Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying.
For you, the vision of that dead husband must be a hallucination produced by the grieving wife, because you have no other way of explaining it.

For me, the event can be looked at from another point of view that includes the scientific field, but also takes into account another, wider framework. In this framework, consciousness is not bound by a body and can appear to a person who is in tune with that consciousness. I would have no problem believing that woman.
I think that the religious or spiritual visions of the saints are not just hallucinations produced by unstable minds. (Wouldn't that be awfully condescending?) They are very powerful and profound messages that can change one's life forever. Their authenticity can't be denied by the subject, the same way you can't deny the pain in your hand when you punch a wall. 

Correct, there are things that everyone can see, and other things that can be seen by most, things that can be seen by few, and things that can be seen occasionally by some individuals.

To deny subjective reality is indeed a very shallow vision, yet understandable if one relies just on the physical senses.

[Tagged]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Correct, there are things that everyone can see, and other things that can be seen by most, things that can be seen by few, and things that can be seen occasionally by some individuals.

To deny subjective reality is indeed a very shallow vision, yet understandable if one relies just on the physical senses.

People under stress can start hearing things and see things, we know that, and it is easy to explain, as well people influenced with drugs, also see, hear, smell and taste things that is not real. Even being told what things is tasting like, without influence of any drugs, you can actually taste it just being led by one who know how to do it, as well make you see things that is not real. Well, some choose to believe in brain science And proven tecniques, and other choose to think they know better based on their own experiences, even they use same tecniques or have infuenced themselves with drugs for the purposes to dive in to the unknown. 

 

I also have experienced how my brain works, and also been explained why it happens by people who know what they are doing, and how they are doing it. But, again, we choose, our choice

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, Tagged said:

People under stress can start hearing things and see things, we know that, and it is easy to explain, as well people influenced with drugs, also see, hear, smell and taste things that is not real. Even being told what things is tasting like, without influence of any drugs, you can actually taste it just being led by one who know how to do it, as well make you see things that is not real. Well, some choose to believe in brain science And proven tecniques, and other choose to think they know better based on their own experiences, even they use same tecniques or have infuenced themselves with drugs for the purposes to dive in to the unknown. 

 

I also have experienced how my brain works, and also been explained why it happens by people who know what they are doing, and how they are doing it. But, again, we choose, our choice

Yes, I hear you, and understand what you mean, yet the field which can be called human imagination is so vast and complex that we should examine every single experience, and yet it would be difficult to determine the exact limit where real becomes unreal.

I know that I am repeating myself, but personally I consider thoughts as real in the world of thought, in the same way you and i, the trees and the rocks appear as real in the physical world.

[luckyluke]

52 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, why anyone writing on this thread would have an agenda ?

Of course we all have an ego, i, you and everyone else here.

So apart from boosting our  own ego, what would be the agenda which not too subtly you are implying some of us are having ?

I am really curious to know, yet not holding my breath for a straight answer.

Agenda is maybe the wrong translation. 

I believe some are using their skills to try to convince others that they are the only ones knowing the truth, and that their opinion has much more value (after all they can explain it in well written way) than the opinion of another (after all he can hardly explain himself). 

Ridiculing him help as well. Trying to get him upset(constant using of emoticons on whatever written) is a way as well. 

My answers have always been straight, clear and easy to understanding. 

Proclaiming the opposite helps to discredit someone. 

But I won't give up, and will continue to express my opinion, when I find it opportune to do. 

 

[Sunmaster]

Yes, you are both right.
But what Tagged said is simply not enough of an explanation for religious/spiritual experiences, be they drug induced (which make them no less authentic), the result of a meditative practice or spontaneous. 
I remember there was a Neurosurgeon who believed the same thing as you....until she had a massive stroke. Then everything she thought she knew about the brain and consciousness dramatically changed in favour of a more comprehensive framework. 

I think I posted her story a while ago, but can post again if needed or if I can find the video.

[Tagged]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Yes, you are both right.
But what Tagged said is simply not enough of an explanation for religious/spiritual experiences, be they drug induced (which make them no less authentic), the result of a meditative practice or spontaneous. 
I remember there was a Neurosurgeon who believed the same thing as you....until she had a massive stroke. Then everything she thought she knew about the brain and consciousness dramatically changed in favour of a more comprehensive framework. 

I think I posted her story a while ago, but can post again if needed or if I can find the video.

It is common sense that every thinking human, need a reason for a belief, be it religious/spiritual experiences as well, and we need a wish to believe as well. When you do not have any proof, neither a wish to believe in others experiences, or why should we? Thats another important question as lucky asked, why should we take your words for it? Especially when I look at my experiences, and found quite ordinary explanations why things is like it is, and why I can go an a journey led by someone else, just using quite known tecniques also every master, guru or preacher also know about. Even I can put myself in to a state where I can go on a journey if I want to using the same methods. In fact I use parts of it every night to fall asleep, to sleep good with sweet dreams, and wake up relaxed in the morning. 

[Rimmer]

Some baiting posts have been removed

[Sunmaster]

12 minutes ago, Tagged said:

It is common sense that every thinking human, need a reason for a belief, be it religious/spiritual experiences as well, and we need a wish to believe as well. When you do not have any proof, neither a wish to believe in others experiences, or why should we? Thats another important question as lucky asked, why should we take your words for it? Especially when I look at my experiences, and found quite ordinary explanations why things is like it is, and why I can go an a journey led by someone else, just using quite known tecniques also every master, guru or preacher also know about. Even I can put myself in to a state where I can go on a journey if I want to using the same methods. In fact I use parts of it every night to fall asleep, to sleep good with sweet dreams, and wake up relaxed in the morning. 

"Why should we take your words for it?"
No, you should absolutely NOT take my word for it. I said this many times. What I'm saying is hardly something new. It may sound new to you because you were not confronted by it before.
What you should do, if you really want to find out, is to use the tools and maps that have been laid out by the experts in that field. 
How can you expect to look at a spiritual experience from the outside and judge its authenticity? It's like expecting a farmer to oversee the construction of a rocket. At the most he can say if the rocket looks good or not.
But what if that farmer educates himself, goes to university, studies, becomes an apprentice of a rocket scientist and finally masters the subject? Then he would have the mental tools to oversee the rocket construction. 

 

"When you do not have any proof, neither a wish to believe in others experiences, or why should we?"
This is fair enough, if you don't wish to explore this part of life further, that's up to you. But then, why are you following this thread?

"Especially when I look at my experiences, and found quite ordinary explanations why things is like it is"
Using the "lens" analogy again...you look at someone's experience through your own skewed lens (we all do, but spiritual experiences are moments of clarity when the lens is perfectly clear) and make your own experience the measure of all other experiences. "I've never experienced it, so I deduce from that that you can't either."

Edited October 6, 2020 by Sunmaster

[VincentRJ]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying.
For you, the vision of that dead husband must be a hallucination produced by the grieving wife, because you have no other way of explaining it.

For me, the event can be looked at from another point of view that includes the scientific field, but also takes into account another, wider framework. In this framework, consciousness is not bound by a body and can appear to a person who is in tune with that consciousness. I would have no problem believing that woman.
I think that the religious or spiritual visions of the saints are not just hallucinations produced by unstable minds. (Wouldn't that be awfully condescending?) They are very powerful and profound messages that can change one's life forever. Their authenticity can't be denied by the subject, the same way you can't deny the pain in your hand when you punch a wall. 

Not true. There have always been many ways of explaining phenomena. The issue is, 'what is the best and most sensible explanation that is supported by evidence?' Is the theory of Evolution a better explanation for the origin of life than the hypothesis of a Creator God? I would say it is. The Adam and Eve story is pure fiction.

 

Is the explanation for powerful thunder storms with lightning strikes that kill people, and heavy rain that washes homes away and kills people, simply a punishment by some God, or is the scientific explanation and description of weather events and their cause, a better explanation?

 

An alternative explanation for the grieving wife seeing her dead husband resurrected, is that his eternal soul or spirit actually descended into the chair, but only she could see him. Do you really accept such an explanation?

 

I tend to accept explanations from the sciences of Psychology, Psychiatry and Neurology, although I'm sometimes undecided when there are a number of different explanations. I posted an image of a lady some time ago, as a negative film. The lady looked rather horrible because it was a negative film. However, staring at the horrible image with unblinking eyes for half a minute, then looking up at the ceiling and blinking once, resulted in a positive, colorful image of a beautiful lady.

 

Is your explanation that the spirit of the lady descended from the heavens to my ceiling? ????  Or is it a better explanation that my mind processed the negative image into a positive, whilst I was staring at it for half a minute, and then projected that positive image onto the ceiling when I looked up at a blank area?

[Tagged]

44 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

 

"When you do not have any proof, neither a wish to believe in others experiences, or why should we?"
This is fair enough, if you don't wish to explore this part of life further, that's up to you. But then, why are you following this thread?
 

Maybe wrong to say neither a wish, since I have been looking, and all I find is magic I can put words to, and understand why happening. Both observing others, and also the journey I have been on many times. Even with drugs, except psycedlica, I am already a hand full if Im not going to use that to ???? 

 

what I found was fantastic, peace, quiet, rockn roll, colours, space ships but mostly just wonderful colours and a very nice path to follow with one single flower. So I guess I found what I was looking for right there and then. Or better said a lead, so I could continue to understand my brain, my universe my demons and my god, that happens to be our god, but not the god so many think. We are living it, we are it. And it is just as much as the answer should be 42. It matters only to me, how I see it, not you, and nobody else. 

 

To make it more simple again, we are part of nature, that is god

Edited October 6, 2020 by Tagged

[Sunmaster]

12 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Not true. There have always been many ways of explaining phenomena. The issue is, 'what is the best and most sensible explanation that is supported by evidence?' Is the theory of Evolution a better explanation for the origin of life than the hypothesis of a Creator God? I would say it is. The Adam and Eve story is pure fiction.

Yes, there are many ways of explaining a phenomenon and I completely agree with 'what is the best and most sensible explanation that is supported by evidence?'
The Adam&Eve creation story is not the only explanation contraposed to the theory of evolution. Plenty of other versions, and some make a lot more sense to me than the ToE.
The evidence you seek may be different from the one I accept, though.

 

12 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Is the explanation for powerful thunder storms with lightning strikes that kill people, and heavy rain that washes homes away and kills people, simply a punishment by some God, or is the scientific explanation and description of weather events and their cause, a better explanation?

Talk to those who take the bible literally and believe in a vengeful God. 

 

12 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

An alternative explanation for the grieving wife seeing her dead husband resurrected, is that his eternal soul or spirit actually descended into the chair, but only she could see him. Do you really accept such an explanation?

From the way I see it, consciousness is immortal and we know next to nothing about it. I would certainly not exclude it a priori, nor deride it, nor dismiss it with a non-explanation of "it's simply a hallucination".

 

12 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Is your explanation that the spirit of the lady descended from the heavens to my ceiling? ????  Or is it a better explanation that my mind processed the negative image into a positive, whilst I was staring at it for half a minute, and then projected that positive image onto the ceiling when I looked up at a blank area?

I hope you don't expect me to answer this...

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Sunmaster

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

From the way I see it, consciousness is immortal and we know next to nothing about it. I would certainly not exclude it a priori, nor deride it, nor dismiss it with a non-explanation of "it's simply a hallucination".

 

Can you not see the contradiction in your above comment? If consciousness is immortal and we know next to nothing about it, how can you claim it is immortal? A more sensible statement, although not necessarily correct with regard to 'next to nothing', would be, 'We know next to nothing about consciousness therefore the possibility that it is immortal should be considered, but not accepted as fact.'

 

1 hour ago, VincentRJ said:

Is your explanation that the spirit of the lady descended from the heavens to my ceiling? ????  Or is it a better explanation that my mind processed the negative image into a positive, whilst I was staring at it for half a minute, and then projected that positive image onto the ceiling when I looked up at a blank area?

 

I hope you don't expect me to answer this...

 

Yes, I do. I haven't had much feed-back on that image I posted. Thaibeachlovers dismissed it as something that was well known. You said that it worked for you, but you didn't provide any further details.

 

Since I've spent a lot of time scanning and processing negatives and slides and trying to make the results as impressive as possible, through adjustments in the scanning software and in Photoshop, I have tended to assume that this is the reason why my projection of the imaginary image on the ceiling seems such a beautiful transition from the ugly negative image. In other words, my mind, neurons and synapses, have altered as a result of my photographic activities, and have automatically processed the best outcome whilst staring at the negative..

 

I'm curious if those who have not been involved in photographic processing, experience similar results, that is, a beautiful face with perfect color and smooth skin. I'll post the image again, but I must emphasize, one should focus on the three dots on the lady's nose when staring at the image without blinking, and one should firmly blink once after raising one's view to the ceiling.

 

I would also be interested in the results from any women reading this post and viewing the image.
 

[Ventenio]

i will type in the God code:

 

ok, done.   if you can see it, congrats.  sorry to the many who cannot.  bless.  

[Sunmaster]

Just now, VincentRJ said:

Can you not see the contradiction in your above comment? If consciousness is immortal and we know next to nothing about it, how can you claim it is immortal? A more sensible statement, although not necessarily correct with regard to 'next to nothing', would be, 'We know next to nothing about consciousness therefore the possibility that it is immortal should be considered, but not accepted as fact.'

 

I meant "we" as in you, me and most of the people we know. I do believe that there are people who have direct access to states of consciousness where these sort of questions are answered and make sense. But yes, your version is equally correct if you prefer.

In regards to the photo... I'm familiar with this optical illusion, although I don't know exactly how it works. I find it interesting, but don't consider it something out of the ordinary. I'm pretty sure everyone will have more or less the same experience.

[Tagged]

20 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

i will type in the God code:

 

ok, done.   if you can see it, congrats.  sorry to the many who cannot.  bless.  

You are a bad boy

[mauGR1]

21 minutes ago, Tagged said:

You are a bad boy

But we forgive him, don't we.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Everything that affects us is worthy of consideration, but some issues are so complicated with so many influencing factors, even the most rigorous application the methodology of science cannot solve the problem or achieve certainty.

 

 

 

 

In a sense, we're all in the 'scientific field'. We use scientific products daily. Our modern lifestyles depend on them. One doesn't have to be a professional scientist in order to appreciate logic and rationality.

 

I'll try to explain what I mean using the following analogy. Imagine the situation of a woman who has recently lost her husband whom she dearly loved. She is constantly thinking about their past experiences together, including the wonderful dinners they had together and with others, at their large dining room table.

 

One day she invites some of those friends for a meal at the same table. One of the chairs where her husband used to sit is empty. As the meal progresses, she can't help thinking about her late husband, then suddenly he appears in the empty chair across the table. She feels great joy and announces to everyone, 'My husband has returned. He's sitting in the chair opposite me. Can't you see him?'

 

The other people at the table are very perplexed and tell the woman they cannot see anyone in the empty chair. The woman insists that she can see him clearly and can even hear him. So one of the guests next to the empty chair swings his arm across the chair to demonstrate that there's no material body there (a very basic example of the methodology of science).
The woman becomes confused, rises from her chair, walks to the opposite side of the table, and moves her own arm across the empty chair. The hallucination of her husband disappears and she realizes that it really was an hallucination and just a projection from her own mind.

 

Now this analogy is not a completely fictional story. Such events do happen. An ancient example is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He died on the cross and was laid in a tomb after being confirmed as definitely dead. Three days later he is claimed to have been resurrected and walked around speaking to various individuals for a period of time. This seems to me a perfect example of hallucination, and/or an exaggerated and fictional account to promote the belief in Jesus. It's not difficult to understand that a few people who wholeheartedly believed in Jesus and who had heard of the predictions of his arising from the dead after 3 days, would have had an hallucination to confirm that predicted resurrection. Their belief depended upon it.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_812.cfm

 

This belief is so essential, if I had written the above about 600 to 700 years ago, I would have been burned alive at the stake for heresy. Thank God  ???? I'm living in the 21st century. 

I know what you are implying, but it doesn't have any relevance to what such as Sunmaster is writing. When I had my revelation I had not lost a loved one nor did I have a vision.

[VincentRJ]

29 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

I meant "we" as in you, me and most of the people we know. I do believe that there are people who have direct access to states of consciousness where these sort of questions are answered and make sense. But yes, your version is equally correct if you prefer.

When I write 'we' in these contexts of deep philosophical issues, I'm referring to the total human understanding of the issue, to the extent I am aware of it. Even deep complex scientific issues can be explained in common language, such as Einstein's theory of relativity.

 

In regards to the photo... I'm familiar with this optical illusion, although I don't know exactly how it works. I find it interesting, but don't consider it something out of the ordinary. I'm pretty sure everyone will have more or less the same experience.

 

Interesting that you are familiar with it. Photography has been a hobby for me for most of my life, yet I came across this strange and amazing effect just recently.
Maybe it's true that everyone will have 'more or less' the same experience, but the term 'more or less' can include extreme differences ranging from a beautiful transformation, as in my own case, to a blurry incoherent image in other cases, or perhaps no image at all.

 

That's why I would like feed-back on the quality of the projected image that others experience.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Is the explanation for powerful thunder storms with lightning strikes that kill people, and heavy rain that washes homes away and kills people, simply a punishment by some God, or is the scientific explanation and description of weather events and their cause, a better explanation?

Even though all that was discussed long ago, you may have missed it.

 

Thunder and lightning is caused by nature, not punishment by God, but God created nature along with life the universe and everything.

[Tagged]

10 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

But we forgive him, don't we.

Bad boys is always liked, even girls like bad boys more than the good boys. Im sure Adam have something to say about that!

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

Interesting that you are familiar with it. Photography has been a hobby for me for most of my life, yet I came across this strange and amazing effect just recently.

That sort of optical trick has been around for many years. Similar things were published in magazines long ago.

[VincentRJ]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Even though all that was discussed long ago, you may have missed it.

No, I didn't miss it. I was discussing it even years before this thread was started. Perhaps Sunmaster missed it.

 

Thunder and lightning is caused by nature, not punishment by God, but God created nature along with life the universe and everything.

 

Wow! You must be one of the most knowledgeable persons on the planet to know that God created everything. ????

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, VincentRJ said:

No, I didn't miss it. I was discussing it even years before this thread was started. Perhaps Sunmaster missed it.

 

 

 

 

Wow! You must be one of the most knowledgeable persons on the planet to know that God created everything. ????

You don't do yourself any favours by insulting other posters.

[VincentRJ]

15 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That sort of optical trick has been around for many years. Similar things were published in magazines long ago.

Obviously I never read such magazines. However, if you want to be useful, please try to explain what's happening, and I'd like some link to such magazines and any scientific article which addresses the phenomenon and explains what's happening in the brain.

[Sunmaster]

Just now, VincentRJ said:

Obviously I never read such magazines. However, if you want to be useful, please try to explain what's happening, and I'd like some link to such magazines and any scientific article which addresses the phenomenon and explains what's happening in the brain.

Maybe better if you start a new thread about that. ????

[VincentRJ]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You don't do yourself any favours by insulting other posters.

Do you mean calling you one of the most knowledgeable persons on the planet is an insult? Or suggesting that Sunmaster might have missed it, is an insult?

[VincentRJ]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Maybe better if you start a new thread about that. ????

The way the brain works is relevant to my argument about beliefs in the supernatural, eternal soul, and Gods. Most disasters and tragedies are due to beliefs that are not in accord with reality. Our capacity as a species to survive and progress into the future depends on our ability to distinguish between fiction and reality and understand the causes and solution of the problems that afflict us.

[mauGR1]

31 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Bad boys is always liked, even girls like bad boys more than the good boys. Im sure Adam have something to say about that!

I prefer bad girls though, they are never boring, although sometimes bit dangerous.????

 

[Peter Denis]

5 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I prefer bad girls though, they are never boring, although sometimes bit dangerous.????

Hi @mauGR1 > then you should check out this illuminating scientific categorization item on women, aka the Crazy Hot Matrix ????

 

 

[Sunmaster]

17 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

The way the brain works is relevant to my argument about beliefs in the supernatural, eternal soul, and Gods. Most disasters and tragedies are due to beliefs that are not in accord with reality. Our capacity as a species to survive and progress into the future depends on our ability to distinguish between fiction and reality and understand the causes and solution of the problems that afflict us.

It seems to be a topic that interests only you. That's why you got little to no feedback the first time. 

I'm sure you're quite capable to do your own research, so why ask thaibeachlover to do it for you?