Loan Sharks - Chanote Collateral

[neeray]

33 minutes ago, Luca Brasi said:

100% confirmed they're not legally registered lenders.

 

I've asked my wife for any statement, receipt, proof of payment,... she said they never had one to give. The only things they have on her is the bogus loan contract she signed and her chanote.

 

It sounds like the solution to this is going to be very expensive for you. With no proof of payments, it would seem to me like they can claim she still owes the original 300,000. From what I understand about Thailand, if you make trouble for them, the recriminations against you and your wife will not be pleasant.

Others on here know much more about chanotes and registering at the land office than I do but it seems to me like you will have to negotiate your way out of this one with the help of somebody in authority. Whatever, it's going to be costly. Good luck (I pity your wife).

[Odysseus123]

3 minutes ago, ukrules said:

If the debt is real then pay it off including the interest, problem solved.

 

If you can't pay it then sell the house and pay it. They can't take the whole house and keep it for a small loan secured on it unless you allow them to do so, which would be a bit stupid, especially if the loan is for much less than the value of the house.

 

Yes.Agreed.

Pay it off and then go.

Staying is the stupid part.

 

I would not give a brass razoo to a Thai after I was disencumbered of their nonsense,

 

Remember the Golden Rule-not one brass razoo to a Thai.

[Just Weird]

It seems that Rally123 has provided all the legal and practical advice the OP will ever need.  No need to bother with the lawyers appointment.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Just Weird

[Luca Brasi]

1 minute ago, Odysseus123 said:

Yes.Agreed.

Pay it off and then go.

Staying is the stupid part.

 

I would not give a brass razoo to a Thai after I was disencumbered of their nonsense,

 

Remember the Golden Rule-not one brass razoo to a Thai.

Well, the debt has already been paid off IMO (540,000 THB paid for the last 36 months on a 300,000 THB loan). I've got all my bank statements to prove I was transferring money to her account so she could paid the monthly 15,000 THB the loan sharks are asking for.

 

She also confirmed to the lawyer that the loan was 300,000 THB and I viewed a picture of the "bogus" loan contract which shows 300,000 THB.

 

So that's why we'll get to see the lawyer because the interest rate is plain illegal and just for my kids I want to get the chanote back.

[thainet]

One probably big problem now (after 3 years) is that the Chanote can be anywhere.

Loan chanotes (as in this case) are resold, re-loaned out etc.

If she signed it over then you are probably out of luck now, and yes someone else owns the house. And remember as a foreigner you didn't own any part of the house/land anyway.

So as others have said you have 3 options:

1) Have her find out if the original loan shark still has the chanote. If yes is he willing to give it back for a one time payoff (but remember if she signed it over he owns the house anyway, so very difficult).

2) Yes she can take the loanshark to court, but once again if its signed over then the court may not even take the case. If not signed over (and presuming the loanshark still has it), the court may freeze any action on the chanote, until such time as a judgement is reached (this could be 2-3 years).

3) You move a long way away with the kids, and leave the lady to stay in the house until the loan sharks kick her out.

 

PS..In your OP post you say that you just found out about it, but then a few sentences later you say that you could/should of reported it to the police 2 years earlier. So your story doesn't quite gel either.

 

The moral of this story is that the house was never yours, and now it is not hers either. Sad, but deceit on her part and stupidity on your part.

[Luca Brasi]

1 minute ago, thainet said:

 

PS..In your OP post you say that you just found out about it, but then a few sentences later you say that you could/should of reported it to the police 2 years earlier. So your story doesn't quite gel either.

 

Could let me know in which post I said I could have reported it 2 years earlier ? I truly wish I could...

[ratcatcher]

1 hour ago, Luca Brasi said:

Thanks for all the replies so far. 

 

We have a formal appointment with the lawyer on Tuesday, but over phone he told us the easiest & cheapest solution would probably be a private settlement with the loan sharks.

 

He also advised against reporting to the police for now, unless we have some proofs (Line messages, sms,...) of threats or physical aggression.

 

Regarding the chanote, I understood that she signed a paper stating to use the house as a collateral until the loan is fully repaid (which is already...at least under the law maximum interest rate) and handed over the chanote to them. She told me there was a police officer when she signed who is accomplice with the loan sharks, hence she's now scared to get arrested and to lose the house.

 

I've also asked the laywer if I could just declare a lost chanote and get a new one at the land office, he STRONGLY advised not to do it!

 

 

Just don't end up like your namesake.......................check it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luca_Brasi

 

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, Luca Brasi said:

Well, the debt has already been paid off IMO (540,000 THB paid for the last 36 months on a 300,000 THB loan). I've got all my bank statements to prove I was transferring money to her account so she could paid the monthly 15,000 THB the loan sharks are asking for.

 

She also confirmed to the lawyer that the loan was 300,000 THB and I viewed a picture of the "bogus" loan contract which shows 300,000 THB.

 

So that's why we'll get to see the lawyer because the interest rate is plain illegal and just for my kids I want to get the chanote back.

So you should.

 

And tell your wife not to do it again.

 

You play with loan sharks and you play with fire,

 

I know of at least three foreigners who lost their savings (Thai business) in this manner.

 

I would have lost the same if I had not told my Thai wife to take a long walk off a short plank.

 

Now,every Thai I meet I say "Sawarsdee Khrap-take a long stroll off a miniscule pier..."

[thainet]

5 minutes ago, Luca Brasi said:

Could let me know in which post I said I could have reported it 2 years earlier ? I truly wish I could...

The last sentence in your original post. Maybe I read it wrong.

 

BUT in your last post a few minutes ago, you said you have the receipts of giving her 15k a month to pay off the loan, so it seems as if you did know about.

Although it doesn't really matter at this stage!!!

 

Also other posters have said that the correct amount of interest is   'xxx' % , but remember you are not dealing with a Bank, you are dealing with mafia types..very different kettle of fish.

[neeray]

13 minutes ago, Luca Brasi said:

Could let me know in which post I said I could have reported it 2 years earlier ? I truly wish I could...

I think poster "thainet" might have confused "2 years" with this.

"- Given the new law against loan sharks  promulgated ( http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/stiffer-anti-loan-shark-law-now-effective/ ) 2 years ago, I was also about to go to police station to bring criminal charges against the loan sharks, but was advised against doing so".

 

[thainet]

2 minutes ago, neeray said:

I think poster "thainet" might have confused "2 years" with this.

"- Given the new law against loan sharks  promulgated ( http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/stiffer-anti-loan-shark-law-now-effective/ ) 2 years ago, I was also about to go to police station to bring criminal charges against the loan sharks, but was advised against doing so".

 

Yes I acknowledged that in my post #39.

Edited May 17, 2019 by thainet
spelling

[Luca Brasi]

7 minutes ago, thainet said:

 

BUT in your last post a few minutes ago, you said you have the receipts of giving her 15k a month to pay off the loan, so it seems as if you did know about.

Although it doesn't really matter at this stage!!!

Oh I meant to say with the money transferred every month to her account, we can prove she was paying the monthly 15K to them. But I didn't know some of the funds were used for loan sharks repayments until today...

 

Anyway, we'll see on Tuesday what's next.

 

The only thing that reassures me is that she didn't sign anything at the land office.

[thainet]

Well I wish you luck and will hope the ending is good for you.

 

Just to clarify...my points and comments come from first hand experience, not from being in the same situation, but previously I was a 'Court Interpreter' at the Chonburi Court, so I have been very close to many cases such as this, and they mostly don't have a 'happy ending'.  So if you are going to pursue it vigorously, then make sure you fork out for a top notch Law firm, otherwise it will end in tears.

 

Good luck. 

[Kenny202]

1 hour ago, Luca Brasi said:

Could let me know in which post I said I could have reported it 2 years earlier ? I truly wish I could...

You did say you have been transferring her 15k every month. What did she say that was for?

 

Out of interest, may I respectfully ask what she told you the loan was for? Hearing so many stories last few months about thai wives gambling large sums, even houses and land away

[baansgr]

1 hour ago, Luca Brasi said:

Well, the debt has already been paid off IMO (540,000 THB paid for the last 36 months on a 300,000 THB loan). I've got all my bank statements to prove I was transferring money to her account so she could paid the monthly 15,000 THB the loan sharks are asking for.

 

She also confirmed to the lawyer that the loan was 300,000 THB and I viewed a picture of the "bogus" loan contract which shows 300,000 THB.

 

So that's why we'll get to see the lawyer because the interest rate is plain illegal and just for my kids I want to get the chanote back.

You said you only found out today, yet now say you were transferring the money every month...??? 

[NCC1701A]

people do so many exciting things in Thailand!

 

it's like watching a TV private detective show.  

Edited May 17, 2019 by NCC1701A

[tabarin]

Neighbour in the street here seemed to have been borrowing, caused fights in the house. 
After 2 months sharks started showing up and posting around the house, a few nights later a big fight again, bit psychical.
A week later at 5AM the house got raided and both the wife and husband were arrested, children moved out, house emptied, never seen anyone again.

Anyway; if the ownership of the house is still with you, leave ASAP and sell the house. 

Otherwise I would make a deal or take the loss, if the house is worth 5M the odds are really heavily against you.
Would be cheaper and better for them to make your family go away than giving it up.

I would not take this easy on your wife too, she brought your entire family in danger without a reason (saving face) by doing this. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by tabarin

[Luca Brasi]

38 minutes ago, baansgr said:

You said you only found out today, yet now say you were transferring the money every month...??? 

I transfer 20-25k every month since we have kids together for general living expenses as I often travel overseas for work. I just found out today that 15k was going to the loan sharks...

[Thongkorn]

Are you still with her,

[Thongkorn]

1 hour ago, tabarin said:

Neighbour in the street here seemed to have been borrowing, caused fights in the house. 
After 2 months sharks started showing up and posting around the house, a few nights later a big fight again, bit psychical.
A week later at 5AM the house got raided and both the wife and husband were arrested, children moved out, house emptied, never seen anyone again.

Anyway; if the ownership of the house is still with you, leave ASAP and sell the house. 

Otherwise I would make a deal or take the loss, if the house is worth 5M the odds are really heavily against you.
Would be cheaper and better for them to make your family go away than giving it up.

I would not take this easy on your wife too, she brought your entire family in danger without a reason (saving face) by doing this. 

If you sell the house you will need the chanut, And if you have it and not the loan shark the buyer would look to see if any money had been borrowed on the chanut.

[tabarin]

13 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

If you sell the house you will need the chanut, And if you have it and not the loan shark the buyer would look to see if any money had been borrowed on the chanut.

Yes understood but I guess that could be recovered via a long legal way while being safe on distance at least.
Could be any reason to lose that just as a birth certificate right?

Edited May 17, 2019 by tabarin

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

You did say you have been transferring her 15k every month. What did she say that was for?

Sponsorship although questionable, in itself it isn't illegal.

 

3 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Out of interest, may I respectfully ask what she told you the loan was for? Hearing so many stories last few months about thai wives gambling large sums, even houses and land away

There's no respectful way of being nosy is there?

 

As for the 'thai wives gambling large sums, even houses and land away', that's been going on a lot longer than the 'last few months'.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Thongkorn said:

Are you still with her,

Have you read this thread from the start?

[Rally123]

Once upon a time there were businesses called 'Reng Rak Nee', excuse spelling, in Thailand. Their business was to collect bad debts. As far as I'm aware they never used violence. They used intimidation to obtain the loans ie stand outside your house or follow you to work and shout things to embarrass you in front of your neighbours and work colleagues.

These were outlawed by the government and I believe merged with loan sharks. I'm pretty sure the OP will not be physically abused for not paying off the full debt as these people do not want jail time. Please take my advice and go to the police and let them deal with this. A bunch of keyboard heroes who have never been through what you're going through are only going to confuse you. Don't under estimate the police here, They're not all bad.    

[baansgr]

16 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

Once upon a time there were businesses called 'Reng Rak Nee', excuse spelling, in Thailand. Their business was to collect bad debts. As far as I'm aware they never used violence. They used intimidation to obtain the loans ie stand outside your house or follow you to work and shout things to embarrass you in front of your neighbours and work colleagues.

These were outlawed by the government and I believe merged with loan sharks. I'm pretty sure the OP will not be physically abused for not paying off the full debt as these people do not want jail time. Please take my advice and go to the police and let them deal with this. A bunch of keyboard heroes who have never been through what you're going through are only going to confuse you. Don't under estimate the police here, They're not all bad.    

If reporting an illegal loan to the police was all you need to do so you didnt have to repay it, Thais being Thais would be borrowing shedloads of money and getting away without repaying. Lets hope the OP gets it sorted for his kids sake but not forget, his wife borrowed money, and that money needs repaying to the lender regardless of how much interest he has already paid. He needs to contact the lender and come to an agreement with them. People in Thailand disappear or are killed for a lot less than 300.000, that's a fact not being a keyboard hero. He also needs to step back and find out why she borrowed the money and what it was spent on and why she can deprive her kids of that money every month for that reason.

[Kenny202]

To the OP, before you go to much further, and seeing your wife has already been thrifty with the truth, I would any way you can ascertain what has already been paid. Just because you are tferring her 15k every month is no guarantee she is paying them. I had a missus like this once like pulling teeth getting to the truth, and always my fault apparently. "If I tell you all you get angry". After we split up she had a guy show up at her shop asking her to come in the car with her. He also showed her a gun he had on his hip. Was hanging around the shop, taking photos etc. You can't tell me someone flashing a gun around like that doesn't have some higher back up. Just to illustrate how muddy the waters can get, I am looking on a very similar scenario at the moment. Talk about a web of deceit.

 

When I first met my girl she told me she had a loan with a local loan "agent" shall we say. A Chinese woman in the village. She guaranteed a loan for a friend with her land deeds / Chanote 80k THB. The loan she had taken out 2 years ago, friend nowhere to be seen and not a payment had been made in 2 years. I told her right off the bat the loan was her problem and I wouldn't be assisting in anyway. No problem. I sat down and did some sums with her and even with compounding interest (which they have no concept of / she is an accountant) the debt would now be over 200k. Strangely the woman had her Chanote, but my girl had signed no contract or the Chanote nor had the woman ever seriously pursued her. My girl insisted it was because the loan lady was a friend of her dead father. Maybe, but no one, particularly a Chinese gives away 80k. I didn't believe her that the woman had nothing apart from her land deeds but I have since confirmed this to be true. She had a meeting with the Chinese woman a few weeks ago and she seemed like a very nice lady. She told my girl she would be happy with small payments per month and she wasn't interested in taking her land. She would freeze the debt with no further interest. I had already advised my girl to give her the land, was only worth 80k at best. 

 

During the meeting she discovered that her aunty had been to the Chinese loan agent. Told her a story that she wanted to retrieve my girls land paper back and take it to the bank to get a consolidating loan to pay her out. Amazingly the Chinese loan woman gave her my girls land papers! The aunty is a degenerate gambler, already in debt for over a million baht and took my girls land paper to another loan agent, a proper local lending office and they loaned the aunty money against my girls land papers. She forged my girls signatures etc to get a loan of which she initially said was 20k THB. My girl took the initiative and went to the office where a lady there told her the loan was actually 60k plus interest. Probably over 100k now. The owner of the loan shop, who seems to be complicit in the affair came in while my girl was there, after the lady told her the debt was 60k. My girls aunty had already worded up the owner and when the owner came in told my girl the loan was only 20k and she saw the owner giving the other lady in the shop the old nudge nudge wink wink. Horrible mess and still not how close to the truth she is. I asked my girl why she simply didn't ask the loan office to give her Chanote back? It was their fault they lent the money to the aunty. The aunty forged signatures etc and not your problem. The loan office has no right to keep your paper. She didn't want to make a big problem for the aunty or get the police involved and the aunty has promised to clear everything up by the end of the month. She wont. I told my GF the aunty would more than likely do a couple of years prison time at least for what she's done. Funnily the aunties immediate family seem to think my girls is in the wrong for "make big proprem" as is often the case in LOS.   

 

I've lived in a couple of villages and I have no sympathy for the borrowers crying poor. You see them on the news crying and wailing they didn't understand about the interest etc. In most cases they don't even make the first payment off the principal let alone the interest. Usually starts off they think they are cheating the lender. Make an agreement to make the payments every month but never turn up. I've heard them sitting around laughing saying the lender is stupid and has forgotten about the loan as they never chased them. Usually seen being turfed out of their farm in around 6 months. It is also interesting how the loan sharks if we are calling them that are so blase about security. I don't believe they do not have some police backing. They always seem to be very confident about getting their money back.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Kenny202

[Pravda]

1 hour ago, baansgr said:

If reporting an illegal loan to the police was all you need to do so you didnt have to repay it, Thais being Thais would be borrowing shedloads of money and getting away without repaying.

 

This. I find the previous post calling posters arrogant keyboard warriors....well arrogant.

[Rally123]

Quote

Govt returns assets to loan shark prey 21 Sep 2018 at 07:40 16 comments NEWSPAPER SECTION: NEWS | WRITER: POST REPORTERS Villagers hold land title deeds returned to them by their creditors at a ceremony... 

Please credit and share this article with others using this link:https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1543702/govt-returns-assets-to-loan-shark-prey. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post Public Company Limited. All rights reserved.

It pays to complain to the police.

[Rally123]

8 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

If you sell the house you will need the chanut, And if you have it and not the loan shark the buyer would look to see if any money had been borrowed on the chanut.

Can we nip this misunderstanding of what a 'Chanote' is. A 'Chanote' is the the legal title/status of the land. You don't borrow on the 'Chanote' you borrow on the land paper. And the house has zilch to do with it. It's all about the land. No title papers, no house.

Now if the land paper just happens to be 'Chanote' title then you can get a top loan for it from the bank. Whereas a 'Sor Por Kor' title is not going to get you a big loan on. In fact banks won't touch 'Sor Por Kor' papers. Hence why only loan sharks will.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Rally123

[Kenny202]

21 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

It pays to complain to the police.

I saw some numbers on the cases theyd resolved legally and it was very low. You need to understand these people cant and have no intention of paying the principal let alone the interest. I doubt the army will just cancel the whole debt. Maybe in the cae of the OP if the facts are correct and the principal and a large chunk of interest already paid