Pattaya Versus DaNang and the winner is?

[lamyai3]

On 5/18/2019 at 11:07 PM, KittenKong said:

I see no evidence at all that Vietnam wants retirees more than short-term tourists. Nor do I see any evidence that Vietnam wants anything other than money from either group.

True. Other than the introduction of the 15 day visa waiver for certain countries in recent years (a definite stimulus to short term tourism), Vietnam's visa system is little changed in the past couple of decades, probably because long stay expats are still sufficiently small in number to have made too much of an impact there.

 

Thailand in the past has surely had the most lax visa system that could be found anywhere. 15 or 20 years ago it was easy to get any kind of visa easily, overstay at 200 baht a day with impunity (as long as you avoided trouble with the cops), make endless back to back border runs... heck, for a while agents would even cart passports off to the border for exit/entry stamps to save you the trouble. The pendulum has swung back the other way in recent years in a pretty extreme manner, making Vietnam and other places look pretty liberal in comparison right now. But twasn't ever thus, and there's no guarantee that they and other countries wouldn't tighten things up if a lot more people started to arrive and stay long term. 

[lamyai3]

On 5/16/2019 at 1:04 PM, Destiny1990 said:

Kinda hoping for more posts from some Thailand expats retirees who recently moved to Vietnam  and share their experiences here.

There was a great one earlier in the year titled "It's painful to watch" which turned into a very extensive and interesting thread. Sadly it was removed, I presume at the request of the OP. 

[Destiny1990]

39 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

True. Other than the introduction of the 15 day visa waiver for certain countries in recent years (a definite stimulus to short term tourism), Vietnam's visa system is little changed in the past couple of decades, probably because long stay expats are still sufficiently small in number to have made too much of an impact there.

 

Thailand in the past has surely had the most lax visa system that could be found anywhere. 15 or 20 years ago it was easy to get any kind of visa easily, overstay at 200 baht a day with impunity (as long as you avoided trouble with the cops), make endless back to back border runs... heck, for a while agents would even cart passports off to the border for exit/entry stamps to save you the trouble. The pendulum has swung back the other way in recent years in a pretty extreme manner, making Vietnam and other places look pretty liberal in comparison right now. But twasn't ever thus, and there's no guarantee that they and other countries wouldn't tighten things up if a lot more people started to arrive and stay long term. 

Yeah they certainly have tighten it up so now new coming expats will obviously choose an easier elsewhere to stay long term destination. Cambodia Phillipines Malaysia  etc etc all have more laid back visa extensions..

Thailand gets assumingely nowadays enough income from short term holiday makers.

No hard feelings it is how it is. 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Destiny1990

[LongTimeLurker]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:28 PM, KittenKong said:

And no one-year extension either, from what I understand.

 

I want one stamp in my passport that ensures me at least a year.

I get 6 months on entry, and can extend that every 6 months.

[LongTimeLurker]

On 5/13/2019 at 2:03 AM, NanLaew said:

Good to know but if you weren't married to a local lass, would you:

 

A ) Still qualify for the TR and/or PR, and

 

B ) Want to commit to those options anyway?

 

There are plenty foreigners that have gained Thai PR and even citizenship over the years, all under varying circumstances and with different motivations. With Thailand's ongoing and arguably intensifying state of flux with regard to who they want to live here long-term, I would imagine the desirability of either is much reduced.

 

With regard to the single retiree, beyond lower cost and apparently less bureaucratic rigmarole, what exactly makes Vietnam such a hot deal in this regard?

A) Yes, but you'd need to be working there.

 

B) Yes

 

To get Thai PR you have to have been working here.

[KhunHeineken]

On 5/19/2019 at 12:06 PM, grifbel said:

why would they want retirees?  They do not pay income tax, use social infrastructure for free and are a net economic cost to the system.  Would be interested to hear your proof for this outrageous claim.

Firstly, by definition of "retired" you pay no income tax from working, because you are retired.  Income tax may be paid on investments, but not from working, because you are retired, whether that be in Thailand, Vietnam, or your home country.  Retirees do, however, pay VAT, and various property taxes, fees, and excises. 

 

What social infrastructure do retirees use for free????

 

If they use a highway, they pay a toll, like anyone else.  If they go to the hospital, it's cash up front for treatment.  If they have electric, phone, internet, water connected, they pay the bill like anyone else, some of which, contributes to infrastructure. 

 

How are they a net economic loss? 

 

Retirees provide employment.  They are consumers of leisure activities.  Eg. golf, massage etc.  They are also consumers of agricultural products, supporting local farmers.  Their input into the property market, particularly in the tourist areas, is considerable.  The open a bank account and flow money through it, thus have an input into the banking system.

 

Not so long ago, Vietnam allowed foreigners to own property, so, I would suggest they are targeting retirees, not foreigners working for a multinational company that has accommodation supplied by the company, or is part of their salary package.  

 

They have an easy long term visa system, which is obviously aimed at retirees, not tourists.  The Americans in particular get a easy and cheap long term visa in Vietnam. 

 

So, I would say Vietnam is looking to attract foreign retirees. 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 5/19/2019 at 2:07 AM, KittenKong said:

I see no evidence at all that Vietnam wants retirees more than short-term tourists. Nor do I see any evidence that Vietnam wants anything other than money from either group.

 

If Vietnam wanted retirees it would introduce a proper retirement visa or extension, like Thailand's. Maybe it will one day.

Vietnam's visa system is so easy that they don't need to create a specific retirement visa class.

[KittenKong]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Firstly, by definition of "retired" you pay no income tax from working, because you are retired.  Income tax may be paid on investments, but not from working, because you are retired, whether that be in Thailand, Vietnam, or your home country.  Retirees do, however, pay VAT, and various property taxes, fees, and excises.

My Thai retirement extension only requires me to be over 50. It does not require me to be retired.

 

And there are people who are "retired" and who continue to work in my home country, and others, and they pay income tax on their earnings too.

 

Personally I stopped working when I was 50 but I dont consider myself really retired as I dont get a pension yet and wont until I am 66.

[KittenKong]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Vietnam's visa system is so easy that they don't need to create a specific retirement visa class.

Or, to put it another way, everyone there is considered to be a short-term tourist and is treated accordingly. So really just the same as people who are in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas. I think that my yearly retirement extension is a step up from that.

[KittenKong]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

They have an easy long term visa system, which is obviously aimed at retirees, not tourists.  The Americans in particular get a easy and cheap long term visa in Vietnam. 

 

So, I would say Vietnam is looking to attract foreign retirees. 

I am not American so I dont really care about "special offers" being made available to Americans.

 

If Vietnam really wants to attract foreign retirees then perhaps it should create a long-term visa that is specifically designed for them, as other countries in the region do. Currently they are not doing this.

 

[brokenbone]

On 5/24/2019 at 1:15 AM, lamyai3 said:

There was a great one earlier in the year titled "It's painful to watch" which turned into a very extensive and interesting thread. Sadly it was removed, I presume at the request of the OP. 

no, marcusarlus kept trolling until it got closed,

i also wanted that thread, i even bookmarked it cause it was informative

[DrTuner]

4 hours ago, KittenKong said:

So really just the same as people who are in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas. I think that my yearly retirement extension is a step up from that.

It's a small step "up", as it goes tourist (including elite program) - non immigrant (long term tourist, perks are longer extensions and some minor help with government offices) - permanent residence (hard to get) - nationality. Still can be kicked out any time. 

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

Still can be kicked out any time. 

That applies to anyone, anywhere. Only your home country can't kick you out.

[sanemax]

All the former Thai ex-pats  on retirement visa in Thailand , telling all the long term Thai stayers on tourist visas to "get proper visas" , now living in Vietnam on tourist visas ????

[JSixpack]

4 hours ago, sanemax said:

All the former Thai ex-pats  on retirement visa in Thailand , telling all the long term Thai stayers on tourist visas to "get proper visas" , now living in Vietnam on tourist visas ????

Another fantasy. Reference some posts from such.

[HuskerDo]

On 4/26/2019 at 9:04 PM, KittenKong said:

They go on the menu.

YES!! Yummy Hot Dogs!! ???? 

Edited June 1, 2019 by HuskerDo

[KhunHeineken]

22 hours ago, KittenKong said:

My Thai retirement extension only requires me to be over 50. It does not require me to be retired.

 

And there are people who are "retired" and who continue to work in my home country, and others, and they pay income tax on their earnings too.

 

Personally I stopped working when I was 50 but I dont consider myself really retired as I dont get a pension yet and wont until I am 66.

That is not true. 

 

There are a lot more requirements to receiving a retirement visa in Thailand, than just being over 50.  800,000 baht or 65,000 baht a month, and all the associated paperwork with the lump sum, or the monthly transfers. 

 

It's my understanding that you are not actually supposed to be working, at all, anywhere, with a Thai retirement visa, although many over 50 have a retirement visa, but still continue to work, outside of Thailand.   So, Thailand sees no income tax from this demographic.

 

Many western countries now have laws where most people coming through will never qualify for a government pension.  The laws are structured in a way where if you have an amount of savings, property, or investments that are over a threshold, you will not qualify for a government pension, and if you do, it may be on a sliding scale to zero pension. 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

22 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Or, to put it another way, everyone there is considered to be a short-term tourist and is treated accordingly. So really just the same as people who are in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas. I think that my yearly retirement extension is a step up from that.

You seem to liken your retirement visa, or extension, to Thai permanent residency, which is misleading to readers.  It is far from that. 

 

A Thai retirement visa is more likened to a 1 year tourist visa, because you have no more rights on the retirement visa than someone on a 30 day visa exemption stamp.  The only benefit is, it's lasts for 12 months, rather than 60 or 90 days, for a tourist visa with an extension, but then again, you are jumping through a lot more hoops for the 12 months. 

 

You promote Thailand's use of the word "retirement" in their visa classes.  What if Thailand had a 1 year multi entry tourist visa for $400USD, flat fee, no other requirements?  Would that visa be any less secure than a retirement visa?

 

Visas can be cancelled, revoked, restricted at any time.  They can also change the laws around the criteria needed to obtain a visa, as we have recently seen. 

 

Just because the word "retirement" is used to describe the visa, doesn't mean other countries that just allow someone to reside on 12 months tourist visas are any less secure.   

[KittenKong]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

That is not true. 

 

There are a lot more requirements to receiving a retirement visa in Thailand, than just being over 50.  800,000 baht or 65,000 baht a month, and all the associated paperwork with the lump sum, or the monthly transfers. 

I have a retirement extension, not a retirement visa.

 

Paperwork for my lump sum deposit has nothing to do with whether I am retired or not.

 

Nowhere on any of my application papers or in the police order relating to the retirement extension does it say that I have to be retired. It just says that I have to be over 50.

 

No check is ever made as to whether people are actually retired or not, and in fact I dont really see how such a check could be made. I know several people who have retirement extensions here and who work full-time in the oil and shipping industries abroad. They work without any days off for several weeks, then spend several weeks here before leaving to start again. I know a couple of pilots who also live here on retirement extensions.

[KhunHeineken]

23 hours ago, KittenKong said:

I am not American so I dont really care about "special offers" being made available to Americans.

 

If Vietnam really wants to attract foreign retirees then perhaps it should create a long-term visa that is specifically designed for them, as other countries in the region do. Currently they are not doing this.

 

I only mentioned the deal Americans get because it's such a great deal, and the American consulate is one of the consulates not issuing income letters anymore.  Many Americans have been posting in the visa forum about their options.

 

Vietnam doesn't need to simply name a visa "retirement" to attract retirees.  Their system is so easy one can live there, even if under 50, on their tourist or business visas. 

 

I do concede that, currently, someone on tourist visas is required to cross a boarder once every 12 months, but you can come straight back in for another 12 months, and for me, that's a small price to pay to not have to move 800,000 baht or show 65,000 baht transfers, and all the other paperwork needed.

 

Vietnam does offer temporary residency for 2 or 3 years, but many do not bother with this as their long term tourist visas is such an easy system. 

[KittenKong]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You promote Thailand's use of the word "retirement" in their visa classes.  What if Thailand had a 1 year multi entry tourist visa for $400USD, flat fee, no other requirements?  Would that visa be any less secure than a retirement visa?

That would be acceptable. But as far as I can see Vietnam does not offer this to me at the moment. Nor do Cambodia or Laos or India. Several other countries in the region do, at least in the form of retirement permits (Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, Sri Lanka .....)

 

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Visas can be cancelled, revoked, restricted at any time.

I'm aware of that and I am happy to take my chances with it. But I still feel more comfortable with a one-year stamp in my passport than having to ask for a renewal every month or every three months or whatever.

[KhunHeineken]

18 hours ago, DrTuner said:

It's a small step "up", as it goes tourist (including elite program) - non immigrant (long term tourist, perks are longer extensions and some minor help with government offices) - permanent residence (hard to get) - nationality. Still can be kicked out any time. 

Can you name something someone on a retirement visa can do that someone on a tourist visa can not do, other than length of stay?

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, KittenKong said:

That applies to anyone, anywhere. Only your home country can't kick you out.

Correct.  So why do you feel so secure because your visa simply says "retirement?" 

 

Also, it's not so much about being kicked out, than about the goal posts being changed.  The health insurance requirement being the next change I think we will see, but also possibly an increase to the amount on deposit or the monthly income amount. 

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I have a retirement extension, not a retirement visa.

 

Paperwork for my lump sum deposit has nothing to do with whether I am retired or not.

 

Nowhere on any of my application papers or in the police order relating to the retirement extension does it say that I have to be retired. It just says that I have to be over 50.

 

No check is ever made as to whether people are actually retired or not, and in fact I dont really see how such a check could be made. I know several people who have retirement extensions here and who work full-time in the oil and shipping industries abroad. They work without any days off for several weeks, then spend several weeks here before leaving to start again. I know a couple of pilots who also live here on retirement extensions.

What I am saying is the retirement visa comes with a lot of requirements to meet, not just being over 50. 

 

I am not 100% sure of this, perhaps another member can post, but it is my understanding one should not be working, at all, anywhere, whilst on a Thai retirement visa. 

 

I can only think this is because the Thai's do not want people using their retirement visas as basically a 1 year multi entry tourist visa, but I could be wrong about this law. 

 

Of course, what happens in reality is often different to what is in Thai law.  

[KhunHeineken]

17 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

That would be acceptable. But as far as I can see Vietnam does not offer this to me at the moment. Nor do Cambodia or Laos or India. Several other countries in the region do, at least in the form of retirement permits (Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, Sri Lanka .....)

 

I'm aware of that and I am happy to take my chances with it. But I still feel more comfortable with a one-year stamp in my passport than having to ask for a renewal every month or every three months or whatever.

Cambodia offer a 1 year multi entry business visa for around $300USD.

 

Vietnam was offering a 1 year multi entry business visa, but they are currently suspended, but will be available again soon.  Currently, Vietnam offers 3 month tourist visas that can be extended, inside Vietnam, 3 times, so there's the 1 year anyway. 

 

In Thailand you have to report every 90 days.  In Vietnam, give your passport to an agent and pay a small fee every 90 days and you end up with your 1 year.

 

No difference to a 1 year stamp with 90 day reports, but a lot lot less paperwork and requirements and financials, for the same length of stay.  

 

I know you are comfortable with the 1 year Thai extension, but other countries are offering a similar product, with a lot less requirements to meet, which surely offers comfort to many as well.

Edited June 2, 2019 by KhunHeineken

[KittenKong]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So why do you feel so secure because your visa simply says "retirement?" 

I dont. I feel more secure because it is valid for one year and because the system under which it is issued has been going - largely unchanged - for decades.

 

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

What I am saying is the retirement visa comes with a lot of requirements to meet, not just being over 50.

For me these requirements are minimal. I just have to put 800kB in the bank and get one letter from the bank every year. This is no big deal.

 

The Thai retirement extension is very cheap, very efficient and very easy as far as I am concerned. It costs me a total of 2000B (assuming I dont want to leave the country) and about 1 hour of my time, once a year. Even if I want to leave the country many times in the year it only costs a maximum of 3900B extra.

This, combined with the income tax provisions here, seems to be superior to anything else on offer to me in any other country in the region.

[KittenKong]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

In Thailand you have to report every 90 days.  In Vietnam, give your passport to an agent and pay a small fee every 90 days and you end up with your 1 year.

90-day reporting can be done online or by post. Anyone who leaves the country often may not even need to do the 90-day reporting at all (I travel so I generally only do it once or twice a year).

 

And I live just a few minutes walk from Jomtien immigration office where it takes me well under 5 minutes to do my reporting. No fees or agents involved.

 

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Vietnam was offering a 1 year multi entry business visa, but they are currently suspended, but will be available again soon.

When (if) it happens I may think again. But this is very vague compared to my retirement extension here. I have never had any surprises with this and I get one every year without any issues at all. Vietnam seems much less reliable.

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

I dont. I feel more secure because it is valid for one year and because the system under which it is issued has been going - largely unchanged - for decades.

 

For me these requirements are minimal. I just have to put 800kB in the bank and get one letter from the bank every year. This is no big deal.

 

The Thai retirement extension is very cheap, very efficient and very easy as far as I am concerned. It costs me a total of 2000B (assuming I dont want to leave the country) and about 1 hour of my time, once a year. Even if I want to leave the country many times in the year it only costs a maximum of 3900B extra.

This, combined with the income tax provisions here, seems to be superior to anything else on offer to me in any other country in the region.

800,000 baht left untouched for 5 months.  400,000 baht of it left untouched for 12 months.

 

Bank letters.

 

TM30's, even for living in your own house.

 

90 day reports.

 

Re Entry permits.

 

Hand drawn maps of where you live.

 

If on marriage visa, photos of you and your wife in the bedroom. 

 

10 photocopies of of everything.

 

Certified translated copies.

 

Visits from immigration officers.

 

And the list of bureaucratic red tape and paperwork continues, with insurance sure to be the next "fee" to pay and certificate needed.

 

The other countries, pay a flat fee and get your visa, or extension.  Nothing else to do.  You don't even need a local bank account. 

 

I know which one I am more comfortable with.  ????

[steven100]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

800,000 baht left untouched for 5 months.  400,000 baht of it left untouched for 12 months.

 

Bank letters.

 

TM30's, even for living in your own house.

 

90 day reports.

 

Re Entry permits.

 

Hand drawn maps of where you live.

 

If on marriage visa, photos of you and your wife in the bedroom. 

 

10 photocopies of of everything.

 

Certified translated copies.

 

Visits from immigration officers.

 

And the list of bureaucratic red tape and paperwork continues, with insurance sure to be the next "fee" to pay and certificate needed.

 

The other countries, pay a flat fee and get your visa, or extension.  Nothing else to do.  You don't even need a local bank account. 

 

I know which one I am more comfortable with.  ????

Email this to the head huncho at Immigration ...  let him know .   imo

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Vietnam seems much less reliable.

I understand your thinking.

 

You are not the only Thai expat that to think that just because another system is so cheap and easy, there must be something wrong with it, or it's not reliable. 

 

It's because it so cheap and easy that this offers that much more flexibility, and this is why it is so reliabe.

 

There will always be a visa method for one to reside in Vietnam, even if under 50 and / or with no other requirements, something totally different to Thailand, which actually makes the Vietnam system more reliable. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by KhunHeineken