TM28/TM30 Clarification

[KhaoYai]

Can someone provide some clarity to the issue of TM28's and TM30's - I don't mean what immigration in your area does, I mean the actual rules.

 

As I understand it, filing a TM30 is the housemaster's responsibility - although, as in my case, some areas are now allowing the foreigner to register themselves - either online or at an Immigration Office. I thought, in doing that, I had fully complied with the law.

 

A TM28 is a (as stated on the form) 'FORM  FOR ALIENS TO NOTIFY THEIR CHANGE OF ADDRESS OR THEIR STAY IN THE PROVINCE FOR OVER 24 HOURS'. Clearly this is the visitor's responsibility.

 

Reading that literally, although I register online (TM30) each time I arrive in Thailand, I should also register my presence as I'm staying more than 24 hours by TM28. I have not been offered the facility to report the TM28 online - only the TM30 so I could still be breaking the law. Or have I fulfilled the TM28 requirements by stating my address on my landing card? If that is the case then how about this...... I often stay in Bangkok for the first night and travel home the next day. Would I therefore have to write the Bangkok hotel's name on the landing card and report both TM28 and TM30 when I arrive home?

 

Again reading it literally, everyone who arrives in Thailand and stays anywhere other than where they stated on the landing card, for more than 24 hours, should also register.

 

It has always been my understanding that once registered at a particular address, any change of address longer than 24 hours must be notified and that conducting such notification automatically changes my registration to the new one so when I return 'home' I must register again. So far, I have avoided that by checking in to hotels using my Thai driving licence rather than my passport - accepted up to now.

 

I would have thought that if you are staying at a hotel, there is no need for you to do a TM28 but if you stay with friends for example, the housemaster must register you (TM30) and you must submit a TM28.  This seems crazy as it could involve a long trip to the nearest Immigration Office.

 

There has to be something wrong with/missing from, the title of the TM28 form, surely?

 

Again, although they could cause even more confusion, I would like to see the actual rules on this (in English if possible) rather than what is happening on the ground, at the moment. The situation seems to be changing and what is acceptable today, might not be acceptable tomorrow.

Edited May 29, 2019 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

Just noticed on the TM28 form - its states (a) 'Your local police station must be notified of any change of address within 24  hours' - so that makes things easier, not having to go to the Immigration Office.

 

However, the same form also states (b) 'A stay in another of over 24 hours must be reported with 48  hours of arrival in that place' (I take 'another' to mean another province and 'with' to be within). Clear as mud - does that mean your original notification of arrival in Thailand must be within 24 hours and then any futher moves (over 24 hours) must be reported within 48 hours?

 

Surely if you entered the address where you first stay on your arrival card, which you must to do, then the next time you move and stay in a different province, reading that you would get 48 hours (b) to report it? If so, that makes the first item (a) redundant and the reporting requirment is actually 48 hours not 24 hours??  Or is it, moving to an address within the same province 24 hours, moving to an address in a different province 48 hours? As I say, clear as mud!

 

All barmy and mostly unlikely to be enforced, but I just don't understand it and would like to see the regulations

tm28.pdf

[DrJack54]

Bumping your thread because you have no replies. I am not expert so take this with grain of salt. Experts like ubonjoe along soon.

So...the tm28/30 is in the main for folk living here. The general tourists pretty much need do nothing. 

As for people on extensions etc actually living here.. That's different. By letter of the law...every time you change location you need file tm30 within 24 hours. Yes crap I know. If you change your "existing residence" you need file tm28. 

Even more stupid is if you spend night in another province, again you need file tm28. 

If you take trip outside los and return to your previous address you still need file tm30. (Its funny isn't it, but wait)

In the past places such as CW, bkk have never required any of this. Recently have. (Perhaps related to 800baht fine).

You can't make this stuff up. I love los but its run by dills.

[BritTim]

<sarcasm>It is all made perfectly clear in Sections 37 and 38 of the Immigration Act</sarcasm>:

Quote

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following : 
... 
2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place. 
3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area with the former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival. 
4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival. 
5. If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division , in writing , concerning his place of stay , as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office , the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office. 
The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as prescribed by the Director General. 
In making notification under this Section , the alien may make notification in person or send a letter of notification to the competent official , in accordance with the regulations prescribed by the Director General .

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified. 
In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of Para.1 is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the Immigration Division. 
Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with regulations prescribed by the Director General.

Obviously Section 37 covers the TM28 and the 90-day address report. Section 38 covers the TM30.

Fortunately, nowhere are the regulations as laid down in Section 37 and Section 38 followed exactly. To what extent they are enforced varies completely from one immigration office to another.

[Tanoshi]

14 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

All barmy and mostly unlikely to be enforced, but I just don't understand it and would like to see the regulations

They are laws not regulations and can be found in the Immigration Act.

Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979) en - immigration.pdf

At the time of the Act in 1979, there were very few Immigration offices, you should therefore now substitute the wording 'police stations' to 'Immigration offices', with one exception, if there is no Immigration office within the Province, then the local Police station suffices.

 

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the
following :
2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason
that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

(This is reference to the TM28 requirement. Only required if moving to a new residence. i.e. A change of permanent residential address within the same province or another Province).

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office
located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

Section 4 : In this Act :
“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

(This is reference to the TM30 requirement).

[AYJAYDEE]

15 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

They are laws not regulations and can be found in the Immigration Act.

Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979) en - immigration.pdf 87.61 kB · 0 downloads

At the time of the Act in 1979, there were very few Immigration offices, you should therefore now substitute the wording 'police stations' to 'Immigration offices', with one exception, if there is no Immigration office within the Province, then the local Police station suffices.

 

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the
following :
2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason
that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

(This is reference to the TM28 requirement. Only required if moving to a new residence. i.e. A change of permanent residential address within the same province or another Province).

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office
located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.

Section 4 : In this Act :
“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

(This is reference to the TM30 requirement).

37.4 reads 4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival. This would also refer to TM28

[DrJack54]

To Tansohi and BritTim. You guys post lot of good advice in many threads. When you read the regs re tm30..28...47..etc

Do you shake your heads or am the only one that is stupid.

Edited May 29, 2019 by DrJack54

[BritTim]

5 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

To Tansohi and BritTim. You guys post lot of good advice in many threads. When you read the regs re tm30..28...47..etc

Do you shake your heads or am the only one that is stupid.

This is one of the areas of Thai bureaucracy where you must either laugh or cry. Very few of the officials understand what on earth the Immigration Act is going on about which probably accounts for the inconsistent enforcement, and myriad interpretations. So, rather than "shake your head" see if you can get the total absurdity of it, throw back your head and laugh.

[Tanoshi]

36 minutes ago, AYJAYDEE said:

37.4 reads 4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival. This would also refer to TM28

That would not be a change in a permanent residential address, it would be a temporary stay in another Province.

[Chazar]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

competent official.

There's  the  first  problem!

[Chazar]

44 minutes ago, AYJAYDEE said:

37.4 reads 4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival. This would also refer to TM28

I only  ever  stay anywhere  23hrs 59  minutes just  to  get  them excited.

[fusion58]

Re: TM28:

 

There's the home my wife owns and the condo (both in BKK.) We divide our time between the two. I've been using the former address for all of my extensions and reports hitherto, for the sake of convenience, but I used the condo address when I applied for the (newly minted) TE visa as we're spending more time there nowadays.

 

I guess I've probably left myself open for TI to have a whole lot of "fun" at my expense.

 

Note to self: Stock up on KY before next visit to CW.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

To Tansohi and BritTim. You guys post lot of good advice in many threads. When you read the regs re tm30..28...47..etc

Do you shake your heads or am the only one that is stupid.

40 years ago it probably made sense, now it's outdated, not practical or workable in many instances. Things that were black or white, are now grey, misinterpreted leading to differing opinions, not just from the likes of ourselves, but the Immigration officer or the Immigration Office.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Tanoshi

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

40 years ago it probably made sense, now it's outdated, not practical or workable in many instances. Things that were black or white, are now grey, misinterpreted leading to differing opinions, not just from the likes of ourselves, but the Immigration officer or the Immigration Office.

Agree totally. The Thai authorities claim to be enforcing these crazy rules in order to know where we all are - especially the 'bad guys'.  As I said in another thread, TM28 or TM30 reporting is not going to acheive that - bad guys simply won't notify anyone of where they are living.  All that it causes is a bureaucratic nightmare for themselves which is only going to increase as the step up enforcment - and of course, a waste of time for us.

Edited May 30, 2019 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

7 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

(This is reference to the TM28 requirement. Only required if moving to a new residence. i.e. A change of permanent residential address within the same province or another Province).

With the greatest respect - is this something you have added from experience? Its not there in the copy that BritTim posted.

 

7 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

(This is reference to the TM30 requirement).

Again, is this actually part of the act? If it is then Korat Immigration are wrong.  I have a Usufuct and am therefore the 'cheif possesor'. Korat initially demanded the registered owner was present when they set up the online reporting.  I argued that she lives in Surin - a 2 1/2 hour drive away, I found a specific power of attorney (see attachment) + signed copies of her Tabien Baan and ID card and they backed down.

 

 

Power-of-Attorney-Form for TM30.pdf

[jackdd]

7 hours ago, AYJAYDEE said:

37.4 reads 4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time of arrival. This would also refer to TM28

37.4 only applies to aliens who are illegally in Thailand, see the last sentence of section 37

 

7 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

At the time of the Act in 1979, there were very few Immigration offices, you should therefore now substitute the wording 'police stations' to 'Immigration offices'

Section 37 says police station, Section 38 says immigration office, both written in 1979, so the lack of immigration offices back then is most likely not the reason.

Most likely section 37 sub section 2, 3 and 4 was written to track the movement of people who are in the country illegally. Sub sections 3 and 4 only apply to them, and i'm quite sure that back then they just forgot to add sub section 2 to the exempt list for people who stay legally in Thailand, because as it is it just doesn't make sense.

 

7 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

(This is reference to the TM28 requirement. Only required if moving to a new residence. i.e. A change of permanent residential address within the same province or another Province). 

This is not what the law says, but this is an interpretation which Ubonjoe once posted, which is imho wrong. According to Thai law we are temporary visitors in the Kingdom (unless having permanent residency), so by definition we can't have a "permanent residential address" and because we don't have this there is also no way to change this.

 

Regarding TM28:

If you entered Thailand legally only sub sections 1, 2 and 5 of section 37 apply to you.

Sub section 1 is about needing a work permit and 5 about 90 day reports.

This leaves us with sub section 2 which says:

If you can not (it clearly says "can not", not something like "if you don't") at the place as indicated to the competent official (with your arrival card you indicate such a place), you have to report to your nearest police station. So only in this case you have to submit a TM28.

Edited May 30, 2019 by jackdd

[Peterw42]

OP, forget about TM28, the only thing you need to worry about is the TM30 reporting.

TM28 is really only used if you change your permanent address to a new Immigration office. There are no checks on TM28, no fines, no receipts to be carried etc. 

 

 

[rumak]

8 hours ago, BritTim said:

<sarcasm>It is all made perfectly clear in Sections 37 and 38 of the Immigration Act</sarcasm>:

Obviously Section 37 covers the TM28 and the 90-day address report. Section 38 covers the TM30.

Fortunately, nowhere are the regulations as laid down in Section 37 and Section 38 followed exactly. To what extent they are enforced varies completely from one immigration office to another.

"obviously"  is a word that should be used with extreme caution when posting on this site 

[AYJAYDEE]

14 minutes ago, jackdd said:

37.4 only applies to aliens who are illegally in Thailand, see the last sentence of section 37

 

Section 37 says police station, Section 38 says immigration office, both written in 1979, so the lack of immigration offices back then is most likely not the reason.

Most likely section 37 sub section 2, 3 and 4 was written to track the movement of people who are in the country illegally. Sub sections 3 and 4 only apply to them, and i'm quite sure that back then they just forgot to add sub section 2 to the exempt list for people who stay legally in Thailand, because as it is it just doesn't make sense.

 

This is not what the law says, but this is an interpretation which Ubonjoe once posted, which is imho wrong. According to Thai law we are temporary visitors in the Kingdom (unless having permanent residency), so by definition we can't have a "permanent residential address" and because we don't have this there is also no way to change this.

 

Regarding TM28:

If you entered Thailand legally only sub sections 1, 2 and 5 of section 37 apply to you.

Sub section 1 is about needing a work permit and 5 about 90 day reports.

This leaves us with sub section 2 which says:

If you can not (it clearly says "can not", not something like "if you don't") at the place as indicated to the competent official (with your arrival card you indicate such a place), you have to report to your nearest police station. So only in this case you have to submit a TM28.

I cannot understand what section 37 means as it is gibberish.

[BritTim]

13 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Can someone provide some clarity to the issue of TM28's and TM30's - I don't mean what immigration in your area does, I mean the actual rules.

Well, having read what the law says, and absorbed all the explanations in the responses in this thread, do you feel you now have a better grasp of the process?

 

What a mess!

[OJAS]

53 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, forget about TM28, the only thing you need to worry about is the TM30 reporting.

TM28 is really only used if you change your permanent address to a new Immigration office. There are no checks on TM28, no fines, no receipts to be carried etc. 

 

 

At the moment that may well be true. However, it would IMHO be foolish to rule out entirely the possibility of individual offices suddenly (and without any advance warning) starting to enforce the requirements of section 37 in relation to the TM28 form with the same enthusiastic zeal and gusto as many of them are now applying in the case of section 38 and the TM30 form.

 

And the TM28 form does include at the bottom a receipt notification slip - the latest completed version of which, in common with those relating to the TM30 and TM47 forms, would presumably need to be affixed to one's passport.

Edited May 30, 2019 by OJAS

[Peterw42]

31 minutes ago, OJAS said:

At the moment that may well be true. However, it would IMHO be foolish to rule out entirely the possibility of individual offices suddenly (and without any advance warning) starting to enforce the requirements of section 37 in relation to the TM28 form with the same enthusiastic zeal and gusto as many of them are now applying in the case of section 38 and the TM30 form.

 

And the TM28 form does include at the bottom a receipt notification slip - the latest completed version of which, in common with those relating to the TM30 and TM47 forms, would presumably need to be affixed to one's passport.

If it aint broke, why fix it ? There are 100 things in the immigration act they "may" enforce one day. 

The only times I have ever submitted a TM28, after a major move to another province, its been literally handed back, literally put in the bin or glanced at and put in the file.

 

If and when there is any enforcement, it will probably be nothing like whats written in section 37.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Peterw42

[Kron]

26 minutes ago, OJAS said:

At the moment that may well be true. However, it would IMHO be foolish to rule out entirely the possibility of individual offices suddenly (and without any advance warning) starting to enforce the requirements of section 37 in relation to the TM28 form with the same enthusiastic zeal and gusto as many of them are now applying in the case of section 38 and the TM30 form.

 

And the TM28 form does include at the bottom a receipt notification slip - the latest completed version of which, in common with those relating to the TM30 and TM47 forms, would presumably need to be affixed to one's passport.

Certainly agree.

 

The portion of the TM6 card you retain does not include an address, so you have no record/receipt as to what has been submitted to Passport Control when you entered Thailand. To prevent any possible 'confusion' maybe doing the TM28 form and getting a receipt could be prudent.

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

With the greatest respect - is this something you have added from experience? Its not there in the copy that BritTim posted.

You register your permanent residency with Immigration, thus enabling reports to be made at the IO within that Province, you cannot report to another IO unless you formally register a new permanent address (TM28).

If you temporarily stay in another Province, then the hotel, guest house or private residence where you stay should file a TM30 reporting your arrival. Your registered address remains unchanged.

 

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Again, is this actually part of the act? If it is then Korat Immigration are wrong.  I have a Usufuct and am therefore the 'cheif possesor'. Korat initially demanded the registered owner was present when they set up the online reporting.  I argued that she lives in Surin - a 2 1/2 hour drive away, I found a specific power of attorney (see attachment) + signed copies of her Tabien Baan and ID card and they backed down.

Yes, that is clearly written in section 4 of the Act under definition of terms used in the Act.

The online system has recently been changed allowing private residencies and foreigners to register the TM30 online. I and many other foreigners have now registered for this service.

 

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

37.4 only applies to aliens who are illegally in Thailand, see the last sentence of section 37

My interpretation and personal opinion, which is confirmed and the interpretation of my local IO, is that 37.3 and 37.4 do not apply to those who entered Thailand under section 34.

 

The provision of ( 3 ) and ( 4 ) shall not apply to any cases under Section 34 by any conditions as
prescribed by the Director General.

Section 34 : aliens entering into the kingdom for a temporary stay may enter for the below listed activities
1. Diplomatic or Consular Missions.
2. Performance of official duties.
3. Touring
4. Sporting
5. Business
6. Investing under the concurrence of the Ministries and Departments concerned.
7. Investing or other activities relating to investing subject to the provisions of the law on
investment promotion.
8. Transit journey.
9. Being the person in charge of the crew of a conveyance coming to port, station , or area in
the Kingdom.
10. Study or observation.
11. Mass media.
12. Missionary work under the concurrence of the Ministries and departments concerned.
13. Scientific research or training or teach in a Research Institute in the Kingdom.
14. The practice of skilled handicraft or as a specialist
15. Other activities as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

 

Those who entered or have extensions from Non O's based on retirement or marriage, are classed under section 15 (Other).

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

Section 37 says police station, Section 38 says immigration office, both written in 1979, so the lack of immigration offices back then is most likely not the reason.

Most likely section 37 sub section 2, 3 and 4 was written to track the movement of people who are in the country illegally. Sub sections 3 and 4 only apply to them, and i'm quite sure that back then they just forgot to add sub section 2 to the exempt list for people who stay legally in Thailand, because as it is it just doesn't make sense.

In 1979, I'm not sure if other than Bangkok, there were any other Immigration offices open.

Local reports under section 37 were then made at local Police stations.

Reports under section 38 were always submitted to Bangkok and still are.

 

A friend who's been here over 35 years tells me in the early days he travelled to Bangkok to do his extensions, then years later to Korat when it opened.

He never filed 90 day reports for years because the local Police stations weren't interested.

Those local Police stations have now been replaced with local Immigration offices in almost every Province.

 

 

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, forget about TM28, the only thing you need to worry about is the TM30 reporting.

TM28 is really only used if you change your permanent address to a new Immigration office. There are no checks on TM28, no fines, no receipts to be carried etc. 

I moved several times when I first cam to Thailand.

I filed a TM28 and TM30 each time and had two receipts stapled in my passport.

 

More recently, the IO's disregard the TM28 and update your file from the TM30.

Provided you have the receipt from a TM30 report being submitted and filed then you've covered your backside.

The TM28's were only filed locally for the purpose of updating your information on your local IO's database to avoid issues when filing extensions etc. (No online facility).

TM30's and TM47's filed online using the extranet update what I'll refer to as the National database in Bangkok. These are then forwarded to your local IO's local database for approval or recognition.

 

 

[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, jackdd said:

This is not what the law says, but this is an interpretation which Ubonjoe once posted, which is imho wrong. According to Thai law we are temporary visitors in the Kingdom (unless having permanent residency), so by definition we can't have a "permanent residential address" and because we don't have this there is also no way to change this.

Well I agree with UJ in this respect.

The majority of long term expats although only having temporary permission to stay, have a fixed abode.

I use the word residential in reference to private dwellings, Condo's, houses.

Hotels, guesthouses are Commercial residences and usually temporary places of residence.

[AAArdvark]

Which province is the TM-28 supposed to filed with?  Say you live in province F and stay in province Y in a hotel for 48 hours, do you file in F or Y?

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, AAArdvark said:

Which province is the TM-28 supposed to filed with?  Say you live in province F and stay in province Y in a hotel for 48 hours, do you file in F or Y?

Neither one since immigration does not enforce that part of the TM28 form requirement.

If you went by what it says you would report to both provinces. The F would done 24 hours after you return.