UK parliament very likely to consider new Brexit referendum - Hammond

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I'm not an MP. 

 

1st referendum - remain win. 2nd referendum - Brexit win. Best of three to settle it. It's the democratic way.

Fair do's. Next one due in 2057. See you at the poll.. ????

[Spidey]

32 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Spidey,  As an Honourable Member of parliament, as you must be by "Loiner" telling us you are blocking it in parliament,  quite what do you think you are doing in Pattaya ? ???? You havn't taken Theresa May away with you for a dirty Easter break ? If so as we discussed yesterday, bet she is the one that rides on top - can you confirm ?????

No chance of Theresa doing the cowboy! Ed Balls' missus is a real spinner though.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

You can have your third referendum after we've had our second, that's how democracy works.

What's the point of leaving only to rejoin after the next referendum? Waste of money.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Fair do's. Next one due in 2057. See you at the poll.. ????

We've had this argument before. There's no precedent or logic in having equal gaps between referendums.....unless you're a Brexiteer.

 

Are all general elections equally spaced apart?

[stephenterry]

Brexit is a folly, but the dividing of the UK and abject failure of the Old Etonians sitting on the Tory front bench to reach any agreement on the way forward has galvanised huge people protests aimed fairly and squarely at the government and parliament for ignoring their views, not only on Brexit but more importantly Climate change and pollution of the ocean life by discarded plastic garbage.

 

Farage will open the door for Labour, and at least some sanity will prevail, even though the fence-sitting Corbyn is not the PM I would vote for. Proportional representation is the true democratic way forward.

 

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

We've had this argument before. There's no precedent or logic in having equal gaps between referendums.....unless you're a Brexiteer.

 

Are all general elections equally spaced apart?

Nominally yes.

Edited April 24, 2019 by nauseus

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Nominally yes.

Maximum - 5 years. Shortest - 6 months. 3 years between referendums sounds reasonable to me, particularly as there's no light at the end of the parliamentary tunnel.

 

Let the people decide!

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Spidey

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Maximum - 5 years. Shortest - 6 months. 3 years between referendums sounds reasonable to me, particularly as there's no light at the end of the parliamentary tunnel.

 

Let the people decide!

 

 

You asked if GE's were equally spaced apart. The frequency of GE's is higher than for referendums on EU membership. So we have to use the historical precedent and so the next EU referendum has to be 2057! The people decided already.

Edited April 24, 2019 by nauseus

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

You asked if GE's were equally spaced apart. The frequency of GE's is higher than for referendums on EU membership. So we have to use the historical precedent and so the next EU referendum has to be 2057!

As there has only been 1 before 2016, there is no historical precedent. If I remember my statistics from my higher maths days, you need at least 3 data points to form a series.

[transam]

11 minutes ago, Spidey said:

As there has only been 1 before 2016, there is no historical precedent. If I remember my statistics from my higher maths days, you need at least 3 data points to form a series.

In that case why do we have the same UK gov, they didn't win...? 

[nauseus]

17 minutes ago, Spidey said:

As there has only been 1 before 2016, there is no historical precedent. If I remember my statistics from my higher maths days, you need at least 3 data points to form a series.

This is the only established referendum gap so we'll just have to work with it. Higher? maths not required.

[Spidey]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

This is the only established referendum gap so we'll just have to work with it. Higher? maths not required.

Why do we have to work with that? 2 data points doesn't establish anything. Make it 3 years and set a precedent. I don't think either of us would want to wait 40 years to resolve this mess.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Spidey

[Loiner]

I'm not an MP. 
 
1st referendum - remain win. 2nd referendum - Brexit win. Best of three to settle it. It's the democratic way.

I never said you were.

No, you had 43 years of EU, now we have our turn of No EU as the referendum decided. That’s the only democratic way, the British way not the EU way.

[transam]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Maximum - 5 years. Shortest - 6 months. 3 years between referendums sounds reasonable to me, particularly as there's no light at the end of the parliamentary tunnel.

 

Let the people decide!

 

 

They did.....????

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

Maximum - 5 years. Shortest - 6 months. 3 years between referendums sounds reasonable to me, particularly as there's no light at the end of the parliamentary tunnel

Let the people decide!

 

 

I'm inclined to agree, but it depends on the question asked.....

 

1) Eu/May deal

 

2) Leave immediately

 

I'd be inclined to agree, even though the fear mongering has been continuous ☹️.

 

Nonetheless, the appalling eu/may deal is also well known nowadays, so this vote would be better than the endless prevarication/duplicity of our MPs.....

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm inclined to agree, but it depends on the question asked.....

 

1) Eu/May deal

 

2) Leave immediately

 

I'd be inclined to agree, even though the fear mongering has been continuous ☹️.

 

Nonetheless, the appalling eu/may deal is also well known nowadays, so this vote would be better than the endless prevarication/duplicity of our MPs.....

 

Leave immediately equates to no deal Brexit, already ruled out and an absolute nightmare for UK. Hard border, no trade deals, no customs union etc.

 

May's deal is the obvious one for the vote, I prefer Corbyn's deal obviously but thought that Ken Clark's deal was an acceptable compromise. Choose 1 and put it up against remain.

 

The current thinking is that the vote would go to remain, which is why, of course, Brexiteers are so against another referendum.

[Spidey]

29 minutes ago, Loiner said:

I never said you were.

No, you had 43 years of EU, now we have our turn of No EU as the referendum decided. That’s the only democratic way, the British way not the EU way.

Sorry forgot you were a jingoist. But you are wrong about me, I haven't had 40 years of the EU. I voted leave in 1975. As I lost that one, only fair to let me have this one.

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Leave immediately equates to no deal Brexit, already ruled out and an absolute nightmare for UK. Hard border, no trade deals, no customs union etc.

 

May's deal is the obvious one for the vote, I prefer Corbyn's deal obviously but thought that Ken Clark's deal was an acceptable compromise. Choose 1 and put it up against remain.

 

The current thinking is that the vote would go to remain, which is why, of course, Brexiteers are so against another referendum.

Yes, leave immediately equates to no deal - ruled out by self-serving MPs, who ignore the fact that this leaves the uk with no negotiating position at all!

 

I've already said that at this point, we probably need another referendum - based on the obvious options:-

 

a) leave immediately

 

b) accept the eu/may 'deal'.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, leave immediately equates to no deal - ruled out by self-serving MPs, who ignore the fact that this leaves the uk with no negotiating position at all!

 

I've already said that at this point, we probably need another referendum - based on the obvious options:-

 

a) leave immediately

 

b) accept the eu/may 'deal'.

As no deal isn't an option there would only be one box on the ballot paper. Sounds more like a communist dictatorship than democracy. Why exclude half of the electorate? May's deal or remain. What's your problem? By your reckoning May's deal would win by a landslide anyway.

[bomber]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

Brexit is a folly, but the dividing of the UK and abject failure of the Old Etonians sitting on the Tory front bench to reach any agreement on the way forward has galvanised huge people protests aimed fairly and squarely at the government and parliament for ignoring their views, not only on Brexit but more importantly Climate change and pollution of the ocean life by discarded plastic garbage.

 

Farage will open the door for Labour, and at least some sanity will prevail, even though the fence-sitting Corbyn is not the PM I would vote for. Proportional representation is the true democratic way forward.

 

couldnt agree more,these so called patriotic folks wont be laffing when IRA supporting JC gets the majority to form a govt at the next GE thanks to brexit,cheers lads enjoy yourselves in the UK

[transam]

5 minutes ago, bomber said:

couldnt agree more,these so called patriotic folks wont be laffing when IRA supporting JC gets the majority to form a govt at the next GE thanks to brexit,cheers lads enjoy yourselves in the UK

You've had three beers.....You little rascal you.....????

[Loiner]

Sorry forgot you were a jingoist. But you are wrong about me, I haven't had 40 years of the EU. I voted leave in 1975. As I lost that one, only fair to let me have this one.

Jingoist, Nationalist and proud patriot. Funny how your types always think that is an insult, isn’t it?
No, it’s only fair that the majority have it. Just no cricket otherwise old boy.

[bomber]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

You've had three beers.....You little rascal you.....????

yes about 3 days ago,enjoy comrade corbyn ???????? 

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, Loiner said:

- the other referendum you don’t like the result of.

You continually show yourself up with the dogmatism, I have said many times I would never have voted for Alex Salmond's plan but the brexiteer mental block kicks in.

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, transam said:

Did we get over the cost of WW2 and prosper...?

Not until post 1973. Now remind me what happened that year.

 

1966
On 20th July, 1966, the Prime Minister decided, for no economic reason as far as I can tell, to impose a £50 limit on the travel allowance for British citizens abroad. That £50 was computed thus. The total number of British citizens travelling outside the sterling area was divided into the aggregation of expenditure and it was decided that the average expenditure per person was a trifle less than £50. The Chancellor therefore decided on a £50 limit.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1967/jun/19/overseas-travel-allowance

1967
Wilson defends 'pound in your pocket'
The Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, has defended his decision to devalue the pound saying it will tackle the "root cause" of Britain's economic problems.
The government announced last night it was lowering the exchange rate so the pound is now worth $2.40, down from $2.80, a cut of just over 14%.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_3208000/3208396.stm

1968
The Black Dwarf was launched in June 1968 under Tariq Ali's editorship, with several other IMG members on its editorial board. Its creative and pluralist nature attracted a number of new activists to the group: John Lennon was friendly to the organisation.
While IMG members largely remained in the Labour party, including Charlie van Gelderen, International marked a break from 'deep entrism'. Its first issue claimed that "The Week was brought out in the expectation that a mass left would arise in the Labour party once labour was in power. [Its] main function was that of an organiser and co-ordinator [...] but this will be a by-product of the main function of International: the creation of a firm marxist core in the labour movement." Its campaigning was focussed on broader initiatives such as the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign and Russell Tribunal, in which Ernie Tate was prominent and in which the RSL and Socialist Labour League did not work, the Institute for Workers' Control and the Revolutionary Socialist Students Front, in which Peter Gowan and Murray Smith were active. The agitational work of The Week was carried on in the The Black Dwarf and in Socialist Woman, launched in 1969. The Group gained some public prominence when Tariq Ali, who had joined in April 1968, was widely publicised in the media as a leader of protests against the Vietnam War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Marxist_Group

1969
Troubles in Ireland escalate
During the riots, on 13 August, Taoiseach Jack Lynch made a television address. He condemned the RUC and said that the Irish Government "can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse". He called for a United Nations peacekeeping force to be deployed and said that Irish Army field hospitals were being set up at the border in County Donegal near Derry. Lynch added that Irish re-unification would be the only permanent solution. Some interpreted the speech as a threat of military intervention.[78] After the riots, Lynch ordered the Irish Army to plan for a possible humanitarian intervention in Northern Ireland. The plan, Exercise Armageddon, was rejected and remained classified for thirty years.
On 14–15 August, British troops were deployed in Derry and Belfast to restore order,[80] but did not try to enter the Bogside, bringing a temporary end to the riots. Eight people had been shot dead, more than 750 had been injured (including 133 who suffered gunshot wounds) and more than 400 homes and businesses had been destroyed (83% Catholic-owned). 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

1970
The docks strike of 1970 was a major industrial action by dockers in the United Kingdom that raised fears of food shortages and led to a proclamation of a state of emergency by Queen Elizabeth II.
Dockers struck for a pay rise of £11 per week (£109 at 2003 prices) on 15 July 1970 and around 47,000 dockers were involved nationally. The strike seriously cut imports and exports and cost the British economy between £50 and £100 million (£495 and 990 million at 2003 prices). The British Army were stood by to protect food supplies but most dockers agreed to handle perishable goods and the strike was largely peaceful. The dockers lost £4 million (£40 million at 2003 prices) in wages.
A court of inquiry was convened under Lord Pearson and proposed an average 7% increase in pay. Though this was at first rejected by the dockers, it was ultimately accepted on 30 July.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docks_strike_of_1970

19 May – The government made a £20 million loan available to help save the financially troubled luxury car and aircraft engine manufacturer Rolls Royce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_in_the_United_Kingdom

1971
The 1971 United Kingdom postal workers strike was a strike in the United Kingdom staged by postal workers between January and March 1971.
The strike was Britain's first national postal strike and began after postal workers demanded a pay rise of 15-20% then walked out after Post Office managers made a lower offer. The strike began on 20 January and lasted for seven weeks, finally ending with an agreement on Thursday 4 March. After voting over the weekend, the strikers returned to work on Monday 8 March 1971. The strike overlapped with the introduction of decimal currency in the U.K.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_United_Kingdom_postal_workers_strike

4 February – Rolls-Royce went bankrupt and was nationalised.
1 March – An estimated 120,000 to 250,000 "kill the bill" protesters went on strike against the 1971 Industrial Relations Act in London.
19 April – Unemployment reached a post-Second World War high of nearly 815,000.
24 June – The EEC agreed terms for Britain's proposed membership and it was hoped that the nation will join the EEC next year.
28 October: The House of Commons voted in favour of joining the EEC by a vote of 356-244.
Undated:Inflation stood at a 30-year high of 8.6%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_in_the_United_Kingdom

1972
9 January – The National Union of Mineworkers held a strike ballot in which 58.8% voted in favour. Coal miners begin a strike which lasts for seven weeks, including picketing of Saltley coke depot in Birmingham.
20 January – Unemployment exceeded 1,000,000 for the first time since the 1930s-almost double the 582,000 who were unemployed when Edward Heath's Conservative government came to power less than two years ago.
9 February – A State of emergency was declared as a result of the miners' strike.
23 June – The Chancellor of the Exchequer Anthony Barber announced a decision to float the Pound.
28 July – A strike by thousands of dockers led to the government announcing a state of emergency on 4 August.
6 November – The government introduced price and pay freezes to counter inflation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_in_the_United_Kingdom

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, Spidey said:

What's the point of leaving only to rejoin after the next referendum? Waste of money.

Because a brexiteer couldn't possibly consider a second opinion until after the amputation.

[welovesundaysatspace]

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Because a brexiteer couldn't possibly consider a second opinion until after the amputation.

This would require an ability Brexiteers don’t have: the ability to learn. They will always claim that their pink unicorns exist, it would just require the one Messiah the EU and the establishment are hiding from them. So don’t believe an amputation would help. They’ll happily give the other leg because their leaders whispered the promising land waits. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by welovesundaysatspace

[nauseus]

54 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

This would require an ability Brexiteers don’t have: the ability to learn. They will always claim that their pink unicorns exist, it would just require the one Messiah the EU and the establishment are hiding from them. So don’t believe an amputation would help. They’ll happily give the other leg because their leaders whispered the promising land waits. 

 

 

Please send us more knowledge, Oh Mighty Space.

[CG1 Blue]

11 hours ago, Spidey said:

11 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, leave immediately equates to no deal - ruled out by self-serving MPs, who ignore the fact that this leaves the uk with no negotiating position at all!

 

I've already said that at this point, we probably need another referendum - based on the obvious options:-

 

a) leave immediately

 

b) accept the eu/may 'deal'.

As no deal isn't an option there would only be one box on the ballot paper. Sounds more like a communist dictatorship than democracy. Why exclude half of the electorate? May's deal or remain. What's your problem? By your reckoning May's deal would win by a landslide anyway.

No deal is only not an option because MPs blocked it.  If the decision is put back to the people, then no deal is back on the table. 

 

And DD's two options don't exclude half the electorate.  Those who want to remain in the EU can vote for the EU/May's deal once Labour's customs union has been built into it. Remainers have spent the past 3 years weakening our negotiating hand, so they can have that crappy deal as their reward ????

[Loiner]

No deal is only not an option because MPs blocked it.  If the decision is put back to the people, then no deal is back on the table. 
 

In the unlikely event of another referendum, it’s clear the people would vote for No Deal. That’s why the establishment won’t allow another referendum, no matter what the Remainers wail for.
In Parliament a No Deal option is always possible. It’s not blocked forever. The MPs didn’t originally vote for a deal, only changing their minds after legalising a couple of Withdrawal Acts. For many, especially LAB MPs, it is all just political game play. Now that the new Brexit Party threatens their seats, a good number could change their minds back again.
Isn’t that the democratic mind-changing that Remainers prefer?