Anger over Brexit sparks new grassroots drive for Scottish independence

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, baboon said:

Rudy, d' you know what, I am starting to give in. I want a United Kingdom. I don't want Scotland to leave and consign the rest of us in the North of England to eternal Tory rule. I am quite desperate, in fact. 

But in a way who can blame the Scots these days? Were I a Scot, I would probably join you. Who wouldn't want to be rid of Westminster these days?

I genuinely understand the sentiment, and while it has been more than a few years since Scots elected a majority of Tory MPs (1955 according to Wikipedia, when, interestingly enough, the SNP took a total of 0.5% of the country's votes), the truth is that Scottish votes have only swung the results of a GE on 3 occasions since 1945. I hate to say it, but the situation we are in now is not a Scottish construct, and if we stay, I don't think we will be key to deciding the future direction of a United Kingdom. 

 

Easy to say, I know, but if your circumstances permitted it, you could move north of the border and I can guarantee you would be warmly welcomed. The weather is not much worse than you will be used to from the north of England, but the future could be so much brighter. 

[aright]

20 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I genuinely understand the sentiment, and while it has been more than a few years since Scots elected a majority of Tory MPs (1955 according to Wikipedia, when, interestingly enough, the SNP took a total of 0.5% of the country's votes), the truth is that Scottish votes have only swung the results of a GE on 3 occasions since 1945. I hate to say it, but the situation we are in now is not a Scottish construct, and if we stay, I don't think we will be key to deciding the future direction of a United Kingdom. 

 

Easy to say, I know, but if your circumstances permitted it, you could move north of the border and I can guarantee you would be warmly welcomed. The weather is not much worse than you will be used to from the north of England, but the future could be so much brighter. 

A bright future and a 4 day working week. What more could you want? 

[AlexRich]

16 minutes ago, aright said:

A bright future and a 4 day working week. What more could you want? 

Do you have a job? I'd guess not ... an OAP?

[aright]

I own 2 businesses you?

[RuamRudy]

A bright future and a 4 day working week. What more could you want? 

I'm intrigued - why would you mention a 4 day work week?

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[aright]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I'm intrigued - why would you mention a 4 day work week?

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SNP to vote on backing four-day working week

 

A vote may be held at next month’s SNP conference on whether Scotland should adopt a four-day working week.

Delagates will be asked whether to support the resolution brought forward by Renfrewshire South MSP Tom Arthur and Lanark and Hamilton East MP Angela Crawley.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-to-vote-on-backing-four-day-working-week-1-4883335

 

[Nigel Garvie]

17 minutes ago, aright said:

SNP to vote on backing four-day working week

 

A vote may be held at next month’s SNP conference on whether Scotland should adopt a four-day working week.

Delagates will be asked whether to support the resolution brought forward by Renfrewshire South MSP Tom Arthur and Lanark and Hamilton East MP Angela Crawley.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-to-vote-on-backing-four-day-working-week-1-4883335

 

Fair enough, but it should be emphasized that it is just a discussion about possibilities.

 

“Conference calls on the Scottish Government to undertake a review into how working practices should be adapted to meet the needs of the future economy, including the possibility of a four-day working week, with a view to possible reform." 

It sounds daft of course, I am self employed and work 7 days a week. However the world is changing and so many younger people are working from home, or thousands of miles away, on their computers. My issue is with State employees (whose grossly overinflated occupational pensions are subsidized by the taxpayer) many of whom are hardly managing to do 4 days work a week anyway, even if they attend for 5. 

It is indeed a complex issue and at least worth discussing.

[RuamRudy]

SNP to vote on backing four-day working week

 

A vote may be held at next month’s SNP conference on whether Scotland should adopt a four-day working week.

Delagates will be asked whether to support the resolution brought forward by Renfrewshire South MSP Tom Arthur and Lanark and Hamilton East MP Angela Crawley.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-to-vote-on-backing-four-day-working-week-1-4883335

 

That assumes that the motion passes and that the SNP will be in government post indy. I am not even sure that the SNP will remain in its current form once its principle objective has been accomplished.

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[aright]

35 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Fair enough, but it should be emphasized that it is just a discussion about possibilities.

 

“Conference calls on the Scottish Government to undertake a review into how working practices should be adapted to meet the needs of the future economy, including the possibility of a four-day working week, with a view to possible reform." 

It sounds daft of course, I am self employed and work 7 days a week. However the world is changing and so many younger people are working from home, or thousands of miles away, on their computers. My issue is with State employees (whose grossly overinflated occupational pensions are subsidized by the taxpayer) many of whom are hardly managing to do 4 days work a week anyway, even if they attend for 5. 

It is indeed a complex issue and at least worth discussing.

Yes, I understand it's not cast in stone yet. Some years ago, living in the USA, I worked for a company which wanted to balance the needs of its workforce (4 day week) and the Company (factory output). They did this by working 4x10hr days which met the needs of factory personnel, maintained the wage structure  and it worked surprisingly well. After 6 mths of mutual satisfaction, greater output as a result of one less daily start up, hours were changed to Mon-Wed 10hrs/day, Thurs 8hrs. Win win.

Edited May 19, 2019 by aright

[RuamRudy]

What a difference 3 years and a complete lack of principles can make. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

Poor Ruth - the sole thrust of her EU election campaign in Scotland to date has been 'No more divisive referendums', and what does her boss go and do but propose another divisive referendum!

 

Does anyone still want to argue that her star is in the ascension?

 

 

 

[aright]

SNP trying to 'fool the public' separate Scottish currency would be pegged to pound

 

The SNP's Westminster leader has been accused of trying to hoodwink voters after claiming an independent Scotland could afford to keep a new currency linked to the pound's value. 

Ian Blackford disclosed that the Nationalists wanted a separate Scotland's currency to be pegged to sterling to prevent the value of pensions and savings being eroded.

 

https://flipboard.com/@TheTelegraph/snp-trying-to-'fool-the-public'-separate-scottish-currency-would-be-pegged-to-po/a-RY4dxYZLSriF1PnMY2bMxw%3Aa%3A3199678-4135578545/co.uk

 

 

[RuamRudy]

So it appears that the Scottish public did, as Ruth requested, send a message to Nicola - just not the message that Ruth was hoping for. With one count still to be completed, the SNP received more votes than Labour, Tory, Brexit and UKIP combined. 

 

Explicitly remain parties received 62% of the vote, very reflective of the Brexit referendum results, but that excludes those Labour and Tory remainers who voted along party lines. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

Words cannot express just how much satisfaction this picture gives me. 

[aright]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

So it appears that the Scottish public did, as Ruth requested, send a message to Nicola - just not the message that Ruth was hoping for. With one count still to be completed, the SNP received more votes than Labour, Tory, Brexit and UKIP combined. 

 

Explicitly remain parties received 62% of the vote, very reflective of the Brexit referendum results, but that excludes those Labour and Tory remainers who voted along party lines. 

 

 

Impressive result, although on a low turnout. If they got 38% in a Scottish Parliamentary election they could not govern alone. I would have thought a 15% vote for a Brexit Party which is only 6 weeks old significant.

Does this mean that Nicola is now going to insist that Scotland have an Independence Referendum or is she just going to keep banging on about it like she has since the last referendum? From what you say there will never be a better time than now.

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, aright said:

Does this mean that Nicola is now going to insist that Scotland have an Independence Referendum or is she just going to keep banging on about it like she has since the last referendum? From what you say there will never be a better time than now.

I certainly hope so. I am not in the SNP so cannot claim to know what their thinking is, but on Twitter there are many who are starting to question whether she will actually take the plunge, or whether she is quite happy with her lot as it currently stands.

 

This is in the Scotsman from Saturday:

 

Scottish Government to set out plans for indyref2 within days of Theresa May’s departure

 

"The Scottish Government is poised to set out plans for a second independence referendum, along with citizens’ assemblies to help shape future constitutional change, within days of Theresa May’s departure as Tory leader.

Constitutional relations secretary Michael Russell is to update MSPs at Holyrood, possibly as early as this week, as the SNP Government prepares to push forward with legislation for another vote on leaving the UK."

 

[malagateddy]

Words cannot express just how much satisfaction this picture gives me. 

Funny..why no Brexit areas..was it an snp drawing??

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[malagateddy]

Impressive result, although on a low turnout. If they got 38% in a Scottish Parliamentary election they could not govern alone. I would have thought a 15% vote for a Brexit Party which is only 6 weeks old significant.
Does this mean that Nicola is now going to insist that Scotland have an Independence Referendum or is she just going to keep banging on about it like she has since the last referendum? From what you say there will never be a better time than now.

Do you honestly think that scottish TAXPAYERS would vote for independance knowing that at least 70% of their wages or salarys would go on all the various taxes???

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[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Funny..why no Brexit areas..was it an snp drawing??

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No, the reason there are no Brexit areas is that, on the whole, we don't like it very much...

[aright]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

No, the reason there are no Brexit areas is that, on the whole, we don't like it very much...

We understand that. Before Nicola asks for another referendum are you going to decide on a currency and are you going to explain why the books didn't balance when Brent Crude was $120 a barrel and it's now  $60.

In the pub the other night someone suggested you are going to use bottle tops with each top being worth £5. You could get a bottle of Grouse for 3 bottle tops. Talking of which where is the man....I miss the old bugger.....(Please don't take this seriously)

On a much more serious note I read in a magazine the other day there are 17500 British Civil Service jobs in Scotland which will all move south when you leave. How are you going to cope with that?

 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

We understand that. Before Nicola asks for another referendum are you going to decide on a currency and are you going to explain why the books didn't balance when Brent Crude was $120 a barrel and it's now  $60.

In the pub the other night someone suggested you are going to use bottle tops with each top being worth £5. You could get a bottle of Grouse for 3 bottle tops. Talking of which where is the man....I miss the old bugger.....(Please don't take this seriously)

On a much more serious note I read in a magazine the other day there are 17500 British Civil Service jobs in Scotland which will all move south when you leave. How are you going to cope with that?

 

It's hard to know where to start to address such a raft of concerns, and all are very pertinent questions - I understand that many potential Yes voters in 2014 bottled out at the last minute because the economic questions were not satisfactorily addressed. I think that the SNP has taken that on board; certainly, the Angus Robertson led initiative is meant to be identifying the weaknesses in the perceived case.

 

Are you sure that the books didn't balance? If so, you are in a very unique situation as the picture of Scottish finances (or any other UK partner country for that matter) is very muddied. Currently, Scotland sends through direct taxation 58 billion to the exchequer. The Scottish Gov receives back 30 billion for its spending plans, and the UK Government claims to spend a further 43 billion on behalf of Scotland. That is the origin of the mythical 15 billion deficit. What is not included in the 58 billion, however, is VAT revenue, tax on goods produced in Scotland but exported from English ports, oil and gas production from Scottish fields but landed elsewhere, etc etc, so the true value of Scottish contributions to the UK economy is higher than stated but totally unclear. 

 

In respect to the above, it is possibly worth questioning the figures with a sceptical mind. For example, Scotland, with a plethora of natural resources, whisky, unemployment at 3.5%, has a reported GDP per capita figure of $43,700. Ireland, on the other hand, with a highly skilled workforce but very limited natural resources and unemployment at 5.4% has a GDP per capita of $69,200. Is it really credible that Ireland could have a GDP per capita more than a third higher than Scotland? I am not so sure. 

 

With regards to civil service jobs, I presume that these positions currently fulfil a UK wide service rather than serving non-Scottish residents? Therefore it would be realistic to assume that these services would need to be replicated in an independent Scotland. SImilarly, those services provided by agencies located elsewhere in the UK will need to be replicated north of the border, so more jobs to be created - and already a strong pool of highly educated people ready to continue in what they were previously doing. 

I, too, have wondered where Grouse ended up - I hope he hasn't been sin binned once too often. I am sure he would be having a field day on some of the other threads at the moment!

[malagateddy]

It's hard to know where to start to address such a raft of concerns, and all are very pertinent questions - I understand that many potential Yes voters in 2014 bottled out at the last minute because the economic questions were not satisfactorily addressed. I think that the SNP has taken that on board; certainly, the Angus Robertson led initiative is meant to be identifying the weaknesses in the perceived case.
 
Are you sure that the books didn't balance? If so, you are in a very unique situation as the picture of Scottish finances (or any other UK partner country for that matter) is very muddied. Currently, Scotland sends through direct taxation 58 billion to the exchequer. The Scottish Gov receives back 30 billion for its spending plans, and the UK Government claims to spend a further 43 billion on behalf of Scotland. That is the origin of the mythical 15 billion deficit. What is not included in the 58 billion, however, is VAT revenue, tax on goods produced in Scotland but exported from English ports, oil and gas production from Scottish fields but landed elsewhere, etc etc, so the true value of Scottish contributions to the UK economy is higher than stated but totally unclear. 
 
In respect to the above, it is possibly worth questioning the figures with a sceptical mind. For example, Scotland, with a plethora of natural resources, whisky, unemployment at 3.5%, has a reported GDP per capita figure of $43,700. Ireland, on the other hand, with a highly skilled workforce but very limited natural resources and unemployment at 5.4% has a GDP per capita of $69,200. Is it really credible that Ireland could have a GDP per capita more than a third higher than Scotland? I am not so sure. 
 
With regards to civil service jobs, I presume that these positions currently fulfil a UK wide service rather than serving non-Scottish residents? Therefore it would be realistic to assume that these services would need to be replicated in an independent Scotland. SImilarly, those services provided by agencies located elsewhere in the UK will need to be replicated north of the border, so more jobs to be created - and already a strong pool of highly educated people ready to continue in what they were previously doing. 

I, too, have wondered where Grouse ended up - I hope he hasn't been sin binned once too often. I am sure he would be having a field day on some of the other threads at the moment!

Eire is an eu subsidy junkie member state...British and German taxpayers money keeps eire financially afloat.

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[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Do you honestly think that scottish TAXPAYERS would vote for independance knowing that at least 70% of their wages or salarys would go on all the various taxes???

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Without wishing to prejudice my position on the validity of your actual comments, allow me to introduce a point made by someone on another thread:

 

 

[baboon]

2 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Eire is an eu subsidy junkie member state...British and German taxpayers money keeps eire financially afloat.

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Is money your main concern in life?

[sanemax]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

No, the reason there are no Brexit areas is that, on the whole, we don't like it very much...

Scottish Independence from the UK doesnt like UK's independence from the E.U ? 

[RuamRudy]

Just now, sanemax said:

Scottish Independence from the UK doesnt like UK's independence from the E.U ? 

Imagine a situation where you were forced to hand over almost all of your salary to your neighbour for them to decide how much they will return to you so that you could pay your own household costs. Then they also decided how much they would charge you for the extra services they choose to allocate to you whether you wanted them or not, but the accounts are vague, unclear and not open for scrutiny, so you have to accept whatever they tell you that you owe. 

 

Then imagine your neighbour decided that he wasn't happy with the membership you enjoyed at the local sports club, so he told you that you had to leave, even though you and your family strongly felt that the club offered good services and value for money, and that you repeatedly demonstrated that you wanted to remain a member. 

 

One day you decide that you have had enough and you want to canvas your family to stop this arrangement - but in order to break the arrangement with your neighbour, you need to request his permission to even ask your family if they want to end it. But when you ask your neighbour if you can canvas your household, he tells you 'now is not the time' because he is too busy screwing up both his house and yours to appease his political party which has been rejected by your own household in every single election since 1955.

 

Does any of this seem fair to you?

 

So, that little fable aside, bear in mind that the UK did not require the permission of the EU to hold the Brexit referendum. 

[sanemax]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Imagine a situation where you were forced to hand over almost all of your salary to your neighbour for them to decide how much they will return to you so that you could pay your own household costs. Then they also decided how much they would charge you for the extra services they choose to allocate to you whether you wanted them or not, but the accounts are vague, unclear and not open for scrutiny, so you have to accept whatever they tell you that you owe. 

 

 

The UK is in that situation with the E.U.

[RuamRudy]

The UK is in that situation with the E.U.

The UK did not need the permission of the EU to hold the Brexit referendum.

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[sanemax]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

The UK did not need the permission of the EU to hold the Brexit referendum.

 

The UK needed the permission of the UK Government though , just like Scotland does

[aright]

6 minutes ago, sanemax said:

The UK is in that situation with the E.U.

Yes I have never understood the logic that Scotland wants to be independent of the UK then to join the EU.

The EU is obviously for independent nations who want to cede their independence to a bigger, undemocratic entity.

There has to be a logic deficit in there somewhere.