How many countries are not issuing income letters anymore

[perconrad]

19 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Only the countries you mentioned. 

 

Apparently the Danish Embassy is still issuing a Letter of Income if the income is from a state pension. 

Issuing for both private and state pensions

[Thailand]

An observation with the dilemma faced by Chinese retiring here.

I know quite a few, one family in particular comprising 3 generations 4 of whom are using the 800K "retirement" route. That family will now have to tie up a minimum of 1.6 million (4 x 400K) which they had not accounted for when they arrived last year. Monthly income routes seem to be out of the window for most from what I can gather as they are loathe to involve their embassies in any disclosures and I don't think the embassy would provide any from of affidavit /declaration  although not sure about that one.

It appears agents are the main route for renewals of extensions of stay.

[chilly07]

All embassies are capable of verifying income sources via pension and tax records providing applicants grant permission. The embassies that now don't probably had a "business/pecuniary reason" for ceasing which is probably illegal. Service to expats was the least of their concerns despite being supported by taxes paid by those expats. UK frozen pensions despite years of Nat Insurance payments and full UK tax payments on those pensions clearly demonstrates the UK Gov attitude to the 550k expats they are meant to support and have paid for that service. 

[Sheryl]

 
Hmmm.   The exchange rate would only count once a year (at the time of obtaining the affidavit).  But now if immigration want to see net 40/65k each month in a Thai bank account, any significant change in rates could bring one or more months below the minimum.   Doesn't one month below the minimum invalidate all the months before it?  (meaning the applicant must start over from the next good month forward)?
 
What would be nice is if they used an AVERAGE of the last 12 months (or whatever 12 months are used to prove monthly income method); a mean average would give the extension applicant more flexibility.  Especially those with investments and such that may only be able to pull funds a few times per year. 
 
Whether Thai logic would allow a mean average to be used....I wouldn't hold my breath.

Yes, you are correct on that, I didn't consider that aspect. Which means that people with incomes near the 65k mark need to keep a very close eye on exchange rates and may in some months have to make an extra transfer to top up to 65k.

It is indeed a headache and an "average" of 65k a month would be much easier but that's unfortunately not what the Police Order says.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Felt 35]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

Yes, you are correct on that, I didn't consider that aspect. Which means that people with incomes near the 65k mark need to keep a very close eye on exchange rates and may in some months have to make an extra transfer to top up to 65k.

It is indeed a headache and an "average" of 65k a month would be much easier but that's unfortunately not what the Police Order says.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Do it have to be 65k exactly and is it a problem if transfers are for example around 65-68K every month?

 

Thanks

Felt

 

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, chilly07 said:

All embassies are capable of verifying income sources via pension and tax records providing applicants grant permission.

Sorry you are not correct. Some are not are allowed or even able to do it even with a person's consent.

I can assure that the US embassy is one of those that cannot do it.

[Jip99]

Just now, Felt 35 said:

Do it have to be 65k exactly and is it a problem if transfers are for example around 65-68K every month?

 

Thanks

Felt

 

 

 

65k minimum is the requirement.

 

 

Do what I do...... transfer exactly 65,000 Baht on the 1st of the month and then top up later in the month as required.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Felt 35 said:

Do it have to be 65k exactly and is it a problem if transfers are for example around 65-68K every month?

As long as the transfers are equal to or greater than 65k baht they will be accepted.

[Bluetongue]

28 minutes ago, chilly07 said:

All embassies are capable of verifying income sources via pension and tax records providing applicants grant permission. The embassies that now don't probably had a "business/pecuniary reason" for ceasing which is probably illegal. Service to expats was the least of their concerns despite being supported by taxes paid by those expats. UK frozen pensions despite years of Nat Insurance payments and full UK tax payments on those pensions clearly demonstrates the UK Gov attitude to the 550k expats they are meant to support and have paid for that service. 

Exactly, the Australian Embassy staff that count, ie ones you never see, faceless men and women and their bosses in Canberra could not give a rats bottom about expats. They are concerned, in order, about their climb up the greasy pole, their numerous perks and allowances for being here, the price of real estate in Canberra or wherever they have their negatively geared rental property, whether to go to the gym on work time as part of their work life balance performance agreement, what restaurant to go to for lunch, at what time they can knock off (here about 3pm should cover it Canberra has gone home by then) and thats it.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, 4evermaat said:

 

 

Jacko45k is spot on.  But there are also some political and monetary policy reasons for it.  

 

 

The Western expat is still valuable, but just not as novel as 20, 10, even 5 years ago.  The majority of the basic infrastructure has been built.  China is chipping in with high speed rails and a huge middle class that needs somewhere to vacation.

 

Every country has a right to protect their own interests.  If you really look at the overall situation, did they really change the law or just how they change how they enforced existing policies?  I don't think that is being smug; it is being honest about the immigration policy.  How many retirees were playing the loophole hoping it would never be closed??

 

With that said, @Sheryl made a good point in another thread that the 40k/65k in the embassy letter could be Gross income (pre-taxed et al).  But if thai immigration want to see those monthly 40/65k receipts as a net deposit with monthly method, then that can significantly affect some expat's ability to qualify, especially taking into account exchange rates + taxes.

 

 

That is the trap I am in now. The GBP forex rates have dropped to far and I cannot get a retirement extension this time around after 9 years.

 

So I will either go to a marriage extension or go to Savannakhet to get a visa.

 

Savannakhet is a little more expensive as I have to leave Thailand for Mae Sot every 80 to 90 days, but I don't have to do 90 day reports or fill in pages of the marriage extension in duplicate. In fact I don't need to go to Khampaeng Phet Imm office again.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Normally things like that in the USA are solved or solvable by simply offering contract services.  Some company forms an agreement with the US embassy, agrees to some range of criteria to investigate and certify as appropriate the income is real and proper.  Of course the service charges to expat.  But no pressure has been put on the US embassy or US State Department to do anything about the situation

The only thing the US Embassy needs to do is ask the applicant to provide their award letter from either the Social Security Dept; Veterans Department or military; or as an alternate a  letter from a private pension or a letter indicating an applicant derives  income from another source such as house rental stocks/bonds.

An extra minute or two of scrutiny- an Oath is given which means lying is subject to a federal felony.  The Affidavit is signed-  A disclaimer is put on the affidavit indicating the Embassy is not responsible for any errors but Thai Immigration may ask for added proof such as a Bank account in the US showing the source of income.  It is my belief Thai Immigration would readily accept these letters-  the Embassy is losing income; applicants are having a hard time and  Thai Immigration has to work harder checking bank books and bank information. A Lose-lose situation for everyone.

 

 

[Hans Rayong]

How many countries are not issuing income letters anymore?

 

Only those Banana Republics who do not care about their citizens in Thailand.

[jesimps]

5 hours ago, jacko45k said:

It would appear to be an Embassy decision that likely was prompted by immigration asking them to truly verify the 'income' their letters were attesting to.

The Embassies decided this was beyond their capabilities and withdrew the service. 

I'd be willing to bet my entire estate that all the embassies still issuing letters don't do a full check.

[jesimps]

1 hour ago, Bluetongue said:

Exactly, the Australian Embassy staff that count, ie ones you never see, faceless men and women and their bosses in Canberra could not give a rats bottom about expats. They are concerned, in order, about their climb up the greasy pole, their numerous perks and allowances for being here, the price of real estate in Canberra or wherever they have their negatively geared rental property, whether to go to the gym on work time as part of their work life balance performance agreement, what restaurant to go to for lunch, at what time they can knock off (here about 3pm should cover it Canberra has gone home by then) and thats it.

Being an ex member of the Brit foreign service, I can vouch that your lot sound just like our lot. You don't get any browny points for helping expats, that's a fact.

[Deerculler]

Australia has a Govt. Funded Pension

[TheThai]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

The only thing the US Embassy needs to do is ask the applicant to provide their award letter from either the Social Security Dept; Veterans Department or military; or as an alternate a  letter from a private pension or a letter indicating an applicant derives  income from another source such as house rental stocks/bonds.

An extra minute or two of scrutiny- an Oath is given which means lying is subject to a federal felony.  The Affidavit is signed-  A disclaimer is put on the affidavit indicating the Embassy is not responsible for any errors but Thai Immigration may ask for added proof such as a Bank account in the US showing the source of income.  It is my belief Thai Immigration would readily accept these letters-  the Embassy is losing income; applicants are having a hard time and  Thai Immigration has to work harder checking bank books and bank information. A Lose-lose situation for everyone.

 

 

Digital copying makes creating a fake pension document easy especially with the 1000's of private business pensions in the U.S..  American's gave an oath to obtain the notary of the income letter already.  So the threat of being subjected to a felony did not stop those who lied in the past and would not in the future. Either the embassy does actual validations or none at all.   They chose to do none at all.

[Icedoctor]

Well just to clarify. I pay full tax in Denmark and have more than 100.000 baht every month after tax.

i am not living here permanently just 2-3 months at a time to visit my gf. She visits me the same way in Denmark for christmas and summerholiday.

last year it was enough to send them my tax records online to embassy, pay a fee and everything were ok but now....

i have taken my descision. I am going back to Denmark and I bring my gf with me. 

Just for the record. Tuesday we are going to Bangkok to have all her documents translated to english, wednesday we are going to the Department of Foreign affairs to have the translations stamped and finally thursday we are going to Royal Danish embassy to have the stamps stamped ! Makes me sick when I am used to take care of everything online in Denmark.

thanks for all your kind replies 

[Tony125]

6 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

I would like to know the real story behind some of the embassies not issuing income letters anymore.  There are a lot of retirees in Thailand that are in the same situation as "icedoctor."  It is too bad these few embassy officials decided to abandon their citizens.  

 

These retirees have good monthly incomes but their funds are in real estate, stock market, or they have no interest in participating in immigrations Thai banking scheme.  I wish you well icedoctor, and the many others who are being forced out of Thailand.

 

As to the few smug posters who are amused by their fellow westerners being forced to leave Thailand, please leave you lame comments to yourself. ????    

 

 

Don't see a problem for those that have real estate, stocks, money, pension or rental incomes in a foreign country as they don't have to deposit 800,000 baht and keep it in a Thai bank just transfer over 65,000 baht to your Thai Bank every month. US, Britain and Australia embassies don't give out Income Letters any more but all other embassies do and Immigration will accept bank statements of monthly deposits (of 65,000) from the countries that don't give out letters anymore.

[Arkady]

6 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

I would like to know the real story behind some of the embassies not issuing income letters anymore.  There are a lot of retirees in Thailand that are in the same situation as "icedoctor."  It is too bad these few embassy officials decided to abandon their citizens.  

 

These retirees have good monthly incomes but their funds are in real estate, stock market, or they have no interest in participating in immigrations Thai banking scheme.  I wish you well icedoctor, and the many others who are being forced out of Thailand.

 

As to the few smug posters who are amused by their fellow westerners being forced to leave Thailand, please leave you lame comments to yourself. ????    

 

 

It seems that Immigration put pressure on the embassies to verify the income, rather than just rely on pension letters that could be forged. Obviously some embassies, particularly the Brits who have been downsizing the list of legalisation services offered to citizens for years and are now moving into an office block, were happy for an excuse to drop this service. There is no way for embassies to properly verify the information, as required by Immigration, without taking on major resources and increasing the fees substantially but his is not what embassies are supposed to do anyway. Other embassies presumably have either taken the view that Immigration's demands were unreasonable and it is in the interests of their citizens to coninue issuing the letters or have yet to take a decision to stop issuing them. I heard the Brits justified their action by saying they are not in a position to take legal responsibility for the correctness of the information in the pension letters.  This doesn't sound like a sound legal argument because the letters are merely based on declarations by their citizens and they couldn't be held legally liable for any incorrect information declared, even if Immigration actually had the temerity to try to sue a foreign government over such a frivolous issue.  

[Arkady]

34 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

Don't see a problem for those that have real estate, stocks, money, pension or rental incomes in a foreign country as they don't have to deposit 800,000 baht and keep it in a Thai bank just transfer over 65,000 baht to your Thai Bank every month. US, Britain and Australia embassies don't give out Income Letters any more but all other embassies do and Immigration will accept bank statements of monthly deposits (of 65,000) from the countries that don't give out letters anymore.

I see an issue for those who also have investments in Thailand that generate enough income for them to live on and don't want to remit another B65,000 per month to Thailand. But for them the 800,000 lump sum might be a better option.

 

[JohnnyBD]

49 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

Don't see a problem for those that have real estate, stocks, money, pension or rental incomes in a foreign country as they don't have to deposit 800,000 baht and keep it in a Thai bank just transfer over 65,000 baht to your Thai Bank every month. US, Britain and Australia embassies don't give out Income Letters any more but all other embassies do and Immigration will accept bank statements of monthly deposits (of 65,000) from the countries that don't give out letters anymore.

The problem for some is they don't live here full-time and don't want to xfer monies here when they are not here. That's why the embassy affidavits were so nice. You didn't have to actually xfer any monies and in truth, you really did not need to have 65k of income.

Edited May 1, 2019 by JohnnyBD

[perconrad]

44 minutes ago, Icedoctor said:

Well just to clarify. I pay full tax in Denmark and have more than 100.000 baht every month after tax.

i am not living here permanently just 2-3 months at a time to visit my gf. She visits me the same way in Denmark for christmas and summerholiday.

last year it was enough to send them my tax records online to embassy, pay a fee and everything were ok but now....

i have taken my descision. I am going back to Denmark and I bring my gf with me. 

Just for the record. Tuesday we are going to Bangkok to have all her documents translated to english, wednesday we are going to the Department of Foreign affairs to have the translations stamped and finally thursday we are going to Royal Danish embassy to have the stamps stamped ! Makes me sick when I am used to take care of everything online in Denmark.

thanks for all your kind replies 

Well now you just have to E-mail the pension company and have them send in English how much you get in pension in 2019 directly to the Embassy, then E-mail the Embassy that you have done that and then the Embassy will send you a bill and after paying that they will send you the pension letter stamped and endorsed by the Embassy and everything is OK.

[Thaidream]

6 hours ago, TheThai said:

Digital copying makes creating a fake pension document easy especially with the 1000's of private business pensions in the U.S..  American's gave an oath to obtain the notary of the income letter already.  So the threat of being subjected to a felony did not stop those who lied in the past and would not in the future. Either the embassy does actual validations or none at all.   They chose to do none at all

If this was the case- all Thai Immigration has to  do is establish a random system of asking an applicant  for the proof of their pension and then ask for tertiary proof such as where their direct deposit goes- US Bank etc and the applicant then has to produce the bank information.  Then the applicant has to provide how he gets the money - ATM cards.  Secondary and tertiary proof is what will weed out the liars- then send them to court- charged with lying to a Thai government official and also  a felony under the Us system.

 

A single  reported investigation and a conviction will stop any lies.  The US /Aus/BE have stopped the letters because they do not want to do them- Period.  If they started to do them tomorrow- they would be accepted by Thai Imm.

 

In fact- the Us Embassy in Bogata Columbia does provide income letters  for Americans retiring in Columbia.

[gk10002000]

10 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The only thing the US Embassy needs to do is ask the applicant to provide their award letter from either the Social Security Dept; Veterans Department or military; or as an alternate a  letter from a private pension or a letter indicating an applicant derives  income from another source such as house rental stocks/bonds.

An extra minute or two of scrutiny- an Oath is given which means lying is subject to a federal felony.  The Affidavit is signed-  A disclaimer is put on the affidavit indicating the Embassy is not responsible for any errors but Thai Immigration may ask for added proof such as a Bank account in the US showing the source of income.  It is my belief Thai Immigration would readily accept these letters-  the Embassy is losing income; applicants are having a hard time and  Thai Immigration has to work harder checking bank books and bank information. A Lose-lose situation for everyone.

 

 

Well that could work if one had a pension.  Me, most of my money will come from dividends and interest which will be like three times my social security benefit.  But all easily demonstrated.  Etrade has a fine income estimator that lists the equities I hold and the last income they generated and uses that to estimate the next year's income.  Etrade has said they would gladly issue some sort of letter explaining that.  And I would gladly supply the brokerage statements that show the equities in my possession.  None of this would be hard to do.  But unless some pressure or direction is applied to the US Embassy or the State Department, they will not do a thing.

[onera1961]

My first post here.
i am a dane and my retirement visa expires may 22 and I have to leave Thailand because my embassy is not very cooperative.
I wonder how many countries besides Denmark refuse to give income letters now. I heard about US, UK and Australia but are there more ?
its a bit of a shame because I have a good pension well over 100.000 baht but most of my funds are in houses in Denmark, not easy to capitalize with such a short notice to have 800.000 baht in a thai bank
Have a nice day to all
 

Can get an O-A every two years. Problem solved.

Sent from my JKM-LX2 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[luckyluke]

So Thai Immigration is not really the "Baddie". 

They even create the additional system of 65000 monthly for the citizens of the countries which don't issue "Income Letters" anymore. 

Is this perfect and does it suit everyone? 

No, but they also could have done nothing, which mean only the sum in the bank would have been the only possibility for these citizens. 

[a977]

19 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

The big difference between those countries and other countries like germany is the pension system. 

 

Pretty much every german has a state pension and/or riesterrente and they have access to that system from their embassy. 

 

They can't verify your other income either that is in private vehicles. 

 

Us/uk/australia is mostly privately managed pension which they simply lack access too. 

US has IRA, 401k, profit sharing plans, cash balance plans, pension equity plans.. Where you select your investments yourself and i doubt they have access to all that stuff in the embassy. 

As Jingthing has rightly pointed out it is simply a matter of punching in a few numbers into a computer and Hey Presto there it is for all the world to see. Most countries that have Govt. pensions you can access by way of security codes. So basically it's just a matter of the Embassy staff being too damn lazy.

[BertM]

9 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

But unless some pressure or direction is applied to the US Embassy or the State Department, they will not do a thing.

If someone could get the Embassies to reinstate the income letters & affidavits, that would make many people's lives so much better, but sadly, I don't think that will happen. So, I don't care too much what they did in the past, I prefer to live in the present and focus on what's coming next in life. Hopefully, it's enjoyable...

Edited May 2, 2019 by BertM

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, BertM said:

If someone could get the US Embassy to reinstate the income affidavits, that would make everyone's lives so much better, but sadly, I don't think that will ever happen. The past "what ifs" or the worst for me, so I don't care too much what happened in the past. I prefer to focus on what is coming next in life. Enjoy life...

I think there was a lot of fuss years ago when immigration made Embassy letters an obligation, when people where using income to get their Extensions. In fact I thought Embassy letters were not actually mentioned in the regulations, but only in the Q&A, where it said they were required. 

At that time, I thought it an awful requirement, having to traipse down to Bangkok and mess with that crowd!

[Thaidream]

46 minutes ago, BertM said:

f someone could get the Embassies to reinstate the income letters & affidavits, that would make many people's lives so much better, but sadly, I don't think that will happen. So, I don't care too much what they did in the past, I prefer to live in the present and focus on what's coming next in life. Hopefully, it's enjoyable...

Since there is a new Immigration Commissioner- now would be a perfect time for the 3 offending Embassies to send a Memorandum to Thai Imm indicating they are reinstating the Embassy Letter to assist Thai Imm .

Each of the 3 Embassies  have the applicant fill out an affidavit stating the applicant is certifying their income as xxx per month  from xxx  Government/Company./  The applicant then shows the embassy their pension letter/ military or VA pension letter which must match what they claim/  The Applicant then swears under Oath it is correct,  

Thai Imm at some point can ask for added proof such as the bank statement showing the direct deposit of the stated pension amount. Everything should match.  

If their is a discrepancy-thai Imm can either ask for more proof or report  the applicant back to the Embassy indicating possible fraud.