Dying in Thailand and the safety of your financial and ‘other’ assets

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Bundooman said:

My view too. I have a valid will for my UK assets. I believe that I have to make a will here in Thailand for my Thai assets, which means it somehow has to mirror, (both in English and Thai), my UK Will. 

Doesn't have to mirror your UK Will. Just in the preamble mention that the following Will is exclusively for your assets in Thailand.

 

There are lengthy, and not very conclusive, threads on TV about Wills. A quick summary is this:

 

1. The lawyer mafia argues that all Wills need to go through probate, including Wills held by the Amphur (Amphur Wills). This is counterintuitive, since Amphur Wills were designed for the average villager, with average assets, and thus a bypass to a lengthy, and maybe costly, probate process.

     a.  So, even if you accomplished an Amphur Will, whether your banker, or the land office, would accept such without probate, is an unknown.

           - And, many Amphurs will NOT even do Wills for farangs.

 

2.  If, as the mafia says, your Will must suffer probate, this means several months of process, and we've heard that 50,000 baht is the possible standard fee.

     -  So, if the beneficiary is depending on your bank funds, be prepared for a delay -- and a financial hit.

 

3. There's a mixed report on what bank managers might do. They may accept an Amphur Will for your individual account; and for joint accounts, they may allow assets to be reassigned to the survivor.

     a. The following defies logic for us Westerners -- but apparently there have been cases where joint accounts have been frozen, pending probate procedures to free up the surviving 50%. 

 

     b. For an individual savings account, with 800k plus for retirement annual renewal at Immigration, you can put your GF or wife or partner as, essentially, a Power of Attorney, meaning he/she has access to your account. Officially, this is only while you're alive. But, when you're in a terminal coma, or before rigor mortis, have the account emptied out. You can do this online, or in person with the passbook (which includes your name as POA). I personally was told by our local bank manager that this would not be a problem and, in fact, is the norm for our small village. Legally? Who's to bitch, if your account had the POA as the sole beneficiary. The lawyers might bitch, about losing probate fees. But.......... (deleted).

 

     c.  Unfortunately, as I understand it, you can't put a POA name on a fixed account. Thus, you may have to decide whether or not to exclude some interest income, in favor of not having this fixed account go through probate (at, maybe, 50000 baht).

 

For the OP, I'd go ahead and draft a Will, in long hand, with the standard " I leave all my assets to my GF xxxxxx, including bank accounts xxxxx. Should she not survive me, I then leave xxxxx to xxxxxx. I designate my GF xxxxxxx as my executor, and as my 'next of kin.'

 

     a.  Make this Will an all inclusive document, meaning, add a page that outlines your desires as far as body disposal. Authorize your next of kin (which you've designated as your GF) to carry out your desires, which should include in the document, e.g, cremation, with ash disposal at option of NOK.

             -  The British Embassy, apparently, will need such authorization before they will allow your body to head for jolly ole England, or more likely, to the barbecue pit.

 

     b.  Just to add to the intrigue of your Will, add some living will sentences, like, you don't want to be kept alive by heroic means, don't keep me alive if there's minimal hope for recovery, and make my GF the decision maker if I should no longer be capable of making decisions.

 

You can write this all out in long hand, and it will be legitimate. But, probably best to then type it out, and then have two witnesses (not a beneficiary), with Thai ID numbers, to sign the typed document. If you're lucky, this is all you'll ever need: Certainly, as it's already in English, the Brit Embassy will accept it, and your last instructions, to release the body for cremation/whatever. How the bank accounts get settled is another matter. If the bank manager insists on probation, well, have a lawyer handy to translate your typed/witnessed Will into Thai -- then proceed on the probation procedure. Hopefully, you'll not need to go that far.

 

 

 

[Jaggg88]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Yeah, being overly conservative, I saved way more money than I'll ever need -- and that covers any contingency, including long term care. But, it's hard to break old habits, so I still find myself wasting time, looking for nitnoy discounts or promotions. What a waste. At least I now afford myself business class when I travel abroad.

 

I love the bumper sticker on an RV I saw traveling across the States: "We're spending our children's inheritance." Or, the goal in life: The first check you ever bounce is the one to the undertaker.

 

I'm a Ski'er Spending Kids Inheritance ????

[glennb6]

I'll throw a question in here too;  Happily separated for 8 yrs, before I moved back from USSA to Thailand it didn't matter (if divorced or not) as had nothing in Thai bank.

Now that I am retired and have moved back to Thailand hopefully for the duration -- I'm still separated (from Thai wife) but not as far as I know, legally divorced.

 

My present and very sweet girlfriend (whom I would at this point be happy to keep for the duration) says that when I die that the govt will contact my separated wife and whatever I have in Thailand bank and any assets will be given to her.

 

If I recall I checked the 'single' box on the original visa application form, but kind of concerned that if I had to file for a divorce in Thailand, she would want baht and the court might say give her half of all I currently have in Thailand bank.

 

OTOH she might have filed for an uncontested divorce some yrs ago when I was in USSA, or she might be dead. I have not had contact with the X, ahem separated-X, in 8+ yrs, and hopefully not for the next 800 yrs.  Is there a way to check to see if I have been divorced or have any claims from her? And upon my demise would a Thai Will from myself supersede probate?

????

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by glennb6

[nong38]

1 hour ago, Tomahawk21 said:

would it have to be a Thai marriage or one that is registered in the OPs own country?

Just the legal Thai marriage not the "village" version, it does not need to be registered in the OP's own country.

[007 RED]

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 4:27 PM, bouph12 said:

A married couple can have a simple will registered and kept at the local Amphur for minimal cost without involving a lawyer. You could ask there if they'll do the same for you and your partner. 

 

I have seen this comment made on a number of other posts regarding making a will in Thailand.   It seems a sensible arrangement that could prevent the executor (in my case, Mrs MoneyBaht) being accused of modifying the will etc.

 

Unfortunately, when I enquired about having a copy of my will deposited at my District office (Sampran), the senior administrator (who was a very friendly) advised me that this service is only available for Thais. 

 

I'm not sure if there is any specific law which precludes a foreigner using this service, or if it is just a local get out phrase.

 

 

[nong38]

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Doesn't have to mirror your UK Will. Just in the preamble mention that the following Will is exclusively for your assets in Thailand.

 

There are lengthy, and not very conclusive, threads on TV about Wills. A quick summary is this:

 

1. The lawyer mafia argues that all Wills need to go through probate, including Wills held by the Amphur (Amphur Wills). This is counterintuitive, since Amphur Wills were designed for the average villager, with average assets, and thus a bypass to a lengthy, and maybe costly, probate process.

     a.  So, even if you accomplished an Amphur Will, whether your banker, or the land office, would accept such without probate, is an unknown.

           - And, many Amphurs will NOT even do Wills for farangs.

 

2.  If, as the mafia says, your Will must suffer probate, this means several months of process, and we've heard that 50,000 baht is the possible standard fee.

     -  So, if the beneficiary is depending on your bank funds, be prepared for a delay -- and a financial hit.

 

3. There's a mixed report on what bank managers might do. They may accept an Amphur Will for your individual account; and for joint accounts, they may allow assets to be reassigned to the survivor.

     a. The following defies logic for us Westerners -- but apparently there have been cases where joint accounts have been frozen, pending probate procedures to free up the surviving 50%. 

 

     b. For an individual savings account, with 800k plus for retirement annual renewal at Immigration, you can put your GF or wife or partner as, essentially, a Power of Attorney, meaning he/she has access to your account. Officially, this is only while you're alive. But, when you're in a terminal coma, or before rigor mortis, have the account emptied out. You can do this online, or in person with the passbook (which includes your name as POA). I personally was told by our local bank manager that this would not be a problem and, in fact, is the norm for our small village. Legally? Who's to bitch, if your account had the POA as the sole beneficiary. The lawyers might bitch, about losing probate fees. But.......... (deleted).

 

     c.  Unfortunately, as I understand it, you can't put a POA name on a fixed account. Thus, you may have to decide whether or not to exclude some interest income, in favor of not having this fixed account go through probate (at, maybe, 50000 baht).

 

For the OP, I'd go ahead and draft a Will, in long hand, with the standard " I leave all my assets to my GF xxxxxx, including bank accounts xxxxx. Should she not survive me, I then leave xxxxx to xxxxxx. I designate my GF xxxxxxx as my executor, and as my 'next of kin.'

 

     a.  Make this Will an all inclusive document, meaning, add a page that outlines your desires as far as body disposal. Authorize your next of kin (which you've designated as your GF) to carry out your desires, which should include in the document, e.g, cremation, with ash disposal at option of NOK.

             -  The British Embassy, apparently, will need such authorization before they will allow your body to head for jolly ole England, or more likely, to the barbecue pit.

 

     b.  Just to add to the intrigue of your Will, add some living will sentences, like, you don't want to be kept alive by heroic means, don't keep me alive if there's minimal hope for recovery, and make my GF the decision maker if I should no longer be capable of making decisions.

 

You can write this all out in long hand, and it will be legitimate. But, probably best to then type it out, and then have two witnesses (not a beneficiary), with Thai ID numbers, to sign the typed document. If you're lucky, this is all you'll ever need: Certainly, as it's already in English, the Brit Embassy will accept it, and your last instructions, to release the body for cremation/whatever. How the bank accounts get settled is another matter. If the bank manager insists on probation, well, have a lawyer handy to translate your typed/witnessed Will into Thai -- then proceed on the probation procedure. Hopefully, you'll not need to go that far.

 

 

 

Pretty good Jim, you just about covered everything for most people there and as you mentioned in not so many words is that Thais will interpret things differently and one thing that might be useful is to find out who the "local Headman" is make contact ( well your lady does  O so that when things come to a head he is useful to get things done when you meet resistance.

[nong38]

1 minute ago, 007 RED said:

I have seen this comment made on a number of other posts regarding making a will in Thailand.   It seems a sensible arrangement that could prevent the executor (in my case, Mrs MoneyBaht) being accused of modifying the will etc.

 

Unfortunately, when I enquired about having a copy of my will deposited at my District office (Sampran), the senior administrator (who was a very friendly) advised me that this service is only available for Thais. 

 

I'm not sure if there is any specific law which precludes a foreigner using this service, or if it is just a local get out phrase.

 

 

I suspect it the later, I am friendly but also in control. I had 3 copies made, one for me, one for the lady and the lawyer has kept one.

Thai will should state it does affect assets in the home country and the home country will should state that it does affect the Thai will so the 2 sets of assets are kept seperate.

[Lacessit]

I have an Australian will and a Thai will that say the same thing. My assets in Oz go to my son, he is the executor for those assets. My assets in Thailand go to my Thai GF. She is the executor for those assets.

[Neeranam]

Most of my wealth(cryptocurrency) is on a ledger nano s. It has a 24 word password plus other security features. 

If I die, I've left instructions with my elder daughter and wife.

House and bank balances/boxes are easy.

[shaurene]

Well I am 77. Have been married to my Thai wife since 2009 in Thailand and 2010 in Nez Zealand. I had 3 properties Houses and a business with a warehouse. I have given the business ant the w/h to my son, my main house and a summer place to my 2 grandkids I all in Nez Zealand.  So they are ok.

i have 2 properties houses in Thailand Khon Kaen in my wife's name, Nez mother scooter in wife's name. Have a 7 yr old Mazda BT-50 turbo in my name but the wife will have that. I have told her to sell,it because the 6. Mails in her family will be useing it all the time. I do not allow it.

she listens to me a lot as I was a business man doing well.

she runs her own little business buying clothes at the Pratunam Market and selling them outside the house in the village. We have had a good marrage and relationship we were 2 yrs together before we married. Any mony in my NZ bank accounts will go to my son. He married Phillapine girl 10 yrs with 2 great kids.

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, shaurene said:

i have 2 properties houses in Thailand Khon Kaen in my wife's name,

You don't own any properties in Thailand, they're hers not yours.

[RickTik]

When you "croak" ????, you can't take it with you. So what will happen? It will be a " free for all" for whatever assets you have in Thailand. Remember the ad Las Vegas put out a while back: "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas". Well, what is taken to Thailand, stays in Thailand. Just enjoy the time you still have on Earth and don't sweat it. 

[Wullie Mercer]

15 hours ago, Bundooman said:

Yes, I am now considering that - have thought about it in the past, but we have been happy as we are. Now, it takes on a more serious note and some discussion between us.

Do you know if it can it be registered in my own country, UK, without having to physically return? (That may appear to be a stupid question, but it would be interesting to know for sure). Thanks for your advice. 

Registered my marriage in UK at British Embassy Bangkok, this was back in 1988 though sure can still do.

[BobBKK]

I agree if you intend to leave to your partner marry her?  In fact I am going to marry a good Thai friend of mine (platonic) to ensure she gets my stuff etc.

[Bundooman]

17 hours ago, IssanMichael said:

I am Married to a Thai and 74 and in poor health, so i have sorted out the way forward when i die. I have joint accounts for the main money and the amount needed for the retirement visa i have organised a higher limit of withdrawal 500k, so that account can be cleared very quickly by the other half as an atm card is all thats needed. As far as the will is concerned i had a Thai will with an English copy signed by the local Village Chief and then i have done a will for the bits i have in the UK and organized it to be sorted out by my Son. I have attached the will in Thai and English for you, no lawyers needed. Please note a Thai will is not valid in the UK and visa versa. 

T13_Last_Will_and_Agreement (2).pdf 40.72 kB · 15 downloads 13_Last_Will_and_Testament.pdf 29.35 kB · 17 downloads

Thank you. This looks very useful. I note you are married. I am not. Is your Thai marriage registered in UK or was that not necessary? I am thinking presently that your path may be best for me, although I may consider whether we marry as a formality.

[Bundooman]

17 hours ago, nong38 said:

Tap on the envelope next to the bell, then look when the window opens for compose new message. type one to me Nong 38. I tried to send you a message but it appears you are not allowing messages in, maybe you need to look at your settings? I am not a techno wiz either but I am sure you will be able to figure it out.

OK nong38, I will check my settings and thanks for the tip - we learn something new every day. I didn't know how to do that. Will try to message you later today. and Thank you.

[Bundooman]

18 hours ago, jvs said:

That money will go to whomever is your heir,simple.

 

Thank you, that is the purpose of my post and,  - I hope that is the case, which is why I am asking for advice.

[Bundooman]

18 hours ago, suzannegoh said:

18 hours ago, Bundooman said:

My view too. I have a valid will for my UK assets. I believe that I have to make a will here in Thailand for my Thai assets, which means it somehow has to mirror, (both in English and Thai), my UK Will. 
 
My uneasiness surrounds how likely it is that a Lawyer, the police, the Bank or someone else, doesn't manage to purloin the lot instead of it all going to my girlfriend. We are both thinking the same way. Thank you.

The portion of your estate that's in Thailand will go through probate but if you make a will and specify your GF as being the Executor then she ultimately will be the one managing the estate rather than a third party. But if the GF won't be competent to handle the matter it might be better to specify someone else that you trust as the Executor.

That too is an option, suzannegoh, I do have access to a small number of Thai people of my acquaintance that I can trust to do so, It will certainly be one of my options once I have an overall picture and thank you. however,I don't think my gf. would be the person to do that, her personality is quietly charming but she is not confrontational in any aspect and I feel she is not strong enough in that respect to deal with some of the officials she may come across - whenever that occasion arises. But thank you for your advice.

[NCC1701A]

there is a afternoon market every Tuesday and Saturday in a Wat near my house.

 

i just assume my stuff will be there being sold by total strangers.

[Bundooman]

17 hours ago, jvs said:

Easier to just click on the username and then click message.

Brilliant - just checked that. Thanks a lot. I feel like a real dinosaur!

[Chongalulu]

On 3/22/2019 at 3:29 PM, Spaniel said:

I think if I were you I would marry the girlfriend.     

If the value of your estate exceeds £ 325k UK inheritance tax is @ 40% on the value above that - still payable even if you live in Thailand because you are uk domiciled. Transfers and inheritance between spouses are exempt. If you have any occupational pensions ( not state pension) most pay 50% to a surviving spouse for the remainder of their lives. You should after marrying inform them of that fact and nominate your spouse as benefactor.So This might be another reason to marry.

[Bundooman]

15 hours ago, khunPer said:

You will need two Last Wills, one in UK for your properties in UK, and following UK-law; and one in Thailand for any property here, following Thai law.

 

The Thai will will be brought to a court, you can appoint an executor yourself in the Will, otherwise the court will appoint one.

 

You can in details read about in the book "Thai Law for Foreigners"; there are several threads in Thaivisa Forum with information about Last Will and execution of it.

????

Thanks. The book is something I need to read. I'll check it out. I need to see it in writing. 

[Bundooman]

15 hours ago, Tomahawk21 said:

many of us are in the same position here it would be nicer if you have good info to make it public. thx

Once I have decided on a particular course of action, I will happily share those details with everyone. We will all need as much information as we can get. 

[Bundooman]

14 hours ago, JimGant said:

Doesn't have to mirror your UK Will. Just in the preamble mention that the following Will is exclusively for your assets in Thailand.

 

There are lengthy, and not very conclusive, threads on TV about Wills. A quick summary is this:

 

1. The lawyer mafia argues that all Wills need to go through probate, including Wills held by the Amphur (Amphur Wills). This is counterintuitive, since Amphur Wills were designed for the average villager, with average assets, and thus a bypass to a lengthy, and maybe costly, probate process.

     a.  So, even if you accomplished an Amphur Will, whether your banker, or the land office, would accept such without probate, is an unknown.

           - And, many Amphurs will NOT even do Wills for farangs.

 

2.  If, as the mafia says, your Will must suffer probate, this means several months of process, and we've heard that 50,000 baht is the possible standard fee.

     -  So, if the beneficiary is depending on your bank funds, be prepared for a delay -- and a financial hit.

 

3. There's a mixed report on what bank managers might do. They may accept an Amphur Will for your individual account; and for joint accounts, they may allow assets to be reassigned to the survivor.

     a. The following defies logic for us Westerners -- but apparently there have been cases where joint accounts have been frozen, pending probate procedures to free up the surviving 50%. 

 

     b. For an individual savings account, with 800k plus for retirement annual renewal at Immigration, you can put your GF or wife or partner as, essentially, a Power of Attorney, meaning he/she has access to your account. Officially, this is only while you're alive. But, when you're in a terminal coma, or before rigor mortis, have the account emptied out. You can do this online, or in person with the passbook (which includes your name as POA). I personally was told by our local bank manager that this would not be a problem and, in fact, is the norm for our small village. Legally? Who's to bitch, if your account had the POA as the sole beneficiary. The lawyers might bitch, about losing probate fees. But.......... (deleted).

 

     c.  Unfortunately, as I understand it, you can't put a POA name on a fixed account. Thus, you may have to decide whether or not to exclude some interest income, in favor of not having this fixed account go through probate (at, maybe, 50000 baht).

 

For the OP, I'd go ahead and draft a Will, in long hand, with the standard " I leave all my assets to my GF xxxxxx, including bank accounts xxxxx. Should she not survive me, I then leave xxxxx to xxxxxx. I designate my GF xxxxxxx as my executor, and as my 'next of kin.'

 

     a.  Make this Will an all inclusive document, meaning, add a page that outlines your desires as far as body disposal. Authorize your next of kin (which you've designated as your GF) to carry out your desires, which should include in the document, e.g, cremation, with ash disposal at option of NOK.

             -  The British Embassy, apparently, will need such authorization before they will allow your body to head for jolly ole England, or more likely, to the barbecue pit.

 

     b.  Just to add to the intrigue of your Will, add some living will sentences, like, you don't want to be kept alive by heroic means, don't keep me alive if there's minimal hope for recovery, and make my GF the decision maker if I should no longer be capable of making decisions.

 

You can write this all out in long hand, and it will be legitimate. But, probably best to then type it out, and then have two witnesses (not a beneficiary), with Thai ID numbers, to sign the typed document. If you're lucky, this is all you'll ever need: Certainly, as it's already in English, the Brit Embassy will accept it, and your last instructions, to release the body for cremation/whatever. How the bank accounts get settled is another matter. If the bank manager insists on probation, well, have a lawyer handy to translate your typed/witnessed Will into Thai -- then proceed on the probation procedure. Hopefully, you'll not need to go that far.

 

 

 

Wow! That was some reading and I need to think this whole post through very carefully. If that is all it needs, then that's fine. Thank you for setting it out for me. Yet another method to consider.  It does have simplicity written all over it as well.

[DividendGuy]

One point most people have missed is that (from one of the major English newspapers in Thailand) eleven financial companies and the biggest banks are currently testing the eKYC (know your client) apps. Once in operation supposedly by the end of the year, it will be impossible to have someone else use your bank cards or your bank account book to withdraw any money from your accounts. This is supposed to affect all accounts in Thailand once it comes into effect. Do a search and you can read the articles yourself.

[Bundooman]

3 hours ago, Wullie Mercer said:

Registered my marriage in UK at British Embassy Bangkok, this was back in 1988 though sure can still do.

That sounds promising, I will check it out. Thank you.

[Bundooman]

15 minutes ago, nchuckle said:

If the value of your estate exceeds £ 325k UK inheritance tax is @ 40% on the value above that - still payable even if you live in Thailand because you are uk domiciled. Transfers and inheritance between spouses are exempt. If you have any occupational pensions ( not state pension) most pay 50% to a surviving spouse for the remainder of their lives. You should after marrying inform them of that fact and nominate your spouse as benefactor.So This might be another reason to marry.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I'll check it out and thank you. I don't think I'm worth that much now. The house I built 5 years cago, I put in my gf & daughter's name only. The next move after my will contents are sorted out will be to persuade my gf to make her own will in favour of our daughter! Thank you.

[KittenKong]

30 minutes ago, DividendGuy said:

One point most people have missed is that (from one of the major English newspapers in Thailand) eleven financial companies and the biggest banks are currently testing the eKYC (know your client) apps. Once in operation supposedly by the end of the year, it will be impossible to have someone else use your bank cards or your bank account book to withdraw any money from your accounts. This is supposed to affect all accounts in Thailand once it comes into effect. Do a search and you can read the articles yourself.

The articles I have read indicate that eKYC only applies to opening new accounts, and not to making withdrawals from existing accounts.

[Naam]

38 minutes ago, DividendGuy said:

One point most people have missed is that (from one of the major English newspapers in Thailand) eleven financial companies and the biggest banks are currently testing the eKYC (know your client) apps. Once in operation supposedly by the end of the year, it will be impossible to have someone else use your bank cards or your bank account book to withdraw any money from your accounts. This is supposed to affect all accounts in Thailand once it comes into effect. Do a search and you can read the articles yourself.

nonsense!

[scorecard]

Just one point:

 

I'm aware of an American guy passed away in Pattaya 5 years back. His house was always full of underage urchin boys and when he died one of the boys took his passport.

 

The neighbors found the guy dead and called the police. Police made it known that the pasport had to be returned because of a regulation that it must be given to the US embassy in Bkk. A day later the passport was found in the letter box.

 

That's US not UK but perhap this is standard police procedure regardless of nationality? Needs checking.