Window Seat for Sleeping.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Never said I was a tax expert, but even the quote you supplied (from a valid source by the way) seems to specifically not apply to any "return or return information that can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer".  So this law fits perfectly with the other laws and regulations prohibiting the release of taxpayer information by the IRS. 

 

So the committee can request Trump's tax returns, but since they could directly be related to him they are excepted from being released by the IRS.

 

I will continue to comment on all sorts of issues without becoming a "legal expert" I don't have the money or space for all the legal references and case law, but I can comment in a reasonable way about issues without passing the bar exam or getting a law degree. Also since lawyers or often over ruled and lose cases doesn't make them any less of an expert. Even four of the highest judges in the USA on the supreme court are on the losing side of arguments very often. So it is possible that Trump loses on this one but I think it is as unlikely as some of his other actions like the ban on people entering from select countries with crap security procedures (a list that Obama developed by the way) which was upheld by the courts (eventually). 

Ok, you'll have to help me out with this one.  A law that very clearly says " shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request" does not really apply to what it specifically applies to?  Why not?

 

Obviously the returns could be directly related to him.  The law was written to directly apply to President Hardy.  Now it is being applied to a president who has violated established norms of transparency and financial disengagement from the office.  That is why the law was written and why the constitution gives Congress oversight responsibilities.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

 

Al Capone didn't file tax returns.

And yet he was convicted of tax evasion.  Not filing taxes, or filing intentionally incorrect taxes, is a crime.

[Srikcir]

53 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Therefore, both have violated the law and the Committee should request the US Attorney General enforce the law by holding Secretary of Treasury and the IRS Commissioner accountable for their criminal acts.

Should the AG also refuse to enforce the law, I wonder if any IRS officer who has access to the requested returns might qualify as a whistleblower that protects them from agency retaliation (ie., firing) to furnish the returns directly to the Committee who has a legal right to hold the returns?

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

And yet he was convicted of tax evasion.  Not filing taxes, or filing intentionally incorrect taxes, is a crime.

correct

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

Please, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

The law is very specific in allowing this.

Well, if you are correct then Trump will be turning over his tax information very shortly. However, if he doesn't turn is tax returns over in short order then maybe the law isn't as clear as you profess. I guess we will see.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Well, if you are correct then Trump will be turning over his tax information very shortly. However, if he doesn't turn is tax returns over in short order then maybe the law isn't as clear as you profess. I guess we will see.

No. If I am correct than by law the IRS is required to turn over Trump's personal and company tax records. But that does not mean the IRS will do that, after all their ultimate boss is Trump and he seems to be trying to avoid the IRS handing the information over.

 

Since a court case over this would be useless and painful for Trump, I presume his advisers will inform him of this, and in some time he will allow the IRS to hand it over.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

No. If I am correct than by law the IRS is required to turn over Trump's personal and company tax records. But that does not mean the IRS will do that, after all their ultimate boss is Trump and he seems to be trying to avoid the IRS handing the information over.

 

Since a court case over this would be useless and painful for Trump, I presume his advisers will inform him of this, and in some time he will allow the IRS to hand it over.

Unfortunately there are many examples of Trump ignoring advisers and using the courts to delay obvious conclusions. 

 

Trump may go by past experience and assume that by delaying the inevitable he can arrive at some kind of face saving out-of-court agreement agreement.  That's what he did in the Trump University law suits.  Obviously his current circumstances are totally different, but I don't think Trump understands that.

[Redline]

On 4/11/2019 at 1:54 PM, Boon Mee said:

Trump is never going to produce his tax returns so those who continue to look for something / anything to use to *get* Trump need to pound sand. 

Lock him up!!!

[Redline]

8 hours ago, stevenl said:

No. If I am correct than by law the IRS is required to turn over Trump's personal and company tax records. But that does not mean the IRS will do that, after all their ultimate boss is Trump and he seems to be trying to avoid the IRS handing the information over.

 

Since a court case over this would be useless and painful for Trump, I presume his advisers will inform him of this, and in some time he will allow the IRS to hand it over.

The ultimate boss has s not trump, although everyone seems to be brainwashed this falsehood 

[Prissana Pescud]

The one way for Mr Trump to deflate the attempt to show him as a huge tax dodger is to show the tax papers.

 

It is not going to happen for the obvious reasons. 

Yay, go USA

[bristolboy]

Here, by the way, is the relevant clause in the IRS tax code vis a vis the IRS and the Ways and Means Committee. It's section 6103(f) on page 3163

(f)Disclosure to Committees of Congress

(1)Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation

Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title26/pdf/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleF-chap61-subchapB-sec6103.pdf

 

[direction BANGKOK]

The govt really needs to concentrate on something that will actually help the people. 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, direction BANGKOK said:

The govt really needs to concentrate on something that will actually help the people. 

Like oversight of a President who is more interested in his own interests than in the future of the country.

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Here, by the way, is the relevant clause in the IRS tax code vis a vis the IRS and the Ways and Means Committee. It's section 6103(f) on page 3163

(f)Disclosure to Committees of Congress

(1)Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation

Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2011-title26/pdf/USCODE-2011-title26-subtitleF-chap61-subchapB-sec6103.pdf

 

You might ask yourself why the words "except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer" are included in the alleged relevant clause of the IRS tax code? Maybe the tax lawyers who wrote the clause were confused or didn't know the English language very well. Lawyer often don't use precise language when drafting laws and regulations (bold sarcasm font applies).

 

Another interesting passage is "unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure". Those IRS tax lawyers must be very confused to write this clause in this manner.

[bristolboy]

Just now, Ahab said:

You might ask yourself why the words "except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer" are included in the alleged relevant clause of the IRS tax code? Maybe the tax lawyers who wrote the clause were confused or didn't know the English language very well. Lawyer often don't use precise language when drafting laws and regulations (bold sarcasm font applies).

 

Another interesting passage is "unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure". Those IRS tax lawyers must be very confused to write this clause in this manner.

First alone in your interpretation of the law, and now alone in your confusion. Lonely much?

Edited April 15, 2019 by bristolboy

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You might ask yourself why the words "except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer" are included in the alleged relevant clause of the IRS tax code? Maybe the tax lawyers who wrote the clause were confused or didn't know the English language very well. Lawyer often don't use precise language when drafting laws and regulations (bold sarcasm font applies).

 

Another interesting passage is "unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure". Those IRS tax lawyers must be very confused to write this clause in this manner.

Those words are included in the tax law to protect the individual, so his taxes will not be visible public but only to the committee members.

But those words clearly state the individual's records shall be handed over to the committee.

[candide]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

You might ask yourself why the words "except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer" are included in the alleged relevant clause of the IRS tax code? Maybe the tax lawyers who wrote the clause were confused or didn't know the English language very well. Lawyer often don't use precise language when drafting laws and regulations (bold sarcasm font applies).

 

Another interesting passage is "unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure". Those IRS tax lawyers must be very confused to write this clause in this manner.

Every time you cite this law you intentionally forget one part of the sentence: "only when sitting in closed executive session". ????

[candide]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

 

Ooops! Double posting!

Edited April 15, 2019 by candide