mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 minute ago, canuckamuck said: Would that not make God an invention of consciousness? Not at all, but if we compare God to an infinite universe, and all of that is pure consciousness, our individual consciousness are just little atoms who are part of the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 24 minutes ago, sweatalot said: While the monotheist religions say so others do not. They assume a law instead, the law of Karma for instance. I think that idea of a judging god ridiculous. Would only show his/her incomptence to create perfect humans. What about another Hypothesis: There is no god apart from us. Everything and everybody is god because if god is the ultimate then this God was the only presence in the beginning (if there was one). There was only God no space no matter. So God would be only consciousness which creates out of itself - and human consciousness is God's consciousness having purposefully forgotten its origin and playing God's game for some time. It is a mistake to think of god as a being outside ourselves or outside the universe. Your first comment is supposing that the God in your analogy intended to making beings that were incapable of error. Most monotheism show a God who is analyzing their choices. The perfect people in your analogy would not have legitimate free will. Which would make them very uninteresting, maybe meaningless. Assuming everything is God is commonly referred to as pantheism. This concept becomes problematic at the concept of origin. It is insufficient to explain itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 25 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Not at all, but if we compare God to an infinite universe, and all of that is pure consciousness, our individual consciousness are just little atoms who are part of the whole thing. But ultimately the god is created by the universe. And the universe is still searching for its source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 minute ago, canuckamuck said: But ultimately the god is created by the universe. And the universe is still searching for its source. No, i would rather say the opposite, IF God exists, he/she is the source of everything, thus non-created and non-born.. It defies logic, i know, but i accept the fact that my logic is limited. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, canuckamuck said: Your first comment is supposing that the God in your analogy intended to making beings that were incapable of error. Most monotheism show a God who is analyzing their choices. The perfect people in your analogy would not have legitimate free will. Which would make them very uninteresting, maybe meaningless. Assuming everything is God is commonly referred to as pantheism. This concept becomes problematic at the concept of origin. It is insufficient to explain itself. Origins is a problem Only in monotheism, With a Multitude of gods Origins is not a problem in fact The "Big Bang" might had been a result of A God Population explosion and form of "Lebensraum," Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: No, i would rather say the opposite, IF God exists, he/she is the source of everything, thus non-created and non-born.. It defies logic, i know, but i accept the fact that my logic is limited. But you are close to a logical solution. What if you were say God exists as an absolute value. And all things emanate from this absolute. The absolute is not created because it simply is 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, sirineou said: Origins is a problem Only in monotheism, With a Multitude of gods Origins is not a problem in fact The "Big Bang" might had been a result of A God Population explosion and form of "Lebensraum," Yes multiple gods open up unlimited possibilities. It does of course bring its own bag of problems. Also there would still logically need to be some version of an origin at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 hour ago, canuckamuck said: @mauGR1 For the sake of refining the discussion though, it is good to have some boundaries. Since monotheism is predominant, lets work that ground for now. I'll make the first suggestion. For a creator God to exist, he would need some extraordinary abilities. I'll make another suggestion then, he/she is beyond our range of imagination. At least as far as we are in the "cage" of our physical bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, canuckamuck said: But you are close to a logical solution. What if you were say God exists as an absolute value. And all things emanate from this absolute. The absolute is not created because it simply is Yes, it makes sense to me. At least this is the theory of countless wise men who have been pondering such questions for aeons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: I'll make another suggestion then, he/she is beyond our range of imagination. At least as far as we are in the "cage" of our physical bodies. Yes, without a doubt. But that does not inhibit discovery of what lies within our potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, canuckamuck said: Yes, without a doubt. But that does not inhibit discovery of what lies within our potential. That's correct. We are composed of different bodies, the physical body being just one of those. In theory, the range of discoveries is as infinite as the universe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, canuckamuck said: Yes multiple gods open up unlimited possibilities. It does of course bring its own bag of problems. Also there would still logically need to be some version of an origin at some point. Not necessarily , Zeno's paradox solves the origin problem, as an unattainable goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, sirineou said: Not necessarily , Zeno's paradox solves the origin problem, as an unattainable goal. Zeno's paradoxes are mostly a paradox of definition, but not observable realities. A fast runner will over take a slow runner. An object heading towards a target is always heading towards the halfway point which is continually reduced in distance making it impossible to arrive at the target. But we know that objects arrive at the target all the time. I believe calculus has solutions to these paradoxes. I did not find any paradox regarding origin however. But I do see how you could reverse the target paradox? Edited October 12, 2019 by canuckamuck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, canuckamuck said: But we know that objects arrive at the target all the time. Only from our perspective. But if god exists , it exists outside our reality. We are so far from understanding reality that. "More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. " https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy So IMO, to talk about God, and reality with any certainty is impossible at this time and perhaps ever. All I can say is that there are no evidence that there is a god, And that since I am not the one making the claim, it is the responsibility of the one making the claim to provide supporting evidence. Also to answer of why if there is a god, it need to be only one of them. Why not and infinite number of them. and since infinity is unapproachable why worry about origines? IMO ,. there is no God in the biblical sense, but as far as a pantheistic scene .......it simply becomes a mater of definitions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, sirineou said: Only from our perspective. But if god exists , it exists outside our reality. We are so far from understanding reality that. "More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. " https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy So IMO, to talk about God, and reality with any certainty is impossible at this time and perhaps ever. All I can say is that there are no evidence that there is a god, And that since I am not the one making the claim, it is the responsibility of the one making the claim to provide supporting evidence. Also to answer of why if there is a god, it need to be only one of them. Why not and infinite number of them. and since infinity is unapproachable why worry about origines? IMO ,. there is no God in the biblical sense, but as far as a pantheistic scene .......it simply becomes a mater of definitions. And what if there is a God? what is he/she/it is going to do. torture me for eternity for not believing the evidence he did not provide? What did he give me reason for? Edited October 12, 2019 by sirineou typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, sirineou said: Only from our perspective. But if god exists , it exists outside our reality. We are so far from understanding reality that. "More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. " https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy So IMO, to talk about God, and reality with any certainty is impossible at this time and perhaps ever. All I can say is that there are no evidence that there is a god, And that since I am not the one making the claim, it is the responsibility of the one making the claim to provide supporting evidence. Also to answer of why if there is a god, it need to be only one of them. Why not and infinite number of them. and since infinity is unapproachable why worry about origines? IMO ,. there is no God in the biblical sense, but as far as a pantheistic scene .......it simply becomes a mater of definitions. Why must God exist outside of our reality. Perhaps you mean to say beyond our comprehension? If God exists and He created us He is the most significant part of our reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Just now, canuckamuck said: Why must God exist outside of our reality. Perhaps you mean to say beyond our comprehension? If God exists and He created us He is the most significant part of our reality. To create our reality he must exist outside of it. You cannot create something that you are in , because for you to me in it it must already exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, sirineou said: And what if there is a God? what is he/she/it is going to do. torchur me for eternity for not believing the evidence he did not provide? What did he give me reason for? Establishing that God might exist is a separate concept from what are God's rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Just now, sirineou said: To create our reality he must exist outside of it. You cannot create something that you are in , because for you to me in it it must already exist. Well, i am sure that you are not the one who tells God what he can or cannot do ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Just now, canuckamuck said: Establishing that God might exist is a separate concept from what are God's rules. Sure, but in his book he does have some very specific rule about believing in him, abot fagets and eating shrimp. Though he seems to have have forgotten about the shrimp thing . LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: Well, i am sure that you are not the one who tells God what he can or cannot do ???? Sure am... that's why he gave me reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, sirineou said: To create our reality he must exist outside of it. You cannot create something that you are in , because for you to me in it it must already exist. Is the world part of your reality? Did you not come from the world? You cannot create the world that created you, that is true. And the world did not create itself. But that what created you must be part of your reality. But the origin of all cannot be unoriginal or created. God can only be the origin of all if God is an absolute value, a singularity that simply is. Edited October 12, 2019 by canuckamuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 minute ago, sirineou said: Sure am... that's why he gave me reason. To admit that reason has limits would sound reasonable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, mauGR1 said: To admit that reason has limits would sound reasonable to me. No I don't think so. IMO reason is the only thing that does not have limits. How could it? Reason is only limited by the amount of available information, but the availability of information changes constantly and increases exponentially. See Moore's law. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, sirineou said: No I don't think so. IMO reason is the only thing that does not have limits. How could it? Reason is only limited by the amount of available information, but the availability of information changes constantly and increases exponentially. See Moore's law. Fair enough, but obviously not all information are available, so if we don't even know if God exists or not, reasoning on God is more or less like walking on thin air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 minute ago, mauGR1 said: Fair enough, but obviously not all information are available, so if we don't even know if God exists or not, reasoning on God is more or less like walking on thin air. Sure but we both have the same available information. It befalls the one making the claim to provide evidence from the available pool of information. I could not reason the "Or Not" because I could not prove with absolute certainty a negative , only prove that based on the available set of evidence the same set of evidence that supports your claim, that there is no reason to believe that it exists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mauGR1 Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, sirineou said: Sure but we both have the same available information. It befalls the one making the claim to provide evidence from the available pool of information. I could not reason the "Or Not" because I could not prove with absolute certainty a negative , only prove that based on the available set of evidence the same set of evidence that supports your claim, that there is no reason to believe that it exists. Well, again, many wise men having this debate since aeons, could not show any evidence of God or its non-existence. Promise you, if i get some evidence, positive or not, i'll send you a postcard ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylophone Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elad Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, soalbundy said: It doesn't matter what you believe in because it's all speculation, concepts, ideas. Several Eastern philosophies match the latest scientific hypothesis that nothing exists as a 'reality' let alone God. At its basic, reality is no more than electrically charged particles in formation. Change the formation and change reality. The only question we have to answer on this thread is "who is in charge of arranging the particles", and, is there a being in charge or is it all just a gigantic mistake that just happened, all by itself- just popped into existence from nothing? Perhaps our universe is just a school science project in an alternate universe, and it is now just a bauble on Rosenburg's cat's collar. Edited October 12, 2019 by thaibeachlovers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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