Do you believe in God and why

[Sunmaster]

5 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

Because it has consequences in the real world.

 

If people didn't mix spiritual feelings with the objective, shared space called planet earth, it might be fine, but the fact is they clash in significant ways.

 

The anti-science attitude of many religious people is evident, even in this forum. As I said, that has consequences, as *some* religious believers refuse to accept the scientific consensus on issues that effect all of us - climate change, for instance.

 

Believe what you like, but accept that scientists, by and large, are experts in their respective fields.

I get what you mean. Sometimes I worry as well when people in important positions display their lack of spirituality. 

But I don't think there are many (if any) "anti-science" people here. I have no problem accepting that scientists can be experts in their respective fields. What I do not accept (and I think many others here), is when those science experts (or the "hardcore science believers") voice their opinions in matters that are not their expertise, and then expect praise for enlightening the poor bronze-age fools.

You wouldn't give any credence to an old swami trying to lecture a scientist on subatomic fields, would you?
In the same way, we find it very arrogant when someone tries to use science to explain away spiritual matters.

So, in the same vein, we just want you to accept that there are people who are experts in the spiritual field.

Seems fair to me, don't you agree?

[teatime101]

20 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

someone tries to use science to explain away spiritual matters.

This just comes down to what we mean by things being subjective or objective. In any 'shared space' objective standards must take precedence. In the privacy of your personal or inner space you can believe whatever you like.

 

 

[Sunmaster]

5 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

This just comes down to what we mean by things being subjective or objective. In any 'shared space' objective standards must take precedence. In the privacy of your personal or inner space you can believe whatever you like.

 

 

Can 2 people discuss a painting? They have 2 subjective opinions about it, the painting affects them differently, yet they can talk about their impressions by communicating in a shared space.

If I can tell you what I think and feel about 'The Starry Night', then I can also share what I felt during my last meditation. The problem arises when the other side has absolutely no interest in art. You would just waste your breath, wouldn't you? 
There has to be a mutual understanding for real communication to take place. If I dismiss your position beforehand, no amount of listening will give me real understanding.

[teatime101]

49 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

If I can tell you what I think and feel about 'The Starry Night', then I can also share what I felt during my last meditation.

That's about sharing subjective experiences through language or art, etc. If you accept that it is a subjective experience, we can agree to enjoy communicating about it. If you insist that your feelings are somehow objectively true, we have a problem.

Religions generally take the position that certain core beliefs are 'true', ie. 'objectively true'. In that case, I defer to the rigorous process of the scientific method to determine 'fact' vs 'fiction'.

 

When a belief relies on magic (eg, "God did it"), rather than empirically observable events, I would say it's probably fiction.

[Sunmaster]

1 minute ago, teatime101 said:

That's about sharing subjective experiences through language or art, etc. If you accept that it is a subjective experience, we can agree to enjoy communicating about it. If you insist that your feelings are somehow objectively true, we have a problem.

Religions generally take the position that certain core beliefs are 'true', ie. 'objectively true'. In that case, I defer to the rigorous process of the scientific method to determine 'fact' vs 'fiction'.

 

When a belief relies on magic (eg, "God did it"), rather than empirically observable events, I would say it's probably fiction.

I'm not religious, so someone else might be better suited to answer that.
I prefer to follow what Buddha said, paraphrasing: Don't believe me, find out by yourself.
 

3 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

When a belief relies on magic (eg, "God did it"), rather than empirically observable events, I would say it's probably fiction.

Like I said, I prefer not to rely on blind beliefs, but choose to empirically observe events that appear during meditation, for example. 

We all have Belief Systems (BS) that are made up from data we gather from many sources: what our parents taught us, school, church, our friends/peers, other sources we deem trustworthy, our own personal experiences. The convictions that come from these systems are a way for us to make sense of the world around us and to define our role within it.
Maybe you choose to ignore a certain source because the data doesn't make sense to you. That's your right and nobody will contest that. But if you, or anyone else comes to me, saying that my data sources (my own experience as well as experts in that field) are wrong, then we do have a problem. 
For my BS, I choose to have as many data sources as possible, but that doesn't mean I'm a sucker for any wacky theory out there.

From your posts, it seems you are frustrated because you want the spiritual data source to make sense. You say you thought you knew what it was, but then "lost" it. How did that happen? What did you think it was?

[Skeptic7]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Good grief, I actually agree with something you wrote, but only that part.

 

I don't know why people think "God" murdered their child, but I suppose it helps to blame something for what is just something that happens for no discernable reason. Cows don't blame God when they are killed to be eaten.

My brother died at 2 years old, but I've never blamed God for killing him as it's just life. Life sucks, but that's just the way it is.

Nobody is saying, nor blaming, any god. I never held such belief, so death is just the final, inevitable end of every living thing. Many, like the OP, come to that realization for myriad reasons. He was apparently some sort of believer before the death of his young daughter and this was what brought him to that realization.

 

The difference 'tween me and you is that you're a Deist and posit an apathetic creator-deity behind everything without a shred of evidence. Many of the founders of the USA were Deists, so you're not in bad company. However you have the benefit of a couple centuries+ of knowledge and discoveries since...none of which point to any deity. That's still your belief and that's fine, but...

 

Please don't point to the trees, mountains and oceans or sunsets, nor other beauties of the Universe. We know you appreciate the beauties of nature and I appreciate this beauty as much as you. As a nature photographer, I'm out in the field almost daily. The natural beauty of Planet Earth and the stark, vast vacuum of space point to no evidence, nor lend any credence, of any deity or conscious creator hiding behind it all. 

 

You stated "life sucks". I disagree. While it is true that life probably sucks at times in everyone's life and certainly more for some than others. I find life fascinating and exciting. I wake up looking forward to every new day and always searching for new discoveries. And in the downtime...all the great times with my lovely wife. Food and spirits, our house and gardens, books and movies, video games, travel and our 3 cats and 3 dogs (all rescued, of course). 

 

NO deity required. 

[teatime101]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

From your posts, it seems you are frustrated because you want the spiritual data source to make sense. You say you thought you knew what it was, but then "lost" it. How did that happen? What did you think it was?

I said I thought I knew what spirituality was, or meant. Now I don't. I'm open to speculation about a deep underlying unity or purpose (I don't like that term). As Einstein said, 'it' is probably not the slightest bit interested in homo sapiens...

 

I think Taoism has a deep intuitive grasp of what makes the world turn. Observe nature - it is the key to everything. Opposites define each other. Yin and yang, if you like.

 

Like most belief systems, it seems, Taoism (harmony with nature) and Buddhism (journey of the soul to enlightenment) began as philosophies and ended up as religions. This is the weakness of humans, to need to pray to gods for personal needs and desires - money, health, etc.

 

 

 

 

[gazza4]

For my whole life, after I quit "Sunday School "I have firmly believed that ALL religions have been created by "pecuniary interests " as yet another way to control those of the world who are poor, uneducated, etc. As a previous opinion noted, most, if not all , human conflict ,has been a(and continues to be) a result of religious beliefs inflicted on poor people by manipulation 

[Elad]

13 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thanks... Silly of me to get my Centrifugal mixed up with my Centripetal ???? 

 

For anybody who's interested in watching the Flat Earther documentary (wouldn't really recommend it) it was called "Behind the Curve" & is available on Netflix. 

Did you know that in 'Flat Earth Theory' gravity doesn't exist?

They claim that the force we feel that keeps us fixed to the surface, is the Earth accelerating upwards at 9.81 m/s^2. They call it 'Universal Acceleration'. 

It's actually quite difficult to prove its wrong, this is due to the 'Equivalence Principle', and that is, any experiments performed on the surface of the Earth will give you the same results if you performed the same experiment in rocket accelerating at 9.81 m/s^2.

 

Even Einstein said " Its as though the Earth is accelerating upwards"

An accelerometer will read zero when in free fall, and will read 9.81 when its resting on the surface on the Earth.????

 

There is one experiment however, that proves we are NOT accelerating and that is muon decay experiment where scientists measure the half life of muons which are created from cosmic rays hitting the upper atmosphere, the result wouldn't be consistent if the Earth really was accelerating. Don't tell the 'Flat Earth'rs' though, it would break their hearts knowing we have experimental evidence that goes against their theory. ????     

[VincentRJ]

5 hours ago, teatime101 said:

The anti-science attitude of many religious people is evident, even in this forum. As I said, that has consequences, as *some* religious believers refuse to accept the scientific consensus on issues that effect all of us - climate change, for instance.

I have to disagree with you on this point. Accepting a consensus on an issue that that has been repeatedly tested under controlled conditions, and which has resulted in consistent outcomes, is sensible and rational.

 

However, climate is a complex, chaotic and non-linear system, and changes in future climate on a global scale, cannot be confidently predicted. A degree of skepticism is justified, especially when such predictions (or projections) are based on computer models which have so often been shown to be seriously inaccurate.

[teatime101]

42 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

computer models which have so often been shown to be seriously inaccurate.

On the contrary. I've been following the science for the last eight years, and have read many hundreds of climate papers in that time. I suspect you haven't actually gone to find out what the models predict or how the modelling is done, and how closely the data of major global climate institutions matches.

 

It's not only religion that promotes negative stereotypes about science. A lot of it is driven by politics.

 

Unfortunately, it's off-topic, so I'll leave it there.

[VincentRJ]

47 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

On the contrary. I've been following the science for the last eight years, and have read many hundreds of climate papers in that time. 

Like some people read the Bible, over and over again, and develop great faith. ????

 

It's always important to consider alternative views. The problem with religions in general is that they tend to discourage that.

[talahtnut]

3 hours ago, Elad said:

Even Einstein said " Its as though the Earth is accelerating upwards"

An accelerometer will read zero when in free fall, and will read 9.81 when its resting on the surface on the Earth.

That was not Einstein that said that, it was his thick brother Frank Einstein.

[Elad]

51 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

That was not Einstein that said that, it was his thick brother Frank Einstein.

I can't find the quote from Einstein, but I can show you how the accelerometer works ????

 

 

[teatime101]

12 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

It's always important to consider alternative views.

Certainly, the more the better. Each climate paper has to pass through peer review. Did they do that with the Bible? Do we know anything about the vetting process for scripture?

[VincentRJ]

21 minutes ago, teatime101 said:

Certainly, the more the better. Each climate paper has to pass through peer review. Did they do that with the Bible? Do we know anything about the vetting process for scripture?

Yes. The first qualification for the Biblical 'peer review' process, is that you had to believe in a Creator God, or Yahweh, which is a similar situation to the belief that increased CO2 levels from the burning of fossil fuels will cause catastrophic changes in climate. ????

[CMNightRider]

On 5/4/2020 at 2:49 PM, Sunmaster said:

That's quite funny and ironic, coming from one who believes in Adam&Eve, Hell&Heaven and all those fairy tales. ????

 

Well, this may come as a shock to you, but God created Adam and Eve, and when we die we are destined to spend eternity in either Heaven or Hell.  God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell.  His signature is all over this planet for all to see.  He even made sure what He wants us to know is written in the Bible.  Satan is real and is working hard to deceive us into believing what you stated in your post which is neither funny nor ironic as you mentioned.

 

You have until you take your last breath to wake up.  After you die it is a done deal.  There are no unbelievers in Hell.  Unfortunately by the time ones gets there it is too late to change your mind.  If I were you or any of your like minded friends, I would pray to God in Jesus name, and read about where we came from and where we are going in the Bible.    

[giddyup]

3 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Well, this may come as a shock to you, but God created Adam and Eve, and when we die we are destined to spend eternity in either Heaven or Hell.  God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell.  His signature is all over this planet for all to see.  He even made sure what He wants us to know is written in the Bible.  Satan is real and is working hard to deceive us into believing what you stated in your post which is neither funny nor ironic as you mentioned.

 

You have until you take your last breath to wake up.  After you die it is a done deal.  There are no unbelievers in Hell.  Unfortunately by the time ones gets there it is too late to change your mind.  If I were you or any of your like minded friends, I would pray to God in Jesus name, and read about where we came from and where we are going in the Bible.    

Old Testament rubbish. Burn in hell if you don't believe. So much for a compassionate god.

Edited May 6, 2020 by giddyup

[mauGR1]

19 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Well, this may come as a shock to you, but God created Adam and Eve, and when we die we are destined to spend eternity in either Heaven or Hell.  God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell.  His signature is all over this planet for all to see.  He even made sure what He wants us to know is written in the Bible.  Satan is real and is working hard to deceive us into believing what you stated in your post which is neither funny nor ironic as you mentioned.

 

You have until you take your last breath to wake up.  After you die it is a done deal.  There are no unbelievers in Hell.  Unfortunately by the time ones gets there it is too late to change your mind.  If I were you or any of your like minded friends, I would pray to God in Jesus name, and read about where we came from and where we are going in the Bible.    

I have nothing against your beliefs, i am even sure that what you call "The bible" is a precious source of information, and there even may be real "words of God" there.

What i question is your inability to discuss openly your faith and other people's faiths or beliefs.

On a less serious note, you are a bit more dogmatic than any atheist.

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, teatime101 said:

Certainly, the more the better. Each climate paper has to pass through peer review. Did they do that with the Bible? Do we know anything about the vetting process for scripture?

There are far better and clearer spiritual books out there, with a lot less useless information (for spiritual purposes) and a lot more practical advises. Have a look at Patanjali's "Yoga Sutras" for example. What you find there is a practical manual for introspection. The information has been peer reviewed for centuries and is completely open to scrutiny. Just don't come with a test tube. ???? 

[fredwiggy]

40 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Well, this may come as a shock to you, but God created Adam and Eve, and when we die we are destined to spend eternity in either Heaven or Hell.  God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell.  His signature is all over this planet for all to see.  He even made sure what He wants us to know is written in the Bible.  Satan is real and is working hard to deceive us into believing what you stated in your post which is neither funny nor ironic as you mentioned.

 

You have until you take your last breath to wake up.  After you die it is a done deal.  There are no unbelievers in Hell.  Unfortunately by the time ones gets there it is too late to change your mind.  If I were you or any of your like minded friends, I would pray to God in Jesus name, and read about where we came from and where we are going in the Bible.    

Amen

[Sunmaster]

52 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Well, this may come as a shock to you, but God created Adam and Eve, and when we die we are destined to spend eternity in either Heaven or Hell.  God doesn't want anyone to perish in Hell.  His signature is all over this planet for all to see.  He even made sure what He wants us to know is written in the Bible.  Satan is real and is working hard to deceive us into believing what you stated in your post which is neither funny nor ironic as you mentioned.

 

You have until you take your last breath to wake up.  After you die it is a done deal.  There are no unbelievers in Hell.  Unfortunately by the time ones gets there it is too late to change your mind.  If I were you or any of your like minded friends, I would pray to God in Jesus name, and read about where we came from and where we are going in the Bible.    

No, it's no shock to me at all. I know the bible is full of such stories. The shock comes rather from the fact that you can not see past the obvious allegories and metaphors, and perceive God as limited by vengeance and as head of some sort of exclusive membership club. 

God is there for all of us, all of the time, whether you believe in him or not, whether you believe in one religion or the other, whether you are an atheist or a pious monk or the worst of the criminals.

God's love is not bound by anything but your own heart.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Sunmaster

[Neeranam]

I started believing in God after many spiritual experiences in India.

 

You don't know you were sleeping until you wake up.

 

 

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I started believing in God after many spiritual experiences in India.

 

You don't know you were sleeping until you wake up.

 

 

Same here, and the same for many other people who were disappointed with the organised religion, India has opened the mind of many.

 

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Same here, and the same for many other people who were disappointed with the organised religion, India has opened the mind of many.

 

Indeed. I remember before going to India, two hippies told me "there are two kinds of people in this world -  those who have been to India and those who haven't".

Trying to describe it is like trying to explain what taking LSD is like to someone who hasn't tried it, or explaining a God experience to someone who hasn't had one.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

I used to believe that believing and trusting on God was a weakness. As it happens, it's the complete opposite. 

[mauGR1]

Just now, Neeranam said:

Indeed. I remember before going to India, two hippies told me "there are two kinds of people in this world -  those who have been to India and those who haven't".

Trying to describe it is like trying to explain what taking LSD is like to someone who hasn't tried it, or explaining a God experience to someone who hasn't had one.

I spent the best years of my life travelling in India, your words have re-opened a window on a world of memories, that would be difficult to describe.

Not everything was wonderful, of course but i have seen things who defy most people's notion of reality.

[Neeranam]

7 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I spent the best years of my life travelling in India, your words have re-opened a window on a world of memories, that would be difficult to describe.

Not everything was wonderful, of course but i have seen things who defy most people's notion of reality.

Me too, 6 months where something amazing happened almost on a daily basis. meeting Gurus, Saints, the Dalai Lama etc. It's nice to remember. Wild binges in Goa to start off, followed by 5 months of self-examination, meditation and chai. And the occasional chillum or bong(the only Thai word in use in the English language)! 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Neeranam

[pineapple01]

I got the Eye for an Eye bit, its never followed any more though.

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, pineapple01 said:

I got the Eye for an Eye bit, its never followed any more though.

That's just a bit crude description of the law of karma, or law of cause and effect.