To the slightly pompous member of a 4 ball today at the Fleet Golf course Sattahip

[n210mp]

Today as I was playing as a "singleton walker' at the Royal Thai navy "Fleet" course at Sattahip and approaching the Tee for hole number 6 I was passed about 25 yards away from the Tee by two golfers in a buggy who  proceeded to set up to Tee off.

They were soon accompanied by two other golfer also in a buggy. In other words a four ball!

 

Feeling a little "miffed" that they did not ask "if they could go through" I asked them if they intended to "play through me?" 

 

One of them said "Only if you dont mind" in a slightly sarcastic and arrogant  manner!!!!

 

I answered that I did mind and proceeded to set up on the ladies Tee about 30 yards in front of them .

 

As I was setting up "the loud one" said something about  (me presumably) not knowing the rules!

Obviously this golfer still thinks that "Single players do not have any "priority" on a golf course !

 

The "loud ones" companions were, I am pleased to say very courteous and agreeable even congratulating me on a good Tee shot but the "odd bod" could have upset what was a good day of golf and therefore to avoid any similar events taking place, I attach for TV members a little memorandum on the rule changes  I think of 2004 reflecting the recognition that a "Single Player is now recognised as a "group!

 

 

Brent Kelley 

 

Updated February 13, 2019

Does a golfer playing alone have to yield to all other groups on the golf course? Asked another way, does a single have any right to play through, or does a single have to allow all other groups to play through despite being faster?

 

Let's begin answering this by posing another question, a pop quiz:

 

You are playing in a group of four. Several holes in front of your group are open. A single catches up to your group. Should your group:
A. Offer to let the single play through
B. Ignore the single, because singles have no standing on the golf course

 

The correct answer is - or should be - "A." If you answered "B," then you are one of those golfers who mistakenly believes that the rule book says golfers playing alone have no rights on the course.

 

Singles On the Course Used to be Lowest Priority

If you still believe today that singles have no standing, you probably have this belief because the Etiquette section of the Official Rules of Golf used to say just that! In fact, it said exactly this:

 

"A single player has no standing and should give way to a match of any kind."

 

John Hutchinson, who runs the Web site RulesHistory.com, explains the reasoning behind that old statement by the R&A and USGA:

 

"Up to that time, priority went in numerical order - four-ball gave way to three-ball, etc. The basis of this plan was that fewer players were presumed to be faster, and singles were (presumed to be) merely practicing, not competing."

 

But note above that we said the rule book used to include the statement about singles having no standing. That's because it no longer does; and, in fact, it now says the opposite.

 

But Today, Playing Through Is All About Speed

The statement "a single player has no standing and should give way to a match of any kind" was removed from the Official Rules of Golf in revisions for the 2004 edition, when, Hutchinson notes, "the emphasis changed to how fast any particular group were playing, regardless of the number in the group."

 

In other words, beginning in 2004, the etiquette guidelines in the rule book said that speed of play - regardless of how many golfers are in any particular group - determines whether a group should be allowed to play through.

 

Faster Groups Play Through ... But Is a Single a 'Group'?

But is a single a group? The 2004 revisions clearly implied that the USGA and R&A consider a single a "group," but did not explicitly state that. So another revision, in 2008, clarified that point and explicitly stated that a single is a "group," and has the same rights as any other group.

 

Here is what now appears in the Etiquette guidelines of the Official Rules of Golf:

 

• In the "Pace of Play" section: "It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group." (emphasis mine)
• In the "Priority on the Course" section: "Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is determined by a group's pace of play. Any group playing a whole round is entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round. The term 'group' includes a single player."

 

"So, once and for all, a single on the course deserves the same consideration as any other group of golfers, according to the USGA and the R&A.

 

Singles Get the Same Considerations as Other Groups ...

Unless. The rule book does give golf courses an out, however, by including that "unless otherwise determined by the Committee" bit quoted above. So while the Rules of Golfare clear that singles do have standing on the course, the rule book also gives committees the option to decide differently. If you're allowed to play as a single at a course, but then encounter trouble on the course, check with the pro about club policies - and make sure he or she understands the current USGA/R&A guidelines on the issue.

 

Because, after all these years, some (usually older) golfers are still unaware of the changes to the rule book in this area. My sense, when encountering this issue on the course or hearing stories from other golfers, is that most golfers who answer "B" to the question posed at the top of this article do so because they simply aren't aware that the guidelines have changed.

 

It should also be noted that a golf course sets its own policies regarding groupings. Some courses that are particularly busy on weekends and holidays might require all groups to include four golfers. Show up alone at one of those courses and you'll have to wait until other golfers come along with whom you can be grouped.

 

Also, a golfer who begins his or her round alone should always be prepared to pair up with other players during the round if the overall pace of play slows down and the single catches up to another single, a twosome or a threesome, and there is no opening ahead of that group."

 

[AlexRich]

You’ve just given me another reason to hate golf. It attracts too many self important prats.

 

Edit: not referring to you.

[topt]

OP congratulations on standing up to them.

 

Can you clarify however is there a long walk from hole no 5 to the tee at 6? I am just puzzling how they could have finished hole no 5 that quickly that you would not have been aware of them before they drove past you - or were they they just cutting in from somewhere else? 

 

My experience of golfing expats here is that unfortunately many have only a passing acquaintance with the rules especially to do with drops.

 

[Lacessit]

A single on a golf course has no rights over any larger group of players. That's the way it has always been.

Having said that, if common sense prevails it's preferable to let a single player through to speed up play.

The OP said he was passed by a couple of golfers. That to me says he was playing too slowly, unless they have commenced the round from the sixth hole.

If someone is faster than me, I let them through, irrespective of group size. It's pretty rare for someone to keep pace with me.

[n210mp]

Thanks for the replies.

 

 

 

 Laseit first I would be pleased if you could comment on the attachment that I added to my post with regard to a rule change by the Golf two leading authorities ? 

 

Particularly "

But Today, Playing Through Is All About Speed

The statement "a single player has no standing and should give way to a match of any kind" was removed from the Official Rules of Golf in revisions for the 2004 edition, when, Hutchinson notes, "the emphasis changed to how fast any particular group were playing, regardless of the number in the group."

 

And "

Singles Get the Same Considerations as Other Groups ...

Unless. The rule book does give golf courses an out, however, by including that "unless otherwise determined by the Committee" bit quoted above. So while the Rules of Golfare clear that singles do have standing on the course, the rule book also gives committees the option to decide differently. If you're allowed to play as a single at a course, but then encounter trouble on the course, check with the pro about club policies - and make sure he or she understands the current USGA/R&A guidelines on the issue."

 

AS far as playing slowly is concerned I had just been  stopped for a drink at the small cafe type place after hole 5 and certainly was aware of the 4 ball and that is why I was on my way to the 6th Tee when they or two of them deemed fit to pass me , may I also add that because I had seen their "play"  on the 5th hole up towards the green from my place at the cafe, I also was well aware that after I had Teed off on the 6th they would not be able to either catch me or "push me"!

 

 

Topt. Thanks for your comment but in all honesty it was only one of them that was a bit "boorish" and the other 3 golfers were just fine!  

 

I 

[n210mp]

31 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

A single on a golf course has no rights over any larger group of players. That's the way it has always been.

Having said that, if common sense prevails it's preferable to let a single player through to speed up play.

The OP said he was passed by a couple of golfers. That to me says he was playing too slowly, unless they have commenced the round from the sixth hole.

If someone is faster than me, I let them through, irrespective of group size. It's pretty rare for someone to keep pace with me.

Simply not true see my other post! (IMHO)

 

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, n210mp said:

Simply not true see my other post!

 

Fair enough. However, the fact you had stopped for a drink allowed them to catch you. Perhaps you were expecting them to do likewise.

You are generating a lot of sound and fury about a very minor issue. There are always going to be people who are a joy to play with, and others where it's a trial. Fortunately, the latter seem to be a small minority.

Move on.

[n210mp]

You have completely missed the point and it also looks as though you did not read my post thoroughly  with the attachment!

 

It seems from a very  "definitive black and white post"  where you are quite confident that you were right you go 180 degrees in the opposite direction with a wimpish  "fair enough" which at its best is  patronising,  maybe an apology and a correction  for your first misleading opinion ?

 

Once again if you take time to read my post "slowly at least 3 times" you will understand that "they" in fact passed me at warp speed (or at least two of them did)  about 20 yards  to the  6th tee !

 

Please Laseit "keep up to speed" when debating with me and keep the personal stuff (Sound and fury ?) out of your replies,  I do not generate anything in this thread other  than the need to "educate" people like you who like the "boor" in today's adventure was of the "Pompous and Know it all variety" 

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, n210mp said:

You have completely missed the point and it also looks as though you did not read my post thoroughly  with the attachment!

 

It seems from a very  "definitive black and white post"  where you are quite confident that you were right you go 180 degrees in the opposite direction with a wimpish  "fair enough" which at its best is  patronising,  maybe an apology and a correction  for your first misleading opinion ?

 

Once again if you take time to read my post "slowly at least 3 times" you will understand that "they" in fact passed me at warp speed (or at least two of them did)  about 20 yards  to the  6th tee !

 

Please Laseit "keep up to speed" when debating with me and keep the personal stuff (Sound and fury ?) out of your replies,  I do not generate anything in this thread other  than the need to "educate" people like you who like the "boor" in today's adventure was of the "Pompous and Know it all variety" 

As a matter of curiosity, what is your handicap?

[worgeordie]

Golf....spoils a good walk.

regards worgeordie

[SteveK]

Next there's going to be a thousand-word post about the pompous guy who didn't hold the door open at Siam Paragon. Or the person seen dropping a receipt whilst walking down Sukhumvit road. Or the old lady who pushed in front of you at the queue for the ticket machine at a BTS station.

 

Much more important things to worry about.

[n210mp]

5 hours ago, SteveK said:

Next there's going to be a thousand-word post about the pompous guy who didn't hold the door open at Siam Paragon. Or the person seen dropping a receipt whilst walking down Sukhumvit road. Or the old lady who pushed in front of you at the queue for the ticket machine at a BTS station.

 

Much more important things to worry about.

So why get involved in a post like this then ?

Your sense of "logic" and why you felt the need to comment  escapes me and is completely "off topic" with my OP.

This is the Golf forum after all! 

 

[n210mp]

5 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Golf....spoils a good walk.

regards worgeordie

No lad it "enhances" a good walk !

[cornishcarlos]

Get some friends and a buggy... Job done ????

[NightSky]

I don’t play golf as i find it boring but I’ve just noticed something VERY interesting....

 

.....Golf spelt backwards is flog!

 

 

[n210mp]

6 hours ago, Lacessit said:

As a matter of curiosity, what is your handicap?

Maybe I have been a little hard on you Lacessit  and in that " positive thought" will answer your question on the basis that it is asked in a nice  manner with no sting in its tail when I answer,  hahaha! ( you are too switched on to have any simple "Curiosity" 

 

I am 75  been playing golf since I was 66 and play off the "ladies Tees" together with another old curmudgeon  Bobbo a  74 year old Texan who has played golf since he was 9 years old. (the reason we play off the ladies tees is that in the last couple of months the walk in the heat and high humidity has been really harsh especially since we both have problems with leg injuries from our other hobby cycling. 

 

To answer your question and bit of info

Bob generously gives me a shot a hole,  ( Not long ago,In his early 60s Bob was a scratch golfer) so the answer is that when I play with Bob my HC is 18. It used to be a little less before I fell off my cycle in 2015 breaking my right leg in 5 places including compound fractures.

 

Bob and I play at the 2 Thai navy courses where you do not need to have a caddy  ( I am sure you are familiar with  them).

We walk 18 holes twice a week and visit the driving range maybe once a week. we also ride our bikes/bicycles 2/3 times a week around the Pattaya/Bangchang/ Sattahip areas averaging 50/60 Ks a ride.

 

I dont suppose for one minute that you will wish to play on the notorious watery and narrowish fairways  where we play but it would be interesting to maybe have a game with you and Learn if we could keep up to your pace?

It goes without saying that of course we would welcome another "curmudgeon " to make the golf that little bit more interesting. So you have an "open" invitation.       

[faraday]

Was this somewhat rude person younger than you?

[n210mp]

13 minutes ago, cornishcarlos said:

Get some friends and a buggy... Job done ????

I Have enough "friends" thank you CC hahaha and when I need to get a "buggy" to play golf I will stop playing! (only joking because there will be a time in the future when I simply will not be able to walk as I do now)

 

May I also add that occasionally through "circumstances" I have to play alone but mostly there are always people around  you know who will invite you to join in with them.

 

Yesterday I  did the first nine with a young Thai man whom I had never met before but   who then had to get off to work

.

On occasions I dont mind playing alone, it sharpens you up a little in that you can concentrate more on your own game and dare I say it "if the course is very quiet which it can be at 7 0 am when we play I can maybe practice a bit of chipping / putting or play 2 balls"  with no one in front of me  and no one pushing from behind (Said tongue in cheek)

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, faraday said:

Was this somewhat rude person younger than you?

At 70+, it is my opinion that

 

many, younger than me, are rude, 

 

many, older than me, are more grumpy. 

[n210mp]

9 minutes ago, faraday said:

Was this somewhat rude person younger than you?

Well I'm not sure but I think that I could have given him ten years (I do understand though where you are coming from though)

[n210mp]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

At 70+, it is my opinion that

 

many, younger than me, are rude, 

 

many, older than me, are more grumpy. 

Yes I find that too and in the grumpy department Bob and I are extremely well qualified!

[faraday]

There's a saying, don't remember it exactly, but it's something like 'If you're having a good day, watch out for the idiot that wants to ruin it'

 

His rudeness was unwarranted.

 

Enjoy your day.

 

????

[rhodie]

Clearly don't know all the facts, but if you were not being held up, and had played 6 holes ahead of a 4 ball, and they were able to catch you when you stopped for a drink, I would say you were playing extremely slowly.

Does not excuse the rudeness though.

[gmac]

57 minutes ago, n210mp said:

Bob and I play at the 2 Thai navy courses where you do not need to have a caddy  ( I am sure you are familiar with  them).

I wasn't aware that there were Thai navy courses where foreigners could play without a caddy, would you mind sharing the locations as it is the cost of caddies which has made me virtually give up golf in Thailand altogether.  

[n210mp]

33 minutes ago, rhodie said:

Clearly don't know all the facts, but if you were not being held up, and had played 6 holes ahead of a 4 ball, and they were able to catch you when you stopped for a drink, I would say you were playing extremely slowly.

Does not excuse the rudeness though.

No not really Rodie,  depends on how long I stayed at the Oasis!

 

The 4 ball would have had plenty of time to catch up with me if I say stayed 15 minutes or so and the "irony" is that if there hadn't been any silliness displayed by the one onerous  member of the 4 ball I would indeed have been very happy to stay a little longer at the water hole and let them  play through!

 

I  "teed off"  yesterday at 7 30 am finished at 11 20 am, played the first 9 with another Thai young man and the back nine on my own. My score was 14 over par!

[n210mp]

1 hour ago, gmac said:

I wasn't aware that there were Thai navy courses where foreigners could play without a caddy, would you mind sharing the locations as it is the cost of caddies which has made me virtually give up golf in Thailand altogether.  

Yes very happy to pass on any info gmac. Caddies are not required at these three places but of course you can bring your own like many golfers do hahaha!

 

The places where I and my friend play are the;

1 The royal Thai fleet course at Dongan beach Sattahip  9 holes

 https://www.google.co.th/maps/place/The+Royal+Thai+Fleet+9+hole+golf+course+Sattahip/@12.6552407,100.9210086,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x31028b5e0dc688db:0x64a7ed6569c1d532!8m2!3d12.6552355!4d100.9231973?hl=en-GB

 

There is a promotion on  from the 11th of may  250 Baht for 18 holes, 20 baht for a trolley or 400 baht for a buggy (18 holes).

 

2 . The royal Thai Marine course Sattahip 9 holes

https://www.google.co.th/maps/search/royal+Thai+marine+course/@12.6553274,100.8881776,13z/data=!3m1!4b1?hl=en-GB

Bob and I are playing there this week and the price is 270 Baht for 18 hole with I thik if I remember correctly a trolley for 20 bht, buggies are available.

 

3 Not a Navy course, The Kwan 9 hole, a par 3 in a lovely setting and great people who run it  where I go for short iron practice but still worth a visit.

https://www.google.co.th/maps/place/Golf+Kwan+สนามกอล์ฟขวัญ/@12.7287251,100.9851741,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3102f2ce8e8f9f5b:0xb064482343fc51b2!8m2!3d12.7287199!4d100.9873628?hl=en-GB

Bob and I play 2 times a week with Tee off at 7 0 am you are welcome to join in. ( as long as you can fit in with 2 grumpy old curmudgeons) 

https://birdie.in.th/en/golf-courses/thailand/chonburi/sattahip/royal-thai-fleet-golf-course-a

 

You will have to have a caddy at these place listed hereunder with the exception of the "Fleet" course.

 

https://birdie.in.th/en/golf-courses/thailand/chonburi/sattahip

 

 

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, n210mp said:

Maybe I have been a little hard on you Lacessit  and in that " positive thought" will answer your question on the basis that it is asked in a nice  manner with no sting in its tail when I answer,  hahaha! ( you are too switched on to have any simple "Curiosity" 

 

I am 75  been playing golf since I was 66 and play off the "ladies Tees" together with another old curmudgeon  Bobbo a  74 year old Texan who has played golf since he was 9 years old. (the reason we play off the ladies tees is that in the last couple of months the walk in the heat and high humidity has been really harsh especially since we both have problems with leg injuries from our other hobby cycling. 

 

To answer your question and bit of info

Bob generously gives me a shot a hole,  ( Not long ago,In his early 60s Bob was a scratch golfer) so the answer is that when I play with Bob my HC is 18. It used to be a little less before I fell off my cycle in 2015 breaking my right leg in 5 places including compound fractures.

 

Bob and I play at the 2 Thai navy courses where you do not need to have a caddy  ( I am sure you are familiar with  them).

We walk 18 holes twice a week and visit the driving range maybe once a week. we also ride our bikes/bicycles 2/3 times a week around the Pattaya/Bangchang/ Sattahip areas averaging 50/60 Ks a ride.

 

I dont suppose for one minute that you will wish to play on the notorious watery and narrowish fairways  where we play but it would be interesting to maybe have a game with you and Learn if we could keep up to your pace?

It goes without saying that of course we would welcome another "curmudgeon " to make the golf that little bit more interesting. So you have an "open" invitation.       

I am 76, and started playing golf at age 13. I don't need to get into any pissing contest on handicaps. Like you, I get the concession in the local competitions of hitting off the reds. I play 9 holes three times a week off the whites, 18 holes once a month. I have to prepare carefully for walking 18 holes. Your exercise regime is far more extensive than mine. Swimming is my other form of exercise.

The reason I asked is in every golf club I have belonged to, there will be at least one member who compensates for their golfing mediocrity by becoming walking encyclopedias on golf etiquette and the Rules of Golf. Some are nice people who are trying to help others. A few become officious bores.

Most low handicappers have a reasonable working knowledge of etiquette and golf rules. They don't sweat the small stuff. I started my golf in the caddie system in Australia, where you either learned etiquette or you got booted out. Sadly, that system has died out.

Thank you for the invitation. However, I reside in Chiang Mai. I play most of my golf at Gymkhana, which I would be confident can match most courses in narrowness. Six holes out of nine with water in play. I've played a couple of courses in the Pattaya area many years ago; however, the only one I can remember is Eastern Star. Possibly Pattaya Golf Club? as well.

Currently, my ambition is to break my age. I've been agonisingly close since age 72. I console myself with the thought each birthday gives me an extra stroke leeway. My problem is I get tired and lose concentration on the second nine. If I could quit after 9 and simply multiply that score by 2, I would have done it multiple times.

 

Thank you for your polite response and the personal information. I'll put down your previous responses to the fact I annoyed you, which I have been known to do with others.

[gmac]

32 minutes ago, n210mp said:

Yes very happy to pass on any info gmac. Caddies are not required at these three places but of course you can bring your own like many golfers do hahaha!

 

The places where I and my friend play are the;

1 The royal Thai fleet course at Dongan beach Sattahip  9 holes

 https://www.google.co.th/maps/place/The+Royal+Thai+Fleet+9+hole+golf+course+Sattahip/@12.6552407,100.9210086,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x31028b5e0dc688db:0x64a7ed6569c1d532!8m2!3d12.6552355!4d100.9231973?hl=en-GB

 

There is a promotion on  from the 11th of may  250 Baht for 18 holes, 20 baht for a trolley or 400 baht for a buggy (18 holes).

 

2 . The royal Thai Marine course Sattahip 9 holes

https://www.google.co.th/maps/search/royal+Thai+marine+course/@12.6553274,100.8881776,13z/data=!3m1!4b1?hl=en-GB

Bob and I are playing there this week and the price is 270 Baht for 18 hole with I thik if I remember correctly a trolley for 20 bht, buggies are available.

 

3 Not a Navy course, The Kwan 9 hole, a par 3 in a lovely setting and great people who run it  where I go for short iron practice but still worth a visit.

https://www.google.co.th/maps/place/Golf+Kwan+สนามกอล์ฟขวัญ/@12.7287251,100.9851741,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3102f2ce8e8f9f5b:0xb064482343fc51b2!8m2!3d12.7287199!4d100.9873628?hl=en-GB

Bob and I play 2 times a week with Tee off at 7 0 am you are welcome to join in. ( as long as you can fit in with 2 grumpy old curmudgeons) 

https://birdie.in.th/en/golf-courses/thailand/chonburi/sattahip/royal-thai-fleet-golf-course-a

 

You will have to have a caddy at these place listed hereunder with the exception of the "Fleet" course.

 

https://birdie.in.th/en/golf-courses/thailand/chonburi/sattahip

 

 

Thanks very much, I know the Kwan 9 hole which as you say is very short and about the only place I go these days as it is about 5 minutes from my house!  A longer course without a caddy would most welcome, so thanks for the locations. 

 

Thanks also for the invite to join you at Kwan golf but a 7 o'clock start would be difficult and I'm not sure my lousy golf could stand up to the scrutiny of 2 grumpy old curmudgeons! 

[gmac]

Just looked up the Royal Thai Marine course location and I'm sure I've played there before but always with a caddy.  Didn't realise it was possible to play without one.

 

edit)  Maybe not, looks like it is side by side with the Plutaluang course which is where I would have played.

[n210mp]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I am 76, and started playing golf at age 13. I don't need to get into any pissing contest on handicaps. Like you, I get the concession in the local competitions of hitting off the reds. I play 9 holes three times a week off the whites, 18 holes once a month. I have to prepare carefully for walking 18 holes. Your exercise regime is far more extensive than mine. Swimming is my other form of exercise.

The reason I asked is in every golf club I have belonged to, there will be at least one member who compensates for their golfing mediocrity by becoming walking encyclopedias on golf etiquette and the Rules of Golf. Some are nice people who are trying to help others. A few become officious bores.

Most low handicappers have a reasonable working knowledge of etiquette and golf rules. They don't sweat the small stuff. I started my golf in the caddie system in Australia, where you either learned etiquette or you got booted out. Sadly, that system has died out.

Thank you for the invitation. However, I reside in Chiang Mai. I play most of my golf at Gymkhana, which I would be confident can match most courses in narrowness. Six holes out of nine with water in play. I've played a couple of courses in the Pattaya area many years ago; however, the only one I can remember is Eastern Star. Possibly Pattaya Golf Club? as well.

Currently, my ambition is to break my age. I've been agonisingly close since age 72. I console myself with the thought each birthday gives me an extra stroke leeway. My problem is I get tired and lose concentration on the second nine. If I could quit after 9 and simply multiply that score by 2, I would have done it multiple times.

 

Thank you for your polite response and the personal information. I'll put down your previous responses to the fact I annoyed you, which I have been known to do with others.

" am 76, and started playing golf at age 13. I don't need to get into any pissing contest on handicaps. Like you" from your last reply

 

Hang on a minute there but  are you also getting forgetful in your?

dotage" 

 

Wasn't it your post, herewith I quote you that asked for my HC?

  11 hours ago, Lacessit said:

"As a matter of curiosity, what is your handicap?"

 

In other words  Lacessit you  brought the subject of handicaps up,  I only mentioned my handicap when you asked for it which makes  the opening statement of your last post a bit "disingenuous " your post and I quote again "I am 76, and started playing golf at age 13. I don't need to get into any pissing contest on handicaps. Like you,"

 

I have tried to be nice and courteous but now in view of your remarks and at best " forgetfulness"  must treat you as a "troll or minimally a flamer"

 

Its a pity you live so far away because you would fit in nicely with your "Curmudgeonly" ways in our little group where your attitude and forgetfulness of anything that doesn't suit your argument or debate would be used , indeed as it has been in your replies to the OP

 

But dont worry too much becasue like the 1/4 ball team who  yesterday managed to ruffle the waters, no harm was done and maybe just a little maybe in the winter of our summer  I,  like you in your replies secretly enjoy the stimulation of a good argument or debate.....Right or wrong seemingly irrelevant!