For Thailand’s sake, let’s move beyond Thaksin

[robblok]

40 minutes ago, monkfish said:

Well this is Thailand and donations are not unheard of.
But I do wonder if the current PM's wife bought some land if he would go to prison for it.
Somehow I don't think so.
 

Does that mean that Thaksin is innocent, no it does not mean that. It only means that some people have more power and would get away with it. Its totally wrong, but it does not make Thaksin his crimes any less real.

Come on a cake box full of money and you act like it perfectly normal. I guess bias shows. 

 

Is it so hard to say that Thaksin is a corrupt crook and that Thailand would be better of without him.

 

Same goes for Prayut. I guess its quite hard for people to accept that not liking Thaksin does not mean pro junta. Just means that people have seen what a crook Thaksin is and want him held accountable. Just like they would want Prayut to be accountable. Sad fact is both of them are not accountable, one because he is a coward and stays out of reach of justice the other because he got an army behind him.

[Dap]

10 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...For Thailand’s sake, let’s move beyond Thaksin..."

 

Thailand is not going to 'move beyond Thaksin' for a while because of one, very simple reason...

 

If there were genuinely Free and Fair elections here, Thaksin would win. Easily.

 

I know it.

You know it.

He knows it.

Prayut knows it.

The Military know it.

All the security services know it.

All the political parties know it.

All international observers of Thailand know it.

All of Thailand knows it.

All. Every last person.

 

The Democratic will of Thailand is not being respected, and all know it.

 

And, the article brings out the old canard of Thaksin being "convicted". First, it is almost certainly true that he is guilty of something; all of Thailand's leaders fall into that category. However, the article, as usual, misses the point.

 

If all of Thailand's political leaders are guilty of some kind of wrong-doing (and they almost certainly all are), then a 'conviction' of one while all the others get off without a proper investigation and/or proper trial renders that conviction meaningless.

 

When General Rolex is escorted to the 'big house', I'll happily help drag Thaksin there. Until then, spare me the nonsense that the "conviction' matters in the slightest.

 

It is a cheap, meaningless political talking point, nothing more.

 

 

Very well said 

[KhunFred]

10 hours ago, perthuniversity said:

the worst article i've read in relation to the election so far

 

totally misses the point

 

 

Agreed.  If we were to move "beyond" Thaksin, we would have to admit that he was illegally removed from office, as was his sister. They are victims of a thug regime which will never relinquish power. Both were extremely popular in the North, which is the "real" Thailand. Bangkok is not the reality, Kalasin is.

[Eligius]

Stupid article.

 

It's fine to 'move beyond Thaksin' - if that is what the Thai people vote for.

 

It's as simple as that. It's a weird, unheard-of thing called 'the will of the people' and DEMOCRACY!

[fusion58]

A headline from a newspaper whose name shall go unmentioned sums the situation up...

 

Quote

Corruption 'too ingrained in society to fix'

 

[Jip99]

1 hour ago, KhunFred said:

Agreed.  If we were to move "beyond" Thaksin, we would have to admit that he was illegally removed from office, as was his sister. They are victims of a thug regime which will never relinquish power. Both were extremely popular in the North, which is the "real" Thailand. Bangkok is not the reality, Kalasin is.

 

 

They were also crooks.

 

 

I imagine you will overlook Thaksin's war on drugs and the illegal killings........................... probably popular in the north.

[MisterPenguin]

6 hours ago, Mexlark said:

But is the situation really any better now? He basically encouraged certain people to shoot a whole load of minor dealers in the back because someone had been leading his son into trouble. Pure spite really. That also had the effect of preventing any investigation of much bigger and more important investors in narco-biz (who are heavily embedded in the local elite). All in all, a shoddy piece of politics.

 

Agreed, no one here really cares a toss about this issue. Likewise, they don't really care a toss about numerous other major Thaksin policy FUs: the deep South, to name just one.

 

Not sure. Thaksin badly wanted some brownie points, and (at that time) he thought he could still get them. Bad mistake to think that nouveau-riche money would be accepted into the club. So when the 'suggestion' that drug dealers should be dealt with was delivered, he, like a soppy teenager was keen to oblige. As the suggestor knew he would be. And the rest (as they say) is history.

 

Didn't do him any good, he was just made the lightning rod for the suggestor, as he should have know he would be. Blind loyalty is one thing, blind stupidity is quite another.

[MisterPenguin]

39 minutes ago, fusion58 said:

A headline from a newspaper whose name shall go unmentioned sums the situation up...

 

 

 

Agreed. Sometimes a nice wash is required, other times, nothing short of a biblical flood could cure it. Countless years of society showing that corruption is acceptable cannot be compensated for by a couple of army types saying 'naughty naughty', especially when the same army types have shown that corruption suited them very nicely thankyou.

 

It's a problem, people seeking power everywhere recognise that power is the only way to acquire more wealth, and that it's the only real justification for getting power in the first place. When even the shining city on the hill is rotten to it's core with corruption, poor old Bangkok can't really be blamed for thinking it's OK to be bent and to pretend you're not.

 

 

[MisterPenguin]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

Exactly what happened in 1917. Thailand needs a couple of Lenins and Stalins to put power back into the hands of the people. Couple of million dead Thais but hey.

 

Not going to happen, it would be decried as being socialism.

 

Besides, Putin is apparently now the richest and most corrupt of the oligarchs, so even Lenin and Stalin could not overcome human nature. The tea-leaves make for depressing reading right about now..

 

 

[shy coconut]

11 hours ago, bluesofa said:

<cynical mode on>

Thainess

<cynical mode off>

Not only "Thainess" but human nature in general, I'd say.

 

Show me one person who didn't wish they had more money.

[daboyz1]

Just leave the military in power. This place is not capable of democracy. 

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, daboyz1 said:

Just leave the military in power. This place is not capable of democracy. 

They have been. More years than elected government. Didn’t improve the well being of the people and corrupt as hell Bring back democracy. 

[pornprong]

10 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, I almost forgot, Thaksin is also responsible for the murder of 2500 suspected drug dealers and users

Maybe you should educate yourself a little about all the ongoing court cases against Thaksin. He did a lot more than sign a paper for his wife.

But then again I don't expect that you will educate yourself. Staying ignorant makes it so much easier to support the fugitive criminal.

Maybe it is you who should be doing a little self-education?

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2007/08/2275-where-did-this-number-come-from/

Or do you prefer to stay ignorant?

 

 

[Jip99]

6 hours ago, Spidey said:

Exactly what happened in 1917. Thailand needs a couple of Lenins and Stalins to put power back into the hands of the people. Couple of million dead Thais but hey.

 

 

Didn't they try that in Cambodia ?................. without much success.

 

 

 

 

[pornprong]

10 hours ago, Mexlark said:

But is the situation really any better now? He basically encouraged certain people to shoot a whole load of minor dealers in the back because someone had been leading his son into trouble. Pure spite really. That also had the effect of preventing any investigation of much bigger and more important investors in narco-biz (who are heavily embedded in the local elite). All in all, a shoddy piece of politics.

 

Agreed, no one here really cares a toss about this issue. Likewise, they don't really care a toss about numerous other major Thaksin policy FUs: the deep South, to name just one.

Ahhhh, so much, so wrong in such a short post.

 

The first war on drugs was started in 2003 by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, at the behest of........
 

[Jip99]

8 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

Some like you may hope that it’s just futility but history provide reasons to be hopeful when the grassroots have a cause and leaders. I am in that latter camp. 

 

 

Hold that fantasy..............

[pornprong]

10 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I get your point. But for me democracy is not in itself something holy which must be upheld no matter what.

Personally I like if a country has a capable and just government.

 

Do you think a democratically elected government which contains corrupt criminals is better than any other government only because they were democratically elected? Personally I don't think so.

The majority of people are uneducated and best case average intelligence and most of them don't understand what is happening - even if they would try to understand it.

If a political party would promise free handout and no taxes for everybody lots of people would vote for them. And then the people would be surprised that the state can't work without taxes.

 

We need a good government and at least I don't care if the stupid masses voted for it or not.

The difference is that democracy's have a mechanism (elections) that allow for self correction without blood being spilled in the streets and economies being trashed in the process.

 

Your views about the majority of people say more about you than it does about them.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

[pornprong]

10 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And somehow some people think they represent the poor. 555

Show us a photo of another Thai billionaire who introduced universal healthcare.

Infant mortality dropped by 17,000 per year because of this policy alone.

555

[pornprong]

7 hours ago, robblok said:

The point is that Thaksin is as good as anyone in influencing the judiciary. He brought a cake box full of cash to them and then later said it was an accident. I guess only die hard Thaksin fans believe that one.(im amazed he was never convicted for it)  He was convicted while his party was in power during a democracy. He was dirty nothing more nothing less.

You contradict yourself a bit.

Guess it's tough being a fanboy these days.

 

1. If Thaksin was "as good as anyone" at influencing the judiciary why has he had, amongst many other things, 2 political parties dissolved, 2 prime ministers sacked, $1 billion of his own assets seized and a personal conviction.....all by the Thai judiciary which he apparently can influence?

 

2. If he had power over the judiciary then why would he need to resort to bribes?

 

Finally, he was never convicted of bribery because the allegation was simply one man's word against another.

Surely you're not advocating convictions based upon here-say are you (because that would be a bit fascist, which surely you're not).

[pornprong]

16 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's always sad when people compare these cases. It's like comparing a mass murderer with a guy who hit someone once with a fist. Yes, they both did wrong but on a totally different scale.

Thaksin was not only super corrupt, he also didn't even try to hide it. I read the news every day when he was in power and I always thought: How can he get away with that, it's so obvious.

Thaksin was "super corrupt" - news to me.

Have you got any evidence to back up your claim?

What do you know about Thai corruption?

Who is the second or third most corrupt after Thaksin?

What is the dollar value of Thaksin's corruption, how does it compare with the second, third and fourth most corrupt?

Give us a list of all of the "so obvious" crimes he committed - here's a good link to start with:

 

https://www.newmandala.org/a-response-to-vanina-sucharitkul/

 

My bet is you, like the remaining few right wingers left here should spend more of your time learning about the dunning-kruger effect

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[cookieqw]

17 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"...For Thailand’s sake, let’s move beyond Thaksin..."

 

Thailand is not going to 'move beyond Thaksin' for a while because of one, very simple reason...

 

If there were genuinely Free and Fair elections here, Thaksin would win. Easily.

 

I know it.

You know it.

He knows it.

Prayut knows it.

The Military know it.

All the security services know it.

All the political parties know it.

All international observers of Thailand know it.

All of Thailand knows it.

All. Every last person.

 

The Democratic will of Thailand is not being respected, and all know it.

 

And, the article brings out the old canard of Thaksin being "convicted". First, it is almost certainly true that he is guilty of something; all of Thailand's leaders fall into that category. However, the article, as usual, misses the point.

 

If all of Thailand's political leaders are guilty of some kind of wrong-doing (and they almost certainly all are), then a 'conviction' of one while all the others get off without a proper investigation and/or proper trial renders that conviction meaningless.

 

When General Rolex is escorted to the 'big house', I'll happily help drag Thaksin there. Until then, spare me the nonsense that the "conviction' matters in the slightest.

 

It is a cheap, meaningless political talking point, nothing more.

 

 

RIGHT RIGHT and RIGHT again

[cookieqw]

13 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes, I still follow the news everyday. And there is no question that our current rulers are also not exactly clean.

And I am aware of the fact that we read in the news only part of what is going on.

 

All in all I still think what Thaksin did was a lot worse than what the current people in charge are doing. Part of it is probably also the fact that Thaksin just had to rub it in all the time. It was not enough that he was corrupt and it was not enough that he preferred people who voted for him. He had to tell everybody all the time that he gets away with his crimes and he was proud to work only for the Thais who voted for him.

I don't think Prayut or anybody of the current crowd is even half as bad as Thaksin.

well said, like most of the post's i have read they all mostly have credence, but  but,   bad is bad,  you either abide by the law or you do not.  their are no different levels

[sjaak327]

19 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And fact #3 is that most Thais ignore facts and logic. If people would look at facts and if they would make logical decisions based on facts then they wouldn't elect criminals and expect and honest government. But Thais again and again vote for the same criminals and somehow they "think" somehow things will improve. That won't happen. But how to explain that to buffaloes?

At least previously they could vote criminals in. Now they get the criminals whether they like it or not. The court case against Thaksin wasn't all that clear cut as the article and you seem to believe. 

[Eric Loh]

9 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Hold that fantasy..............

Really we both have constructing fantasy. You hope for continue authoritarian governing while I wish and hope the people gets their freedom to mandate their leaders and their life.      

[robblok]

10 hours ago, pornprong said:

You contradict yourself a bit.

Guess it's tough being a fanboy these days.

 

1. If Thaksin was "as good as anyone" at influencing the judiciary why has he had, amongst many other things, 2 political parties dissolved, 2 prime ministers sacked, $1 billion of his own assets seized and a personal conviction.....all by the Thai judiciary which he apparently can influence?

 

2. If he had power over the judiciary then why would he need to resort to bribes?

 

Finally, he was never convicted of bribery because the allegation was simply one man's word against another.

Surely you're not advocating convictions based upon here-say are you (because that would be a bit fascist, which surely you're not).

1) if he was not good then he would have had his corrupt ass kicked out before. You have no point because you don't know how he would have faired otherwise neither have i so its a moot point.

 

2) How do you think you get power over the judiciary.. for free.... (just think it over)

 

3) as a die hard red supporter you forget to mention that his lawyers were convicted. So it i did happen and is not one word against an other. They only could not prove the Thaksin connection. Juridically but logically everyone knows he was behind it. You just don't  want the truth to be known about him

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7473641.stm

 

[daboyz1]

My wife is dragging me out to isaan this weekend so she can vote. Whoever wins, it will devolve into the same old thing. Protests and riots in Bangkok followed by another coup. Just let the military run the country. Look at the Philippines or Malaysia. Both political nightmares.

Sent from my SM-A730F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[malagateddy]

Thought you were on about the eu for a minute[emoji6]

I think you are wrong, for this very simple reason. Irrespective of the degree of corruption involved ( and personally I tend to the view that the current bunch are at least as bad, if not worse than the various Thaksin regimes); Thaksin's governments  were put into power by a free election, he used the ballot box to keep himself in power, and he was ejected from power by the military and the establishment they are beholden to when, on three occasions, he either had (once) won re-election or (twice) looked very much like doing so. By contrast the current regime seized power by a coup, in the middle of a disputed but entirely legal election. There is evidence that they were party to that disruption. They have kept office for longer than the period allowed for an elected government, and have maintained themselves in power, and surpressed opposition by force, threat of force, and various decrees. They have employed an appointed "rubber stamp" parliament to provide a veneer of legality to massive expenditure on projects which largely benefit themselves (the military) and those they serve, and have concerned themselves little with the needs of the general population. Finally, they have created and are currently presiding over an electoral system which is openly designed to ensure that any party or faction which wins a mandate (especially Thaksin's faction) is frustrated, the voters are cheated, and they retain power. Elements within their power group have made it quite clear if, unexpectedly, a government not to their liking emerges from this election, then they will stage another coup.
 
That is an infinitely greater degree of corruption.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Eric Loh]

17 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Thought you were on about the eu for a minute

They had a coup? I must have slept through it. 

[pornprong]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

1) if he was not good then he would have had his corrupt ass kicked out before. You have no point because you don't know how he would have faired otherwise neither have i so its a moot point.

 

2) How do you think you get power over the judiciary.. for free.... (just think it over)

 

3) as a die hard red supporter you forget to mention that his lawyers were convicted. So it i did happen and is not one word against an other. They only could not prove the Thaksin connection. Juridically but logically everyone knows he was behind it. You just don't  want the truth to be known about him

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7473641.stm

 

1. Thaksin has never had any level of control over the Thai courts.

 

2. Here again you show a complete lack of understanding of Thai politics. You get control of the judiciary the same way you get control over the senate -  by controlling the appointment process.

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2012/07/on-the-judicial-appointment-process-in-thailand-possible-changes-worse-than-a-military-coup/

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2013/03/thai-constitution-court-chief-admits-decision-to-dissolve-the-pro-thaksin-ppp-was-political/

 

3. As a die hard red supporter As a die hard democracy supporter - the struggle in Thailand has always been about democracy versus authoritarianism. "Thaksin is the devil" and "politicians are corrupt"  are false flag, red herring, propaganda arguments made by pro-authoritarians because their (your) cause is so unpalatable.

 

Re: the bribery case:

 

1. Why did Krairerk wait 10 months to report the "crime"?

2. Why was the case actually filed by an extremist yellow shirt nutter, how did Veera even get involved?

 

"The court also rejected Charnchai’s accusation that the notice against him, filed by yellow-shirt activist Veera Somkwankid, was suspicious as it came 10 months after the incident, reasoning that Krairerk was occupied with tasks as tribunal judge back then."

 

Despite, reason, logic and common sense - you are just choosing to believe what you want so as to continue your support of authoritarian rule.

[billd766]

22 hours ago, Pilotman said:

That's because each of the so called 'democratic governments' voted into power were corrupt. 

I disagree that that was the problem, unless all governments arising from a coup were/are also corrupt.

 

At least with elected government they could be voted out. Having said that (and ignoring post coup governments) Thaksin and the TRT were the only party since 1932 to have lasted a full 4 year term and then be re-elected.

 

The courts disbanded the TRT, it was replaced by another party (the PPP) which also won and election before it was disbanded and replaced by the PTP which was also disbanded.

 

That tells me that although he was corrupt more Thais preferred Thaksin's parties than any other party.

 

It will be interesting to see how the election turns out this weekend.