What is your legal status and consequences if failing to meet a post seasoning bank book check?

[Kenny202]

Your post isn't relevant to this topic. 
This topic is about a VERY SPECIFIC thing.
People doing bank account method.
People that got a paper ORDERING them to come back 90 days AFTER their annual extension to show that their bank book hasn't gone under.
Please people, start from there. 
The question here is WHAT HAPPENS to people if they show up following the order to show banl book after 90 days if they do go under?
This could be devastating for the expats involved.
It's not trivial.
The orders have already happened. 

Just a "look at me" pitiful cry for attention. Demanding answers to ridiculous questions. What happens if the sky falls in tomorrow. Jesus. We could make up 100 hypothetical disasters to ponder about

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[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, mfd101 said:

Two fairly obvious responses to the OP's question & subsequents: (1) The POINT of the post-reasoning constraint is to catch out those who, in the past, didn't have the money & borrowed it from a so-called 'agent' & paid it back the next day ie cheats. This does imply that there won't be much interest in your bank balance AFTER the 1st 90 days and until the next extension of stay. (2) There's a pretty good chance noone on the Thai side of the desk has thought past that. Forward planning is not a strength in this culture (think preps for monsoon, preps for drought, safety & risk concepts ... ).

Well there is evidence that even immigration doesn't know yet. They are issuing the orders, yet when the Phuket official was asked basically the same thing I am asking here, which I think is a massively important question that NEEDS to be answered, he dodged the question. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Kenny202 said:

Just a "look at me" pitiful cry for attention. Demanding answers to ridiculous questions. What happens if the sky falls in tomorrow. Jesus. We could make up 100 hypothetical disasters to ponder about

Sent from my SM-J730GM using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

This is not hypothetical.

We already know the orders are being issued. 

It's common sense to realize that some percentage of people being given the orders (for whatever reasons, either justifiable or not) are not going to be able to meet the 90 day POST seasoning rule that WILL BE checked at the 90 day bank book checks.

Perhaps as another suggested, they just should not show up. But if not, that is a violation too. But this important question asks, when such people do show up to a 90 day bank book check and they sadly are under the required level, what EXACTLY will happen to them?

[steve73]

8 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

Your asking someone for an impossible answer to a hypothetical question of how someone can get off the hook if they do something totally stupid.

What happened in these circumstances with the old rules? There is no difference now in that respect

Sent from my SM-J730GM using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

The old rules were totally "pre-seasoning".  I know someone who messed up and dropped under by a few hundred baht when his ATM card annual fee was deducted, and his extension was refused (although subsequently renegotiated with a fat envelope).

 

If the new rules were clarified as a full 12 months of 800k/400k/800k seasoning for the next extension, I'm sure it would work a similar way (and this is how my Immigration Officer explained to me it would work when I renewed last month).

 

But the way that the new rules are actually written does suggest that it could invalidate the current extension.  And it should be clarified at an official level, especially since some offices are requesting a 90 day check, rather than waiting until next extension.

[OJAS]

6 hours ago, glegolo said:

I haven´t read ALL the posts yet, but me for one, have read somewhere that if you fail and go under the 800K or the following 400K you will suffer from it during your NEXT application for a new extension the following year. That is what I have read anyhow.

 

Good luck to you the "4 unlucky ones".....

 

glegolo

Applies equally to the remaining "lucky ones", I think, if they're (also) using the bank balance - rather than monthly income - method.

 

But, reverting to the points which the OP has raised, it strikes me that, if Immigration were, in practice, to get serious in enforcing periodic bank balance checks in year, they would start issuing "under consideration"-type extension dates to coincide with when such checks were due. To date I can only recall 1 report on here of an initial 90-day extension being granted so as to force the applicant to return with his passbook for checking purposes - at Phuket, I believe???

Edited March 16, 2019 by OJAS

[Jingthing]

Just now, steve73 said:

The old rules were totally "pre-seasoning".  I know someone who messed up and dropped under by a few hundred baht when his ATM card annual fee was deducted, and his extension was refused (although subsequently renegotiated with a fat envelope).

 

If the new rules were clarified as a full 12 months of 800k/400k/800k seasoning for the next extension, I'm sure it would work a similar way (and this is how my Immigration Officer explained to me it would work when I renewed last month).

 

But the way that the new rules are actually written does suggest that it could invalidate the current extension.  And it should be clarified at an official level, especially since some offices are requesting a 90 day check, rather than waiting until next extension.

I agree. That is what this topic is about. We NEED information and clarification about what is the exact policy for people that have been ordered to show up to show bank book after 90 days (which I am calling now POST seasoning) that have failed to comply. 

It makes a big difference if the consequence is leave the country in 7 days and then you can start on a new visa VS. instant overstay, immigration prison, deportation, and blacklisted. Many retired expats have large assets here such as condos and vehicles and no place to go back to in their home country. How do you deal with assets here if you're blacklisted? So if blacklisting is on the table as a possible consequence, people NEED to know. I'm not saying it will be. I don't know. But such harsh measures are applied for other immigration violations, so again, people NEED to know. 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Applies equally to the remaining "lucky ones", I think, if they're (also) using the bank balance - rather than monthly income - method.

 

But, reverting to the points which the OP has raised, it strikes me that, if Immigration were, in practice, to get serious in enforcing periodic bank balance checks, they would start issuing "under consideration"-type extension dates to coincide with when such checks were due. To date I can only recall 1 report on here of an initial 90-day date being granted so as to force the applicant to return then with his passbook and receive a further stamp as necessary - at Phuket, I believe???

I don't think they legally need to do under consideration in order to have legal justification to later CANCEL an already approved annual extension if you've failed to meet the requirements.

 

Let's say you're on retirement and caught working. That's a violation of the terms. What happens to those people? Maybe that's a clue for this. 

 

Please don't act like the 90 day orders aren't real. That's a useless diversion to this very serious topic. They are definitely happening now in Jomtien, a very large office for retirement. Tracking which offices are doing it already and which aren't is a separate topic.

 

The topic here  is based on the FACT that these ORDERS have already been issued in some offices, so it concerns all the people that have already gotten these very real ORDERS and all people in future that will be getting them.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Jingthing

[ubonjoe]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

As the immigration leader in Phuket didn't offer any information on what happens if people show up for their 90 day show bank book thing, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that you know either.

I am not aware of a 90 day check. Only the 3 months after they applied note done in Jomtien.

I think it would depend on how much and when the it dropped below 800k baht.

I am sure it went to almost zero shortly after the application was done they would have grounds to cancel the extension since that is what I think they are trying to prevet.

If went below the 800k baht number by a small amount they might be flexible.

[newatthis]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I agree. That is what this topic is about. We NEED information and clarification about what is the exact policy for people that have been ordered to show up to show bank book after 90 days (which I am calling now POST seasoning) that have failed to comply. 

It makes a big difference if the consequence is leave the country in 7 days and then you can start on a new visa VS. instant overstay, immigration prison, deportation, and blacklisted. Many retired expats have large assets here such as condos and vehicles and no place to go back to in their home country. How do you deal with assets here if you're blacklisted? So if blacklisting is on the table as a possible consequence, people NEED to know. I'm not saying it will be. I don't know. But such harsh measures are applied for other immigration violations, so again, people NEED to know. 

Why don't you ask your local immigration office? How can you expect expats to know answers to your hypothetical questions that delve into an unknown  future? 

[Jingthing]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

I am not aware of a 90 day check. Only the 3 months after they applied note done in Jomtien.

I think it would depend on how much and when the it dropped below 800k baht.

I am sure it went to almost zero shortly after the application was done they would have grounds to cancel the extension since that is what I think they are trying to prevet.

If went below the 800k baht number by a small amount they might be flexible.

OK, that's a good start. Thank you. Of course you don't know they actually would be flexible on smaller amounts under, but it makes sense to me that they might.

 

So lets talk about cases where they decide NOT to flexible. Either a wipe up of the account or if they just take things strictly (like they often do for other matters).

 

So let's say they cancel the extension.

Let's say the account went under 60 days before the 90 day bank book check meeting.

Then what?
Would the person be on overstay from the day the account went under?

With what you know about legal consequences for other immigration violations, can you offer a theory on the exact consequences?

I have offered pure guess between a more "polite" leave the county in 7 days up to a potentiall ruinous consequence of imprisonment, deportation, and blacklisting?

Again, I don't expect that you will know this but you do know about consequences for other violations, so I thought you might have a credible theory. 

[yodsak]

23 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Does anyone have a snapshot/copy of one of the orders ? Would be interesting to see the wording etc.

 

 

Doesn't mention what will happen, at a guess, they will cancel the visa, or they won't give you next years

[mokwit]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Let's say you're on retirement and caught working. That's a violation of the terms. What happens to those people? Maybe that's a clue for this. 

The piece of paper you sign accknowledging can't work uses some word like revoke or cancel

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, newatthis said:

Why don't you ask your local immigration office? How can you expect expats to know answers to your hypothetical questions that delve into an unknown  future? 

I'm asking here. My main target here was to see if Ubonjoe had any information or opinions about this. 

[Vacuum]

38 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

People doing bank account method.

People that got a paper ORDERING them to come back 90 days AFTER their annual extension to show that their bank book hasn't gone under.

Well, I did my extension last week, there was no such paper handed to me. IO said; see you next year.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Vacuum

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, yodsak said:

 

 

Doesn't mention what will happen, at a guess, they will cancel the visa, or they won't give you next years

If the only consequence was no annual extension NEXT year, there is no logical reason for these much earlier 90 day orders.

[OJAS]

3 minutes ago, newatthis said:

Why don't you ask your local immigration office?

Unfortunately the answer he'll get will probably depend on 2 crucial factors:-

 

(1) The particular officer to whom he poses the question (and who might have a different take on this whole issue to his/her colleagues).

 

(2) The particular side of the bed which said officer got out of that morning.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Vacuum said:

Well, I did my extension last week, there was no such paper handed to me. IO said; see you next year.

I never said the orders were being given to all applicants in all offices. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, OJAS said:

Unfortunately the answer he'll get will probably depend on 2 crucial factors:-

 

(1) The particular officer to whom he poses the question (and who might have a different take on this whole issue to his/her colleagues).

 

(2) The particular side of the bed which said officer got out of that morning.

Exactly. 

[Vacuum]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I never said the orders were being given to all applicants in all offices. 

So, it's a local Jomtien/Pattaya thing then?

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, mokwit said:

The piece of paper you sign accknowledging can't work uses some word like revoke or cancel

As I assumed,

This could be a useful CLUE as to what might happen to people showing up for 90 day bank book reports and being under, then revoked.

Does anyone know (Ubonjoe?) what are the usual consequences for such violators?

Is it the more mild leave Thailand in 7 days type thing or is it more severe including horrors like depuration and blacklisting? 

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So let's say they cancel the extension.

You would have to leave the country on the date of cancelation or apply for an extension. pay 1900 baht and be granted 7 days to leave the country.

They would not pre date the cancellation to put you on an overstay.

I don't want to get into supposition about the if and or maybes since I do not know the answers,

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Vacuum said:

So, it's a local Jomtien/Pattaya thing then?

This isn't an order tracking thread. Even if it was "only" at Chonburi immigration Jomtien is a VERY high volume office. 

[Peterw42]

There is a big difference between an "order" telling you to come back in 90 days and a reminder to keep money in account for 90 days. (would be great to see one of these come back in 90 day orders)

The first issue is to clarify that anyone has actually been given an order to return and not just a reminder to keep funds document.

A friend did an extension in Jomtien a week ago and was given a reminder document "not" an order to return in 90 days.

It appears that people may be confusing the reminder as an order to return.

 

[roobaa01]

what happens to someone with the combo method ??? i could not find any hints for how long the bank balance must be post-seasoned and at what amount ????

 

wbr

roobaa01

[Jingthing]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

You would have to leave the country on the date of cancelation or apply for an extension. pay 1900 baht and be granted 7 days to leave the country.

They would not pre date the cancellation to put you on an overstay.

I don't want to get into supposition about the if and or maybes since I do not know the answers,

Thank you very much. 

That is very useful information.

I didn't know the exit order could be that instant but I assume from your answer it's not hard to get that seven day extension to then leave the country.

I appreciate your ethical POV to not comment further. 

As I kind of expected, immigration probably doesn't know yet and I didn't expect you to know yet either. 

I am hoping for more complete answers and information but it's clear now this is PREMATURE.

UJ, if you happen to learn something about this in future, please let us know.

Cheers. 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

There is a big difference between an "order" telling you to come back in 90 days and a reminder to keep money in account for 90 days. (would be great to see one of these come back in 90 day orders)

The first issue is to clarify that anyone has actually been given an order to return and not just a reminder to keep funds document.

A friend did an extension in Jomtien a week ago and was given a reminder document "not" an order to return in 90 days.

It appears that people may be confusing the reminder as an order to return.

 

No. You're wrong. These orders to show up with bank book exist.

 

[newatthis]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I'm asking here. My main target here was to see if Ubonjoe had any information or opinions about this. 

With all due respect, Ubonjoe does not authorize extensions. He is a mere mortal like the rest of us who sit at the table awaiting the approval [or not] of the lords and ladies of the fiefdom. Until someone does boo-boo with their bankbook, there is no way that we can know what punishment will be handed out to such a rogue. Mmmm, are those stocks I see being built in front of the Immigration Office?

[yodsak]

7 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

There is a big difference between an "order" telling you to come back in 90 days and a reminder to keep money in account for 90 days. (would be great to see one of these come back in 90 day orders)

The first issue is to clarify that anyone has actually been given an order to return and not just a reminder to keep funds document.

A friend did an extension in Jomtien a week ago and was given a reminder document "not" an order to return in 90 days.

It appears that people may be confusing the reminder as an order to return.

 

 

told me to come back and show updated passbook in 3 months. no confusion

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, newatthis said:

With all due respect, Ubonjoe does not authorize extensions. He is a mere mortal like the rest of us who sit at the table awaiting the approval [or not] of the lords and ladies of the fiefdom. Until someone does boo-boo with their bankbook, there is no way that we can know what punishment will be handed out to such a rogue. Mmmm, are those stocks I see being built in front of the Immigration Office?

I agree he isn't a God. But here on thaivisa.com he is the grand poobah of visa GURUS and don't you ever forget it. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, yodsak said:

 

told me to come back and show updated passbook in 3 months. no confusion

 

You'll probably need to post that 10 more times before some people stop denying this issue exists.