Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

12 minutes ago, sirineou said:

So we went full circle only to arrive where we started. 

What you describe is Exactly how everyone else rationalise their beliefs. 

according to the TED talk that we are talking about. Those beliefs are based on our incomplete information ,supported on the teachings of others whose beliefs  are also the product of incomplete information. they themselves having formed their beliefs from the teachings of others with incomplete information. 

IMO the only way to verify beliefs is the Scientific process , Replicable and subject to peer review.  And when I say "Peer I don't mean only others who  engage in meditation but all those involved in the Cognitive sciences to defend against   conformational bias .

Of course ...my, your, everybody's belief system is formed in two ways: by our experiences, inferences and deductions, and by accepting what others tell us to be true. No one escapes from that.
How exactly do you verify experiences through the scientific process?
And while you're at it, tell me again how my logic is flawed.

At least I sit down and verify by myself if what others say about reality is true or not. I don't just read a science book or a religious book and take their words for granted.


 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Sunmaster

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Please watch this one , and get into the habit of watching TED talks, other than telepathy is a way of getting into other people's minds. And TED hosts some of the greatest minds IMO.

If you wait until they come and talk to you " like sitting in a room and having a chat." I am afraid you will wait along time ,and will be limited to only the ones willing to do so, 

The video is only 15 min long , you have invested much more time listening to idiots like me, why not invest 15 more minutes?

I am sitting here and thinking about what "ted talks" did to you, and i've come to the conclusion that i'm not going to waste 15 minutes. I'd rather look at the sky.

When you say "the greatest minds" i cannot help but to feel sorry for the apparent low esteem you seem to have for yourself.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

I am sitting here and thinking about what "ted talks" did to you, and i've come to the conclusion that i'm not going to waste 15 minutes. I'd rather look at the sky.

When you say "the greatest minds" i cannot help but to feel sorry for the apparent low esteem you seem to have for yourself.

Not sure what makes my "low esteem" so apparent to you. But thanks for your concern

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

1 hour ago, OmegaRacer said:

I think I did and I agree with sunmaster.
Did you read what I wrote about meditation?? I clearly stated that what you encounter on the inner journey is replicable and that the peer review is done by other practitioners and especially teachers. 
If that weren't the case, there would be no yoga system at all, but just a formless blob of individual experiences with nothing in common.

Amd there was a study whose results were replicated and subjected to peer review that confirmed the validity of the beliefs of people who meditate. 

To those confused by this post there is supposed to be a Question Mark at the end of the above sentence.  

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

Not sure what makes my "low esteem" so apparent to you. But thanks for your concern

Well. With respect, at our age we have absorbed lots of knowledge, and spending time connecting the dots is 1000s time better than watching tv shows imho.

I apologise if my remarks offend you, that's not my aim.

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well. With respect, at our age we have absorbed lots of knowledge, and spending time connecting the dots is 1000s time better than watching tv shows imho.

I apologise if my remarks offend you, that's not my aim.

It is not a "TV Show" no ladyboys or midgets involved. It is a seminar. But if you have learned all that you need and rather watch the sky as you said, good for you, You are a better man than me. 

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, sirineou said:

It is not a "TV Show" no ladyboys or midgets involved. It is a seminar. But if you have learned all that you need and rather watch the sky as you said, good for you, You are a better man than me. 

Yes, to be honest i think i learned perhaps too much, i wonder if i'll have enough time to connect the dots before i kick the bucket.

i am not concerned about who is the better man, i am just concerned about my own experience.

[sirineou]

32 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Yes, to be honest i think i learned perhaps too much, i wonder if i'll have enough time to connect the dots before i kick the bucket.

i am not concerned about who is the better man, i am just concerned about my own experience.

are you sure you have enough dots? or will you be getting an incomplete picture. 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

are you sure you have enough dots? or will you be getting an incomplete picture. 

Not sure of anything, but i'm confident that the Spirit has been giving me the weight that i'm able to carry.

[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Not sure of anything, but i'm confident that the Spirit has been giving me the weight that i'm able to carry.

So it is raining hard and the waters are rising , man prays to god to save him,

Police comes and tells the man to evacuate because the area will flood.

 Man refuses to go and says 'God will save me" 

Water rise to the first floor and rescuers come with a boat

 Man refuses to go and says 'God will save me" 

Water is to the roof, and rescuers come with a helicopter

  Man refuses to go and says 'God will save me" 

Man drowns and upon arrival at the pearly gates meets God and ask's him

I believed in you , why did you not save me.

To which God replies.

First I send you the police, but you did not go. then I send you a boat but you refused, I even went as far as to send you a Helicopter...........................

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by sirineou
typo

[sirineou]

12 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Not sure of anything, but i'm confident that the Spirit has been giving me the weight that i'm able to carry.

If you are not sure of anything how are you confident of that?

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

So it is raining hard and the waters are rising , man prays to god to save him,

Police comes and tells the man to evacuate because the area will flood.

 Man refuses to go and says 'God will save me" 

Water rise to the first floor and rescuers come with a boat

 Man refuses to go and says 'God will save me" 

Water is to the roof, and rescuers come with a helicopter

  Man refuses to go and says 'God will save me" 

Man drowns and upon arrival at the pearly gates meets God and ask's him

I believed in you , why did you not save me.

To which God replies.

First I send you the police, but you did not go. then I send you a boat but you refused, I even went as far as to send you a Helicopter...........................

 

Lol, that's a good one ! (i read that before)

In fact, i trust people to be images of God, except when they behave in an ungodly way, of course ????

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

If you are not sure of anything how are you confident of that?

Anything except that ????

[sirineou]

9 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Anything except that ????

just be careful you are not a slacker. God doesn't like slackers!

He does not like slackers and Gays, he used to not like people that eat shrimp also, but they really seem to like shrimp so he forgot about that one.   

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

just be careful you are not a slacker. God doesn't like slackers!

He does not like slackers and Gays, he used to not like people that eat shrimp also, but they really seem to like shrimp so he forgot about that one.   

Not sure how much of a slacker i am, yeah, i skipped the military and a few other things... but you seem to know a lot of things about God for a person who doesn't believe in his existence 

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Not sure how much of a slacker i am, yeah, i skipped the military and a few other things... but you seem to know a lot of things about God for a person who doesn't believe in his existence 

How can you not believe in something you dont know alot off?

I don't believe in a biblical or  a God with a personal interest in me or humans above all else.  What remains if you want to call God for lack of a better term , I don't mind, 

The only thing I mind about it is that the term  carries  a lot of baggage and it is all different depending on who you talk to, so difficult to even agree what we are talking about. 

Watch that TED  talk, I promise you, you will not regret it.  It has nothing to do with god.

Edited March 1, 2020 by sirineou

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

How can you not believe in something you dont know alot off?

I have to admit i am not intelligent enough to understand this sentence.

 

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I don't believe in a biblical or  a God with a personal interest in me or humans above all else.  What remains if you want to call God for lack of a better term , I don't mind, 

I am quite skeptical in general, but i believe there are many superior beings, even on this planet, and one (non-born) intelligent design or consciousness.

 

8 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Watch that TED  talk, I promise you, you will not regret it.  It has nothing to do with god.

If you were here with a bottle of decent wine, you would have some chance to convince me ????

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Of course ...my, your, everybody's belief system is formed in two ways: by our experiences, inferences and deductions, and by accepting what others tell us to be true. No one escapes from that.
How exactly do you verify experiences through the scientific process?
And while you're at it, tell me again how my logic is flawed.

At least I sit down and verify by myself if what others say about reality is true or not. I don't just read a science book or a religious book and take their words for granted.


 

@sirineou

I'm still waiting for your answer....

You said only the scientific method can verify and validate belief systems. So, please tell me how that works with experiences.

Thanks

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I have to admit i am not intelligent enough to understand this sentence.

 

I am quite skeptical in general, but i believe there are many superior beings, even on this planet, and one (non-born) intelligent design or consciousness.

 

If you were here with a bottle of decent wine, you would have some chance to convince me ????

 "If you were here with a bottle of decent wine, you would have some chance to convince me "

Now you're talking my language. If i ever find myself in your neighborhood I might take you up. I am in the US now, we should be preparing to  come to Thailand at this time as we do every year, (Our home is in Khon Kaen) But we have suspended plans until we have a better handle on what this Virus thing will do. I hope it gets shorted out soon because I miss ThaIland.   

 

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

@sirineou

I'm still waiting for your answer....

You said only the scientific method can verify and validate belief systems. So, please tell me how that works with experiences.

Thanks

It is called the "Scientific" method but it is really the logical method. 

You have an experience, you wander what caused such experience, you develop a theory. 

 then you test such theory via experimentation, you publish the theory and the results of your experimentation, others try to duplicate those results (they can't just take your word for it)  If they are successful then your theory is proven and you win the Nobel prize. You then collect the Million Dollar  price, I become your best friend and help you spend it. 

Easy peasy lemon squeezy 

Call me.

Edited March 1, 2020 by sirineou

[Elad]

17 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

The big bang theory for example, it's more nonsensical than adoring the fire, the trees, or dancing barefoot on the full moon nights.

If you'd have said a 120 years ago then the whole world would've agreed with you, back then scientists hated the Big Bang theory and any physicist that proposed the idea of the Big Bang theory was ridiculed, laughed at and they were never taken seriously in the scientific community. Any scientist working on the theory kept it to themselves... But then during the 20th century evidence that supports the theory started to accumulate, much of this evidence came as a surprise, they weren't even looking for it. Today, the evidence is so overwhelming that the most hated theory by scientists has become their best current model for how the universe began.  

[Tippaporn]

2 hours ago, Elad said:

If you'd have said a 120 years ago then the whole world would've agreed with you, back then scientists hated the Big Bang theory and any physicist that proposed the idea of the Big Bang theory was ridiculed, laughed at and they were never taken seriously in the scientific community. Any scientist working on the theory kept it to themselves... But then during the 20th century evidence that supports the theory started to accumulate, much of this evidence came as a surprise, they weren't even looking for it. Today, the evidence is so overwhelming that the most hated theory by scientists has become their best current model for how the universe began.  

And it's still riddled with holes big enough to drive a universe through.  Just as new evidence was discovered to support the inane theory perhaps in another 120 years new evidence will emerge to toss it into the dustbin of demolished theories history.

 

At best it's a standalone theory which does not at all tie together the whole.

[Tippaporn]

22 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

How many scientific theories are taken as fact?  Climate change, for instance.  Sure has a lot of people believing in it as fact.  Sure has a lot of scientists claiming it's fact.  How about the Big Bang?  Theory, but generally accepted as fact.  Spoken about as fact.  How about scientific theories about the human mind?  Treated as theories or fact?

 

From the entirety of my post you picked out only that which you felt you could argue best.  You address so little of it.  Stay safe.

You laughed at my post, UbonThai, and I believe that is the only response you are capable of.  Actually addressing it?  Now it's my turn to laugh.

[Sunmaster]

6 hours ago, sirineou said:

It is called the "Scientific" method but it is really the logical method. 

You have an experience, you wander what caused such experience, you develop a theory. 

 then you test such theory via experimentation, you publish the theory and the results of your experimentation, others try to duplicate those results (they can't just take your word for it)  If they are successful then your theory is proven and you win the Nobel prize. You then collect the Million Dollar  price, I become your best friend and help you spend it. 

Easy peasy lemon squeezy 

Call me.

Erm... I think your mind is showing signs of fatigue. ????

It was YOU who said that the scientific method is the only way you can verify and validate belief systems, not me. But since belief systems are ALSO made up of those messy subjective experiences, I asked you how you would go on about it.

You say "easy peasy....the same method they use for anything else". Hmmm, I'm left to wonder why you or any other brilliant scientist haven't won the Nobel prize yet.

Actually no, I'm not wondering at all. ????

 

But just in case, if you do win the 1 million prize, don't forget the one who inspired you. ????

Edited March 2, 2020 by Sunmaster

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/28/2020 at 9:46 PM, canuckamuck said:

It is my opinion that Hell is a place in creation that God has removed Himself from. In order for there to be a place separate from him. This is done to allow people the choice to be separate from God as an aspect of their free will. Hell is separation form God, not necessarily a place.

I don't believe that God occupies a "space". I believe that God is outside time and physical space. To define God with "space" would assign human qualities to God and that is ridiculous, IMO.

I agree that hell is something seperate from God. While I'd like hell to exist for Stalin, Hitler, Mao etc, I think such is so far below the notice of the creator that it makes no difference where we end up how bad we are. It'd be like punishing cats for killing birds.

 

I haven't been on here a while because TVF has been so awful to use, but although I thought the thread was dead a while back, it's flourishing still. Ivor must be happy.

[thaibeachlovers]

25 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

And it's still riddled with holes big enough to drive a universe through.  Just as new evidence was discovered to support the inane theory perhaps in another 120 years new evidence will emerge to toss it into the dustbin of demolished theories history.

 

At best it's a standalone theory which does not at all tie together the whole.

Don't know why you scorn it so. Seems logical that all the matter that makes up the universe emerged from a singular point and expanded outwards, forming galaxies as it went. Eventually everything falls into a black hole and is reborn as another universe in another big bang, for ever and ever and ever.

[Sunmaster]

15 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Erm... I think your mind is showing signs of fatigue. ????

It was YOU who said that the scientific method is the only way you can verify and validate belief systems, not me. But since belief systems are ALSO made up of those messy subjective experiences, I asked you how you would go on about it.

You say "easy peasy....the same method they use for anything else". Hmmm, I'm left to wonder why you or any other brilliant scientist haven't won the Nobel prize yet.

Actually no, I'm not wondering at all. ????

 

But just in case, if you do win the 1 million prize, don't forget the one who inspired you. ????

Furthermore, and please correct me if I'm wrong @sirineou, if the scientific method is NOT able to verify and validate all subjective experiences that make up belief systems, then we are left with 2 choices:

1) subjective experiences don't exist and can therefore not be measured by through the scientific method 

2) subjective experiences do exist, but can not be measured through the scientific method 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, sirineou said:

I don't believe in a biblical or  a God with a personal interest in me or humans above all else.  What remains if you want to call God for lack of a better term , I don't mind, 

Seems we agree on "God" then.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Sunmaster said:

2) subjective experiences do exist, but can not be measured through the scientific method 

That's the only option that makes sense, and science can NOT measure a subjective experience.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

I'd rather look at the sky.

To those that are open to the spiritual, the sky is all the "proof" we need that God exists. I went through most of my life not even thinking about the sky, but now it's a temple of wonder. I'm not saying the sky is God, but that God gave me the ability to see the beauty in the sky, and in all nature.

I've yet to see a herd of cows admiring a sunset.