that the Australian family law court would have a field day, at your expense. 

 

I agree with you that your equity earnt before you were married should have been protected. However once you have children I suspect the courts view your asset protection differently. 

 

All the best to you all as a family, I hope your prenup never needs to be tested.

Based on my family law specialist advice, the land and life insurance was enough, however he did say that once you have kids, it would be around 10% per child, but nowhere near the 75% most guys get shafted for having 2 kids, not having a prenuptial.

 

The prenup will never be tested, our daughters are in my will as well, and she knows she is on a good thing, so why even think about rocking the boat ????

 

 

[hugocnx]

13 hours ago, Elkski said:

I suppose it matters if the assets are in Thailand or in a person's home country.  And if you plan to reside in Thailand or the USA.  I'm talking about protecting assets  in and residing in USA.  many of you have convinced me that Thailand is not where I want to live at this time. 

Standard statement in a prenup is that all your assets as before the marriage stay your and only your assets.

Standard prenup forms ready available on the web.

[hugocnx]

7 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

If you need a prenup don’t marry your not ready for it.  

Strange feeling you are not married

[hugocnx]

12 hours ago, Gumballl said:

Only a fool pays sin sod. Yes, I had to show money at my wedding ceremony, but after the guests left, I got my money back.

 

If you need a prenup, then you perhaps should just marry your right hand (or left hand, if you are a southpaw). If you already have doubts of the success of the marriage, why go through with it?? 

Then tell me why (not) all those happily married couples get divorced after a while.

No prenup means you have to share your assets you had before marriage. So foolish not to have a prenup.

Edited March 13, 2019 by hugocnx

[Captain 776]

39 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Is there any chance soon someone can stop repeating this utter <deleted> !!

 

Nope......no chance

[MadMuhammad]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

For what it's worth, you have my utmost respect for having the balls to be different, the "black sheep", i.e. not the usual white sheep always singing baa baa and more baa because when things go south and that white sheep starts singing baa baa baa because he lost most, or all of it to his Tiruk because he didn't want to have his assets/funds separate to his Tiruk, or invested far more than the usual 10% in his relationship, i.e. no 90% fall back position for him.

 

The way I see it is a woman is a woman and laws usually protect or favor the woman for many reasons, but I am not going to go into that, but as far as prenuptial agreements are concerned, it all boils down to what country you are from, that said, get professional advice from a family law specialist, i.e. someone who deals in this arena day in/day out, not just your average Joe the lawyer who takes on everything and is not usually up to date when it comes to the changes in this area of the law.

 

In the UK prenuptial agreements are out, so much for that, however in Australia where I am originally from they are still in as they fall under the Family Law Act, although a mate of mine who you can never win an argument with, will tell you that because of a news article some 12 months ago, they are out the window, which is a load of crap, and I would say he is used that as his excuse not to enter into a prenuptial with his Tiruk who will eventually clean him and his assets up if they split up as they have now 3 kids together and are married in Australia.

 

Now anyone who takes their blinkers off and is open and accepts that they have to have protection in a relationship, and is ready to be a man and does their research on prenuptial agreements will know that prenuptial agreements can be challenged, i.e. they are a contract, and all contracts can be challenged, and if a family law judge finds that the prenuptial was done incorrectly, i.e. signed in the husbands lawyers office with the wife not obtaining independent legal advice from another lawyer, or the bride ended up worse off that when she entered the marriage, then he will no doubt award her some of his pie, i.e. if she was to walk away with nothing.

 

The prenuptial agreement must show she received something, something to be able to fall back onto, in my situation, I purchased her a 1,000m2 of land in my wife's village for 120,000 baht 12 years ago, it was peanuts at the time, and took out a life insurance policy to the value of $100,000 AUS which has remained in force till today and will continue to be valid until I croak it.

 

My wife of 12 year agreed to a prenuptial agreement, then we got married in Australia, she had independent legal advice, naturally the lawyer told her to push for more, but she said she wanted to sign the agreement that we agreed upon, the land and the life insurance, he got her to sign a waiver to cover himself, which was fine.

 

We had a village wedding afterwards, small, simple, locals, the parents received a Sin Sod of 200,000 baht, she never asked for a Sin Sod.

 

We now have two kids, and if things ever went south, she would get the house I built her, the car which is in her name and everything else here in Thailand, about 10% of my worth that I have invested here in Thailand, plus the kids...lol, however if she ever wanted more, she could challenge me under the Family Law Act in Australia because we now have kids, so the judge could say, well when you married, you didn't have kids, now she is going to raise them and the kids will need something for their future, he might award her 10% or 20% of my worth, but it would never be as worse as not having a prenuptial in Australia, i.e. for two kids you would be looking at 75% or more and maybe the shirt off your back. I could put down the total costs for the build, the land, the car, etc, etc, which could be offset against the 10%-20%, but wouldn't bother as she is a great girl and mother to our kids, that said, there would never be any bitterness if we split, so the girls wouldn't miss out.

 

Prenuptials are a must if you can get them in your home country, as for Thailand, from what I understand they don't exist and it's usually a 50/50 split, but don't quote me on that. 

 

As I always say, only invest as much as your prepared to lose, usually around 10%, and just off the cuff, if our new Tiruk is starting to act like a high so because she has a farang, feel free to slap her in the back of the head :) 

 

 

 

Solid, balanced advice as always. 

 

Im lucky enough to have found a decent girl, and family, that has stated no son sid to be paid. Her parents are more concerned that I will follow my through on my promise to love her and care for her as long as I live etc. 

 

In regards to asset protection I have very minimal in country and what I have back home is in a family trust structure of which me & my mother are directors. My gf isn’t aware of how much or what it actually is and I doubt her family would have the funds to go chasing it down anyway. That’s beside the point at this time though as I hope that this will be my last foray into the dating world (always gotta have a plan B though)

 

I am of the same thoughts as yourself, invest approx 10-15% of my worth here so if it does go south life can and will continue. 

[MadMuhammad]

43 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Is there any chance soon someone can stop repeating this utter <deleted> !!

 

If the condo is in Thai quota or your trying to buy the land with the house what’s rubbish about that statement? Genuine question 

[david555]

About Sinsod ….page 2 make you understand when appropriate pay and for who not to pay  ...also different pay levels for different girl/woman ...exclusions following Thai tradition , do not let fool yourself by a tradition taken from higher educated Thais'

But be free to pay if you like to do … only do not feel yourself forced by a tradition if not the candidate apply in the category

Sin-Sod Dowry.pdf

[atyclb]

13 hours ago, Gumballl said:

Only a fool pays sin sod. Yes, I had to show money at my wedding ceremony, but after the guests left, I got my money back.

 

If you need a prenup, then you perhaps should just marry your right hand (or left hand, if you are a southpaw). If you already have doubts of the success of the marriage, why go through with it?? 

then statistical reality on divorce sets in