SURVEY: Would you recommend Thailand as a retirement destination?

[colinneil]

5 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Putting aside the discussion about 'your' land, where on earth did you get the idea that you can build anything on 'your' land without any sort of planning permission?

 

Total rubbish comment.  Although many of the planning regulations are more lax than in western countries, I'd love to see what happens if you go ahead and build on 'your' land without getting permission from your local OrBorTor office ????

Where do you get the idea from that people get permission from the Orbortor?

There are 2 houses being built in this village now without any permission from anybody.

 

[Orton Rd]

9 minutes ago, Kasane said:

But not street smart.

It was in the airport not the street, jet lagged and tired. Maybe he thought this was the land of smiles instead of scams!

[JaiLai]

12 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Putting aside the discussion about 'your' land, where on earth did you get the idea that you can build anything on 'your' land without any sort of planning permission?

 

Total rubbish comment.  Although many of the planning regulations are more lax than in western countries, I'd love to see what happens if you go ahead and build on 'your' land without getting permission from your local OrBorTor office ????

Too funny - i've lived on 'the' land for 8 years now, house built off a plan i did on an excel spreadsheet, simple.....

 

Maybe i should have said anything residential, i guess it'd raise a few eyebrows if i put an airport or something on it...

 

I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand, i'm a little bit off the grid, no mains water etc, not sure if that makes a difference, not being in the muang?

 

So you can poke your 'total rubbish' comment up your botty as you've obviously no idea what you're on about.

[JaiLai]

8 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Where do you get the idea from that people get permission from the Orbortor?

There are 2 houses being built in this village now without any permission from anybody.

 

Yay, something we can agree on.....

 

 

[bluesofa]

34 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Where do you get the idea from that people get permission from the Orbortor?

There are 2 houses being built in this village now without any permission from anybody.

I'd agree with that.

There are planning regulations, but they're not very well applied unless there's specifically a reason to do so.

My wife has managed a few projects where the owners having houses built have not bothered to inform the Or Bor Tor or Tessaban, despite being told it should be done.

 

It's only usually when there's a knock-on effect it gets checked.

One owner wanted to borrow some money against their land after building a house on it. The bank insisted on seeing a copy of the Tessaban's approval for building the house before releasing the money.

All that was needed was to apply for retrospective approval, which was granted with a minimum of fuss.

[Genmai]

On 6/9/2019 at 11:20 AM, connda said:

I do not recommend either retiring in Thailand or worse, marrying a Thai national for numerous reasons:

Immigration is now moving the goalposts on short notice with increasing regularity.  We all simply wait for the next shoe to drop.

No consistency in the application of immigration law between immigration offices if not between individual immigration officers, many who seem to have never read the current police orders which are published online.  They make their own rules and there is nothing you can do - you have no recourse other than to comply or leave.  
No sense of any humanitarianism at all as we recently watched a 77 year old Alzheimer's patient forced out of the country because she could no longer meet the newly changed Retirement Visa rules - but worse imho was that she has a serious Medical Condition - Alzheimer's...The Long Goodbye - and was a resident in a Thai Medical Facility for Alzheimer's patients, and yet this heartless government could not extend her a Medical Visa for her Medical Condition and instead insisted on her having a retirement visa instead.  The family could not afford the cost of care and the cost of the new Retirement Visa regulations implemented March 1 - so the elderly invalid with a terminal Medical Condition was shown the door.  It sheer lunacy.  Keep that in mind long-stay expats when you become old and disabled with medical problems as you'll be shown the door too in your hour of need.  

Thailand has the one of the most dangerous road systems in the world and recently was The Most Dangerous Roads in the World #1.  Traffic enforcement of moving violations is non-existance, therefore the roads are simply anarchy.  Drivers are ill trained and a large percentage are extremely aggressive.  This leads to a high number of daily deaths (average about 60/day) and accidents.
Northern Thailand is choked by PM 2.5 particulate that is dangerous to human health as evidenced by the North having exceedingly high lung disease rates.  This choking smoke lasted 4 months this year or 1/3 of a year from February though the month of May.  And at times this year the North had The Most Dangerous Air Quality in the World #1.
We constantly see Thai-on-foreigner violence.  The most recent telling incidents being a taxi driver kidnapping two Korean tourists, robbing and beating them with the excuse that they asked him to turn on his meter.  And the latest in absurdity was the recent plea from Phuket police officials to taxi drivers asking them not the "Cheat" or "Beat" tourists - you have got to be kidding!  "Pretty please - don't Beat The Tourist as it's bad for our image.  Amazing!
Xenophobia in this country is institutionalize. 
For those marrying a Thai and raising a family, if you are a male you'll have no path to permanent residency and given the winds of fate Thai Immigration could break up your family.  If your wife dies you'll need to get a different visa.  If you can not, you get separated from your family unless you are supporting a minor child.  But if your kids have grown, regardless of the sacrifice you placed in providing for and supporting your extended family for years - you'll be shown the door. No compassion; no humanitarianism.  
Live in the beach areas and they are a polluted, plastic stewn mess.
You'll always be an outsider, and outsiders are subject to two-tiered pricing.  
If you moved to Thailand because you are Buddhist, welcome to the new Buddhism where you, my good foreign Buddhist, will be charged money to enter their Thai Buddhist Temples to worship!  No longer do you make an offering, you if you wish to worship you'll be charged at the door for the privilege to worship with Thai Buddhists who pay nothing.  Not all temples, but its becoming a disturbing trends.
Volunteer to help Thailand, such as teaching school children English for free, do so at your own risk - it can land you in jail for being a philanthropist and deported.
As a foreigners you simply are considered a potential criminal.  As such you movements must be monitored literally on a 24 hour basis.  Not constantly reporting your whereabouts is a criminal offense, which will simply prove Immigration's premise that all foreigners are potential criminals.  
And the bottom line: You are considered a walking ATM.  If your money runs below some government threshold, even for a short period of time - you're out, and if you don't get out quick enough than you are a criminal overstayer and its jail then deportation for you.  So therefore there is no security or stability in creating a life in Thailand.  You are here on the whim of a government who neither trusts you nor particularly wants you to stay.  Just leave your money - and get out.

If you like living that Machiavellian existence - fine!  Some people are masochists.  But there are better places to retire.  I suggest looking elsewhere.  Had I not married 11 years ago, I would not now be here.  And if this Immigration dog-and-pony show get much more stupid - I'm leaving.  

So you have my take - I in no way recommend staying here other than for a short visit, and even at that there are much better places in this world to vacation.
 

 

A great post with all valid points that mirror my experiences here.

 

I want to mention something that nobody has yet talked about and that is the insane ordeal of starting a business, obtaining a work visa and employing Thai staff. I've been asked before about the viability of doing this by retirees who cannot meet immigration's new demands - essentially my answer is "don't do it". It might also be useful information for those considering opening up a company in Thailand, but basically the entire process is a very expensive nightmare and is compounded by all of the points mentioned by @connda at every step. Idiotic behavior masked as national character traits come into play heavily here.

 

Just as an example - from the moment of incorporating my Thai company to the moment I was finally issued a work permit the time spent was almost 12 months. Even for something simple like company registration my lawyer had to compile multiple copies of my documents and bring a change of clothes in his car for a potential multi-day trip. Why? Because he had to drive around different districts until he found an office where the officials didn’t make up rules and regulations as they liked. Just as with immigration every office had their own interpretation of what the rules meant to them.

 

For the work visa it was equally stupid and inept as for all other visas. The immigration office in CM could only process 5-7 business applicants per day so it took us many tries to even manage a queue card. Sometimes we would be notified that immigration made a spelling mistake on their own form so the form had been reprinted, but now it has a new number and so must be resubmitted. Obviously not our fault. Back again to waiting at 5am to get a queue to submit a new paper at 2pm. Stone age.

 

Then there are all the useless complications of having to justify to the Thai government why you should be employed by your company which you sponsored and run... Oh, did I say your company? I forgot - you don't really own it. Just the 49% of it. Don't forget your 4 Thai staff! You need 4 for every foreigner employed, and your partner cannot be one of the 4 - has to be other people. Also don't forget your government mandated minimum wage for foreigner! 50,000 baht - almost five times that of what most Thais make! Also - make sure no one catches you doing forbidden labor, like carrying a crate of potatoes in your own restaurant, accepting customers' money in your own cafe, or giving a ride to someone and accepting a few hundred baht!

 

And oh my Buddha - the Thai staff... I don't want to say we treated them like gold but in the beginning we were extremely flexible with their schedule, provided watercolors and paper for their kids when they brought them to work, didn't scold them for making the same mistake 10 times in a row, made them fruit smoothies on hot days, took them out to lunch a few times a month, etc. Then after we compiled our mountain of papers and were about to lodge my application they all ganged up together and said "You're going to pay us more money or we all leave now and you can't get your visa! You need 4 staff!". We had no choice then. The compromise was that the work quality would improve. When it didn't and the same mistakes kept happening we scolded them. The next day everybody quit - and stole our furniture from the office!

 

On the topic of Thais quitting - every single worker I've employed here who decided to quit did so at the drop of a hat without honoring the standard employment agreement that states a 30 day notice must be provided so we actually have time to look for a new person since there are ongoing orders, projects, etc. Not a single person followed this protocol. Don't like work after 6 months? Gone without a trace, don't pick up phone, no notice, nothing. Although we're a tiny company we've had no choice but to install a time-card machine because staff continually abused our system by coming late/leaving early/way longer lunch breaks. Also we've had to pay for security camera installation because stock has been going missing and nobody owns up. In contrast - we've never cut a single baht out of their salary, always pay their social security and salary on time every time, don't ask anything unreasonable of them.

 

Anyway, that's my perspective coming from the angle of running a business here.

 

But ultimately what frustrates me the most isn't necessarily things like moronic hurdles and hiccups, lazy attitudes, two-faced facetious nature, murderous driving, produce laced with pesticides, increasingly hostile attitudes to foreigners, widespread lack of anything resembling service, poor quality in just about everything, worsening regulations, rising prices on par with Europe, millions of rabid stray dogs which can't be culled because "muh Buddhism", insane air pollution levels, noise, trash everywhere, corrupt police, lack of responsibility, etc etc. No, what REALLY gets to me is the Thais' total absence of any desire to improve the situation. You simply can't talk sense into them and somehow you're always the bad guy for bringing up the problem! To me there is a perversion of Buddhist values at play here that equates "Not doing harm" with "Lets not hurt peoples' feelings by telling them truthful things because we're all 5 years old and life should be sanuk happy happy fun time - you tink too much!".

 

Whatever this mystical "Land of Smiles" was that people talk about could have existed long before I came here (4 years). But from my viewpoint the Thai brand of compassion and tolerance means you should be compassionate and tolerant towards irresponsible behavior of morons. This is the biggest problem and will continue to stop any attempts at improvement.

 

So basically my answer to the survey's question is a firm NO for reasons that are more cultural rather than economic. Additionally I believe that all the issues being mentioned affect everybody - not just retirees, but younger digital nomad types and visitors in general also.

 

 

 

 

[simon43]

Quote

 

So you can poke your 'total rubbish' comment up your botty as you've obviously no idea what you're on about.
 

 

 

Clearly your OrBorTor office works in different ways to my previous OrBorTor office in north Phuket, where they employed someone to drive around to find buildings constructed without their planning permission. They would then demand 'under-the-table' high payment from the owner on threat of demolition.

 

I built 4 small hotels (10 guest rooms) and soon found that if one didn't use (and pay) a certain individual employed by the OrBorTor office to draw application plans,  ones planning application was always refused....... 

 

All in all, a nice earner for that office ????

Edited June 10, 2019 by simon43

[brokenbone]

5 hours ago, Kasane said:

Remaining nostalgically attached to falling European currencies is a losing game while one has the opportunity to get a steadily advancing Eastern country currency. 

its not nostalgia and it aint the currency either,

i transfer 100k as needed but i cant wait to take it out from the thai bank, and keep it on me, its safer i think, and that is the only thing that matter to me

[JaiLai]

39 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

Clearly your OrBorTor office works in different ways to my previous OrBorTor office in north Phuket, where they employed someone to drive around to find buildings constructed without their planning permission. They would then demand 'under-the-table' high payment from the owner on threat of demolition.

 

I built 4 small hotels (10 guest rooms) and soon found that if one didn't use (and pay) a certain individual employed by the OrBorTor office to draw application plans,  ones planning application was always refused....... 

 

All in all, a nice earner for that office ????

And there you have it......

 

Your 4 hotels in Phuket ( which is infamous for deed / planning permissions issues ) is a world apart from me building a little house on a little bit of land and midning my own business.

 

Maybe you should think a bit longer before post ' utter rubbish ' or whatever you're comment was...

[ThomasThBKK]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:12 PM, greenbottle555 said:

Retiring = dying with less pain. Thailand is not the place for that. Better to die near family and your own community. There are no elder homes for falangs in Thailand and no palliative care. All to common is the case where a falang gets "too old" to be of use and he ends up not having anyone who will truly care for him like change his toilet bowl and such.

 

There are tons of elderly homes in thailand and they advertise all over europe and the US...

[ThomasThBKK]

7 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

Clearly your OrBorTor office works in different ways to my previous OrBorTor office in north Phuket, where they employed someone to drive around to find buildings constructed without their planning permission. They would then demand 'under-the-table' high payment from the owner on threat of demolition.

 

I built 4 small hotels (10 guest rooms) and soon found that if one didn't use (and pay) a certain individual employed by the OrBorTor office to draw application plans,  ones planning application was always refused....... 

 

All in all, a nice earner for that office ????

Same in other parts, no need to use tho but pay yes, also to hire their architect to check during construction, doubtful that this "architect" does even know how to do architecture...

[GinBoy2]

Planning permission!

 

I remember very well the process of us getting 'permission' to build our house.

 

There was no structural engineer involved.

 

At the time my Lao was marginal, so I was asking questions in Thai.

 

As laughable at it sounds, their biggest concern was how many bricks it would take to complete the construction.

 

Could have fell down the day after construction, but it was all about 'bricks'....go figure! 

 

So got my piece of paper, and thankfully, those bricks are still standing 

[wisperone]

9 hours ago, Genmai said:

 

I want to mention something that nobody has yet talked about and that is the insane ordeal of starting a business, obtaining a work visa and employing Thai staff. I've been asked before about the viability of doing this by retirees who cannot meet immigration's new demands - essentially my answer is "don't do it". It might also be useful information for those considering opening up a company in Thailand, but basically the entire process is a very expensive nightmare and is compounded by all of the points mentioned by @connda at every step. Idiotic behavior masked as national character traits come into play heavily here.

 

Just as an example - from the moment of incorporating my Thai company to the moment I was finally issued a work permit the time spent was almost 12 months. Even for something simple like company registration my lawyer had to compile multiple copies of my documents and bring a change of clothes in his car for a potential multi-day trip. Why? Because he had to drive around different districts until he found an office where the officials didn’t make up rules and regulations as they liked. Just as with immigration every office had their own interpretation of what the rules meant to them.

 

For the work visa it was equally stupid and inept as for all other visas. The immigration office in CM could only process 5-7 business applicants per day so it took us many tries to even manage a queue card. Sometimes we would be notified that immigration made a spelling mistake on their own form so the form had been reprinted, but now it has a new number and so must be resubmitted. Obviously not our fault. Back again to waiting at 5am to get a queue to submit a new paper at 2pm. Stone age.

 

Then there are all the useless complications of having to justify to the Thai government why you should be employed by your company which you sponsored and run... Oh, did I say your company? I forgot - you don't really own it. Just the 49% of it. Don't forget your 4 Thai staff! You need 4 for every foreigner employed, and your partner cannot be one of the 4 - has to be other people. Also don't forget your government mandated minimum wage for foreigner! 50,000 baht - almost five times that of what most Thais make! Also - make sure no one catches you doing forbidden labor, like carrying a crate of potatoes in your own restaurant, accepting customers' money in your own cafe, or giving a ride to someone and accepting a few hundred baht!

 

And oh my Buddha - the Thai staff... I don't want to say we treated them like gold but in the beginning we were extremely flexible with their schedule, provided watercolors and paper for their kids when they brought them to work, didn't scold them for making the same mistake 10 times in a row, made them fruit smoothies on hot days, took them out to lunch a few times a month, etc. Then after we compiled our mountain of papers and were about to lodge my application they all ganged up together and said "You're going to pay us more money or we all leave now and you can't get your visa! You need 4 staff!". We had no choice then. The compromise was that the work quality would improve. When it didn't and the same mistakes kept happening we scolded them. The next day everybody quit - and stole our furniture from the office!

 

On the topic of Thais quitting - every single worker I've employed here who decided to quit did so at the drop of a hat without honoring the standard employment agreement that states a 30 day notice must be provided so we actually have time to look for a new person since there are ongoing orders, projects, etc. Not a single person followed this protocol. Don't like work after 6 months? Gone without a trace, don't pick up phone, no notice, nothing. Although we're a tiny company we've had no choice but to install a time-card machine because staff continually abused our system by coming late/leaving early/way longer lunch breaks. Also we've had to pay for security camera installation because stock has been going missing and nobody owns up. In contrast - we've never cut a single baht out of their salary, always pay their social security and salary on time every time, don't ask anything unreasonable of them.

 

Anyway, that's my perspective coming from the angle of running a business here.

 

But ultimately what frustrates me the most isn't necessarily things like moronic hurdles and hiccups, lazy attitudes, two-faced facetious nature, murderous driving, produce laced with pesticides, increasingly hostile attitudes to foreigners, widespread lack of anything resembling service, poor quality in just about everything, worsening regulations, rising prices on par with Europe, millions of rabid stray dogs which can't be culled because "muh Buddhism", insane air pollution levels, noise, trash everywhere, corrupt police, lack of responsibility, etc etc. No, what REALLY gets to me is the Thais' total absence of any desire to improve the situation. You simply can't talk sense into them and somehow you're always the bad guy for bringing up the problem! To me there is a perversion of Buddhist values at play here that equates "Not doing harm" with "Lets not hurt peoples' feelings by telling them truthful things because we're all 5 years old and life should be sanuk happy happy fun time - you tink too much!".

What a freaking nightmare. How do people put up with that in their life?

[mania]

39 minutes ago, wisperone said:

What a freaking nightmare. How do people put up with that in their life?

"Rose Colored Glasses"  ????

Edited June 10, 2019 by mania

[gk10002000]

Sure, if retiring and old, might as well go out with a smile on your face.

[greenbottle555]

14 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

There are tons of elderly homes in thailand and they advertise all over europe and the US...

Yeah there was an elderly couple staying in them for about a year until they decided to just commit double suicide. Something tells me what few are available are not able to take care of the elderly very well at all.

[fusion58]

On 6/9/2019 at 1:44 PM, ianezy0 said:

Check Forbes top 10 countries to retire in 2019.

Thailand is number 9.

link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2019/01/04/the-top-10-places-in-the-world-to-retire-2-new-lists/#2b79437756bc

 

 

LOL! ????

 

Get a load of this:

 

Quote

No. 9 Thailand, Prescher noted, “is amazingly affordable,” “a beautiful country” and stable, quiet and exotic.” International Living says a modern studio apartment there can rent for as little as $400 a month. Growing numbers of expats are retiring to Thailand, according to International Living. “A lot of those are Australians,” said Prescher, which means English is “not an unfamiliar language.”

 

[Thongkorn]

Think this topic was used about 10 years ago, Lots have moved on since then , Mostly to Vietnam/Cambodia, Now Miyamar. where they welcome people, Less red tape and easier to live, 

I dont got to Pattaya much nowadays,  i dont know anyone, all my friends have moved on, They went  years ago. The baht was  around the 70 baht for a pound then , It was not about the money more about the red tape and  the attitude of the Government towards them.its getting worse,

[simon43]

Now Miyamar. where they welcome people, Less red tape and easier to live, ..

 

Having recently returned from Myanmar, where I was working for a few years, I wonder about your comment.  Myanmar people are very welcoming, but there is no retirement visa available.  If you want to live long-term in the country, you either have to be working or be married to a Myanmar citizen.

 

Unless you know otherwise.....

[Thongkorn]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Having recently returned from Myanmar, where I was working for a few years, I wonder about your comment.  Myanmar people are very welcoming, but there is no retirement visa available.  If you want to live long-term in the country, you either have to be working or be married to a Myanmar citizen.

 

Unless you know otherwise.....

Exactly you can work.

[Cryingdick]

On 6/9/2019 at 3:41 AM, Brunolem said:

Of course... who is buying all these 10, 20, 30 or more million baht houses in Samui, Phuket, Hua Hin and other places? 

 

Are these people stupid? 

 

Plenty of foreigners are heavily invested in real estate in Thailand. 

 

They could retire anywhere and yet they chose Thailand. 

 

It doesn't mean it is the best, but that it, at least, compares favorably with the best. 

 

From what I can read above, no one is providing comparative facts, showing that country X is better than Thailand for retirement... it is just about tossing names and opinions around, but nothing solid upon which one could draw conclusions... 

 

I guess if you think 30 million Baht is big money. They could not afford a derelict abandoned shell of a house in San Francisco. So no they simply can not afford to retire anywhere. You can't really own the land the house sits on either. If you think some shabbily built pool villa in Phuket that is listed at that price and probably hasn't moved in 5 years is rich you simply do not know what rich is.

 

I can see no reason anybody with real money would subject themselves to the dumpster fire that is modern day Thailand. I guess for some people in places like Singapore where they are priced out the prices in Thailand would seem agreeable despite the fact you can't really own it. 

 

But really the amounts you list get you nothing in Monaco, Hawaii, London etc. 

[Cryingdick]

On 6/9/2019 at 11:51 AM, JaiLai said:

If you're so heavily invested here and have no intention to move why do you have another EPIC thread about all LATAM options? What's the point?

 

He is considering other countries. Much like I have often considered buying a Rolls Royce. I went online found the one most suited to my needs, calculated it's gas mileage and found one I really liked and even the right color. The only thing missing is I need to come up with the money. 

 

It's obvious he is simply stuck in Thailand.

[Longcut]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:49 PM, Expat Tom said:

I have been here for many year and regret to say that many of the Thai Smiles have turned to plastic. I would not recommend Thailand as a retirement destination and have, in fact, developed my exit strategy. Having said that, everyone's circumstance is different so to each his own. 

I renew my extension in September. That is the last one for me.