Do you believe in God and why

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

It actually expands......sorry.....couldn't resist.

Well, the point is that through observing the physical actions, reactions and interactions,  one can get clues about spiritual realities. 

[cleopatra2]

18 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

The basis for a thought is created by thought itself.

The point,  though,  is that what we call reality is the result of thoughts. 

In other words, physical reality is condensed thought,  in the same way ice is condensed water.

If reality is the result of thought , what existed before thought.

[cleopatra2]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, the point is that through observing the physical actions, reactions and interactions,  one can get clues about spiritual realities. 

Excellent point,

what can be observed to support this spirit world ?

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, cleopatra2 said:

If reality is the result of thought , what existed before thought.

Some people call it God,  some people call it consciousness, I think we can agree that it would be difficult to find an answer which is good for everyone. 

Logic would suggest that, if there's a law which says: "everything which has a beginning has an end ", there must be an exception to that law, or rule.

[Sunmaster]

Just now, cleopatra2 said:

I am not discounting yoga or meditation. My issue is with the spirit world , the so called door into another realm . 

How can it be peer reviewed when nobody will describe its inner workings or what it contains. You have stated that each individual will have their own unique experience.

Before i attempt to go on this journey what is the fundamental question i should be applying to be able to support or not support the existence of this spirit world?

Ok, I think there is some confusion here.
What you call the spirit world is none other than a different state of consciousness. This state of consciousness is normally not accessible, but can be entered in a number of ways, one very effective way being meditation. The tools to do so are available to anyone willing to put in the effort. It has to be practiced regularly like every other skill to be mastered.
You will not become a professional pianist by studying the life of Mozart, right?

The inner world has very well been described. I just told you about the Yoga Sutra, but also the Upanishads, and many many other spiritual teachings.

Yes, every experience is unique as it reflects the uniqueness of the practitioner, but it is also true that all experiences follow certain rules and display common characteristics (as mentioned earlier). Therefore they can be mapped and peer reviewed.

 

9 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Before i attempt to go on this journey what is the fundamental question i should be applying to be able to support or not support the existence of this spirit world?

Again. You're overthinking it.

Do you feel the need to find out more? Yes? Good! Find a spiritual school you resonate with and start practicing regularly.

That's all there is to it.
 

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Excellent point,

what can be observed to support this spirit world ?

Observing how water can be vapour,  ice, or just water under different conditions is very interesting imho.

I read somewhere that just running a small solar system like ours is,  at the moment, above the best of human knowledge and abilities. 

Some people think that it happens by chance, others, including myself,  think the there is an intelligent design at work. 

 

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Observing how water can be vapour,  ice, or just water under different conditions is very interesting imho.

I read somewhere that just running a small solar system like ours is,  at the moment, above the best of human knowledge and abilities. 

Some people think that it happens by chance, others, including myself,  think the there is an intelligent design at work. 

 

The weak and strong anthropic principles are of interest on this topic.

[Sunmaster]

16 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

If reality is the result of thought , what existed before thought.

Exactly. What was there before you became "you"? As a baby you didn't have the notion of "I" and you need thoughts to build an "I", yet you were there regardless.
And what will be there once you dis-associate from the illusory "I" and enter the realm of non-thought?

[cleopatra2]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Observing how water can be vapour,  ice, or just water under different conditions is very interesting imho.

I read somewhere that just running a small solar system like ours is,  at the moment, above the best of human knowledge and abilities. 

Some people think that it happens by chance, others, including myself,  think the there is an intelligent design at work. 

 

observing water turning into vapor does not support the existence of a spirit world. 

what observations can be made to support the existence of spirit world ?

[mauGR1]

3 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

The weak and strong anthropic principles are of interest on this topic.

Surely yes, that's probably the essence of the debate. 

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

Surely yes, that's probably the essence of the debate. 

???? (that was a thumbs up)

Edited July 10, 2021 by Surelynot

[cleopatra2]

9 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Ok, I think there is some confusion here.
What you call the spirit world is none other than a different state of consciousness. This state of consciousness is normally not accessible, but can be entered in a number of ways, one very effective way being meditation. The tools to do so are available to anyone willing to put in the effort. It has to be practiced regularly like every other skill to be mastered.
You will not become a professional pianist by studying the life of Mozart, right?

The inner world has very well been described. I just told you about the Yoga Sutra, but also the Upanishads, and many many other spiritual teachings.

Yes, every experience is unique as it reflects the uniqueness of the practitioner, but it is also true that all experiences follow certain rules and display common characteristics (as mentioned earlier). Therefore they can be mapped and peer reviewed.

 

Again. You're overthinking it.

Do you feel the need to find out more? Yes? Good! Find a spiritual school you resonate with and start practicing regularly.

That's all there is to it.
 

This is where the problem lies.

You wish me to embark on the journey and then ask the question after the experience. This would be confirmation bias.

Returning to the idea of the black hole. If i wanted to test for its existence it would be required first to ask what would be the effect of the black hole ( the question). On defining the question and the expected answer the next step is to observe if the result is correct.

The question is asked first then observed.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

observing water turning into vapor does not support the existence of a spirit world. 

what observations can be made to support the existence of spirit world ?

The phone, or the computer, which you're using,  is the result of the interactions among human thought,  matter and universal laws, it's logical to think that everything which exists is the result of similar interactions among various forces.

Well, unless you think that humankind is the most intelligent form of life in the universe,  and that is not very logical imho. 

Just count the stars..

[cleopatra2]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

The phone, or the computer, which you're using,  is the result of the interactions among human thought,  matter and universal laws, it's logical to think that everything which exists is the result of similar interactions among various forces.

Well, unless you think that humankind is the most intelligent form of life in the universe,  and that is not very logical imho. 

Just count the stars..

But simply thinking of the phone does not magically create it. Having the thought of a phone is great , but  real material.is required to actual make one.

[cleopatra2]

18 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Exactly. What was there before you became "you"? As a baby you didn't have the notion of "I" and you need thoughts to build an "I", yet you were there regardless.
And what will be there once you dis-associate from the illusory "I" and enter the realm of non-thought?

is it possible for me to visit your spirit world ?

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

This is where the problem lies.

You wish me to embark on the journey and then ask the question after the experience. This would be confirmation bias.

Returning to the idea of the black hole. If i wanted to test for its existence it would be required first to ask what would be the effect of the black hole ( the question). On defining the question and the expected answer the next step is to observe if the result is correct.

The question is asked first then observed.

Hold your horses. Whether you embark on the journey or not is irrelevant to me. You would do yourself a favor, not me.

The question then is: Do you think you need that which meditation can offer?

Peace, serenity, increased self-awareness, better overcoming negative emotions, reduced stress and anxiety, increased imagination and creativity, better understanding of yourself and the world, and if you're lucky: bliss, ecstasy, feeling of cosmic love, union with the Divine...
Does that sound good to you? Well, the next step is to practice and observe if those claims are correct.
Endlessly going around asking questions will give you lots of answers, but not answer the most fundamental question of all: Who are you?

[cleopatra2]

8 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

The phone, or the computer, which you're using,  is the result of the interactions among human thought,  matter and universal laws, it's logical to think that everything which exists is the result of similar interactions among various forces.

Well, unless you think that humankind is the most intelligent form of life in the universe,  and that is not very logical imho. 

Just count the stars..

i probably misunderstand . You are basically saying thought is  spiritual.

[cleopatra2]

2 minutes ago, Sunmaster said:

Hold your horses. Whether you embark on the journey or not is irrelevant to me. You would do yourself a favor, not me.

The question then is: Do you think you need that which meditation can offer?

Peace, serenity, increased self-awareness, better overcoming negative emotions, reduced stress and anxiety, increased imagination and creativity, better understanding of yourself and the world, and if you're lucky: bliss, ecstasy, feeling of cosmic love, union with the Divine...
Does that sound good to you? Well, the next step is to practice and observe if those claims are correct.
Endlessly going around asking questions will give you lots of answers, but not answer the most fundamental question of all: Who are you?

I wanted to ascertain if this spirit world actual exist , or just lies in somebodies imagination..

It appears to me that you cannot provide actual effects that can be observed independently. Therefore I have arrived at the conclusion that it all resides in the imagination.

[Sunmaster]

3 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

I wanted to ascertain if this spirit world actual exist , or just lies in somebodies imagination..

It appears to me that you cannot provide actual effects that can be observed independently. Therefore I have arrived at the conclusion that it all resides in the imagination.

Ok, what are lifetimes of practice and observation by countless sages all over the world, compared with such disarming logic? 
You win.

[mauGR1]

14 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

But simply thinking of the phone does not magically create it. Having the thought of a phone is great , but  real material.is required to actual make one.

Right,  in fact I mentioned human thought,  universal laws and matter (real material if you prefer)

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

i probably misunderstand . You are basically saying thought is  spiritual.

I don't think that there is a definite border between the "material " and the "spiritual ", just infinite degrees of "density ".

For example, I could define matter as "condensed thought " , yet keeping in mind that thoughts themselves have infinite degrees of density. 

[Sunmaster]

Not for you @mauGR1 because I know you don't watch videos, but for those interested, here's a very interesting and in-depth documentary about psychedelics and their role in human evolution and history. 
 

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

11 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

This embodies the concept of the spirit world.

You have not answered any questions , but merely written sentences that explain nothing.

Your analogy with radio waves is flawed at the most basic level. Any person can tune a radio to the same station and receive the same signal if in the same vicinity of the transmitter , they do not need to have a special teaching to open the doorway.

Two people can tune into the radio into the same frequency , but if one is outside the transmitters range they will receive something different. (How can this be possible if the spirit world is everywhere).

 

But the issue is more basic.

Humanity as a rich history of inventing mystical beings to explain a lack of understanding and knowledge. As an example , different cultures throughout the world characterized eclipses as demons or dragons devouring the sun. Even to the extent that they would perform ceremonies in an attempt to frighten the demon off. In India people would worship  by bathing in water to help the sun fight the dragon.

 

Is it not more probable the spirit world is a made up  to explain what is uknown.

 

 

Good post. I think its fair to say myself and others have tried to go down this track.

The hope for me is not that this topic finds god even though it might be nice.

It is to discuss the concept of god and what that might say about the human body and mind. As you say people explained new frontiers of science, e.g. eclipses, by demons devouring the sun. A new frontier not fully understood by science could be the mind and body connection and people's lack of understanding might lead them to similarly attribute certain things to god. 

Sunmaster posted an interesting discussion on this topic today and much if not all of that discussion did not require a god.

Maybe some are asking tough questions or dealing with tough issues, and they want to work out some part of themselves they don't feel in control of or understand, and a coping mechanism, to deal with a difficult thought and existential mind process, is to attribute those aspects of themselves, for the time being, to god.  

That's why I don't concur that a discussion about god has to be a waste of time because, though our discussion is about dragons and demons, or gods,  we are really looking to understand the actuality of an eclipse, or in this case the mind body connection or similar.  

[canthai55]

“Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think. ”
Arthur Schopenhauer

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

“Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think. ”
Arthur Schopenhauer

Normally i quite agree with old Schop, perhaps it was a rainy day.

Well, it could be worse, there are people who are trained not to think.

[Sunmaster]

14 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Good post. I think its fair to say myself and others have tried to go down this track.

The hope for me is not that this topic finds god even though it might be nice.

It is to discuss the concept of god and what that might say about the human body and mind. As you say people explained new frontiers of science, e.g. eclipses, by demons devouring the sun. A new frontier not fully understood by science could be the mind and body connection and people's lack of understanding might lead them to similarly attribute certain things to god. 

Sunmaster posted an interesting discussion on this topic today and much if not all of that discussion did not require a god.

Maybe some are asking tough questions or dealing with tough issues, and they want to work out some part of themselves they don't feel in control of or understand, and a coping mechanism, to deal with a difficult thought and existential mind process, is to attribute those aspects of themselves, for the time being, to god.  

That's why I don't concur that a discussion about god has to be a waste of time because, though our discussion is about dragons and demons, or gods,  we are really looking to understand the actuality of an eclipse, or in this case the mind body connection or similar.  

I think a big problem is the very modern attitude of "I want everything and I want it now".
People come on this thread and demand some sort of proof or quick explanation of what God, or Cosmic Consciousness is. "OK, explain to me what God is in a simple paragraph, so I can get on with my day." It's like asking a concert pianist to give a crash course of his art in 5 minutes. You know what he would tell you? Correct, he would tell you that it's not possible to understand unless you practice daily for several years. The same goes for understanding your inner world, which leads to understanding the world in general, which leads to understanding everything there is. 

The funny thing is (well, not that funny actually), you can tell them this over and over again, but next time they'll see you they will ask again "Ok, but can you show me proof/God now?" "If you can't, it must mean it doesn't exist".

They want all answers served on a silver platter, without making the least effort possible. 
If it were so effortless to convey and understand/experience it, there would be no atheists around, trust me.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/10/2021 at 11:19 AM, Sunmaster said:

Carlos Castaneda asked his shaman teacher Don Juan the same question. I remember that Don Juan always avoided answering the question, because putting it into words would only confuse the issue more.

I think Don Juan was a wise shaman. 

I think that some come here to taunt rather than learn.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/11/2021 at 1:52 AM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Sunmaster posted an interesting discussion on this topic today and much if not all of that discussion did not require a god.

People exist whether or not people believe in God. Perhaps the question should be does God care if we believe or not?

As I've said previously I think not and that our "life spark" or "soul" returns to "God" after our bodies die.

To believe that God cares about us as individuals would imply that God cares about every single living thing in the entire universe, rather than just creating the means for the universe to exist and leaving it to lead wherever it will.

To be more clear- do I believe that God decided to create the human species on a not especially significant planet in a not especially significant solar system in a a not especially significant galaxy and follows each and every one of us through our entire lives for the entire period of the existence of humanity, multiplied by intelligent species on uncountable numbers of planets throughout the universe? No, I don't.

IMO God exists, but we are just a part of the universe, albeit of less importance than some of us think we are.

 

[Sunmaster]

48 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

People exist whether or not people believe in God. Perhaps the question should be does God care if we believe or not?

As I've said previously I think not and that our "life spark" or "soul" returns to "God" after our bodies die.

To believe that God cares about us as individuals would imply that God cares about every single living thing in the entire universe, rather than just creating the means for the universe to exist and leaving it to lead wherever it will.

To be more clear- do I believe that God decided to create the human species on a not especially significant planet in a not especially significant solar system in a a not especially significant galaxy and follows each and every one of us through our entire lives for the entire period of the existence of humanity, multiplied by intelligent species on uncountable numbers of planets throughout the universe? No, I don't.

IMO God exists, but we are just a part of the universe, albeit of less importance than some of us think we are.

 

I think differently because I don't believe in the separateness of us and the Divine.

I think that what the sages said about the world is true...that the whole is contained in the smallest particle. In other words, the Cosmic Consciousness is contained in every photon, atom, cell, organ, body, world, galaxy and universe(s). There is nothing that does not come from the Source and nothing that doesn't carry all the characteristics of the Whole.
It would be no effort at all being present in the life of men. In fact, I believe there is no other way for us to exist, unless permeated with the divine spark.

Take the definition of a hologram for example:
Every part of a hologram contains the image of the whole object. For every viewing angle you see the image in a different perspective, as you would a real object. Each piece of a hologram contains a particular perspective of the image, but it includes the entire object.

Also, one of the core characteristics of all mystical/spiritual experiences, is the feeling of a cosmic unity and love that goes far beyond anything previously experienced. This love is described as deeply personal and profoundly liberating. This alone would suggest that there is indeed a personal relationship between man and the Whole that is always present, although rarely fully felt. Just like a hologram, we reflect one perspective of the Whole, but include the Whole in its entirety.
It follows that all other living beings and all other objects are also imbued with the same imprint and enjoy the same unlimited love. Not more important, not less; not more loved, not less than anything or anyone else.

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Sunmaster

[Skeptic7]

34 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think that some come here to taunt rather than learn.

Some came to challenge. To ask for evidence and reason.  To push back against leaps of faith, unfounded beliefs, superstition, claims without evidence and astounding false equivalencies. 2+ years and 400+ pages and not one iota has been demonstrated about any "god" at all. None, zero, zilch...nada. Nothing has been learned about "God" or anything even close to a god, because nothing has been taught in any relative (to the topic), reasonable, evidence-based, meaningful way. 

 

Too bad if this dismays you. Sky, clouds, stars, beauty, sunsets, music, art, semi and sub-conscious brain states, psychedelic drugs, hallucinations, dreams, natural and artificially induced brain stimuli and awe are all cool...but do not, in the slightest, shed a bit of light, nor a shred of evidence, demonstrating any "god".