Ireland warns British PM contenders against 'dumbing down' border issue

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

The last sentence spoilt your post. Yes we have a great deal in common with our European neighbours, but definitely not with the E.u.

 We could have lived with the trading block called the EEC, a pact that was voted on by the British people. Unfortunately since that time,we have come to realise,we were conned by the political and elitist class, who all along intended to impose a political, and what many consider a non Democratic union on the unsuspecting people.

 

 

 

 

Anyone with a brain cell would have realised that the CAP policy was only ever going to result in higher prices for citizens.

 

The consequent mutation (along with the 'champagne' expenditure) needs to be curbed - but the eu elite have made it very clear that they have no intention of doing so.

[petemoss]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You seem to forget,that M.P’s are our representatives, and as such are our servants. And what has happened since the people’s Democratic decision to leave this so called union, has now left the country in a state of the people versus these arrogant tosses.

Couldn't agree more. Which is why we need the People's Confirmatory Vote to make it crystal clear exactly what we voted for.

[nontabury]

1 minute ago, petemoss said:

Is it not against Forum rules to post fake quotes?

 

It’s not fake, in that it points out the view of some remain supporting M.p’s.

Now please reply to the text, in that post.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, petemoss said:

Is it not against Forum rules to post fake quotes?

Don't worry, just press the 'report' button - as I'm sure you've already done....

 

What is wrong with you people that you resort to the report button, rather than come up with an argument against???

[petemoss]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Don't worry, just press the 'report' button - as I'm sure you've already done....

 

What is wrong with you people that you resort to the report button, rather than come up with an argument against???

No intention of pressing the report button. Who are "you people"?

 

I find it unhelpful when people attribute quotes to people who never made those quotes.

[nontabury]

16 minutes ago, petemoss said:

Couldn't agree more. Which is why we need the People's Confirmatory Vote to make it crystal clear exactly what we voted for.

 

  We already did, it was called the 2017 General Election. When 80% of the electorate voted for parties,who included in their manifestos, a promise to uphold the Democratic decision taken by the British people in the 2016 referendum.

 What you are actually saying,is that the decision did not go to your liking,so you would like us to keep voting until the people get worn down and pxssed off with the whole process, similarly to what happened in The Irish republic, when the Irish voted in their referendum to not endorse the Lisbon Treaty.

[petemoss]

Just now, nontabury said:

 

  We already did, it was called the 2017 General Election. When 80% of the electorate voted for parties,who included in their manifestos, a promise to uphold the Democratic decision taken by the British people in the 2016 referendum.

 What you are actually saying,is that the decision did not go to your liking,so you would like us to keep voting until the people get worn down and pxssed off with the whole process, similarly to what happened in The Irish republic, when the Irish voted in their referendum to not endorse the Lisbon Treaty.

1. Which party has ever abided by it's manifesto, once elected.

 

2. Please don't make wild assumptions about my opinions. I am simply saying that parliament has failed, and will continue to fail to implement an exit agreement that looks anything like the one painted to the public during the Brexit campaign. Therefore the British public have the right to endorse or reject their best efforts.

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Don't worry, just press the 'report' button - as I'm sure you've already done....

 

What is wrong with you people that you resort to the report button, rather than come up with an argument against???

 

7 minutes ago, petemoss said:

No intention of pressing the report button. Who are "you people"?

 

I find it unhelpful when people attribute quotes to people who never made those quotes.

I'm obviously missing something here.

 

"I find it unhelpful when people attribute quotes to people who never made those quotes."

 

Precisely which "quotes" (your words) are you stating to be untrue?

[nontabury]

1 minute ago, petemoss said:

1. Which party has ever abided by it's manifesto, once elected.

 

 

 

 So you agree with :- 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

14 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

What is wrong with you people that you resort to the report button, rather than come up with an argument against???

You cannot have a discussion with people who lie. 

[Rimmer]

A copyright post and other troll stuff has been removed:

 

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[dick dasterdly]

Fair enough, but let's be honest here - the 'leave' side was coming up with exaggerations prior to the referendum, whilst the 'remain' side was coming out with outright lies....

 

Nowadays, the remainers lies are more than exaggerated- which is why these types of 'memes' are pretty much truthful.

 

[petemoss]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Fair enough, but let's be honest here - the 'leave' side was coming up with exaggerations prior to the referendum, whilst the 'remain' side was coming out with outright lies....

 

Nowadays, the remainers lies are more than exaggerated- which is why these types of 'memes' are pretty much truthful.

 

YMMV. However, there's no excuse for attributing fake quotes to people no matter which side of the fence you sit on.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

The EU has taken into consideration Eire's views and supported Eire's interests.

 

The uk left it way too late to start thinking and acting, so Eire did what needed to be done.

So when was too late?

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So when was too late?

Once the Irish govt realised that the british were not taking the issue as seriously as they were.

 

I.E., after meeting with may and her equally inept govt.

 

The Irish govt had contingency talks as to how to act if brexit went ahead.

 

Did the tories do that before they launched the referendum?

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Once the Irish govt realised that the british were not taking the issue as seriously as they were.

 

I.E., after meeting with may and her equally inept govt.

Never mind. 

[CG1 Blue]

10 hours ago, petemoss said:

16 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I disagree. 

 

Hard border = a return to the troubles, lives ruined, terrorist bombings, mass murders - oh, and protection of the precious customs union

 

No hard border = continued peace, a need to work on ways to tighten border controls over the coming years using technology etc., and a few smugglers getting away with stuff in the interim.  

 

Any sane person / government / EU official would choose the latter 

No you don't disagree, you agree completely! 555

I should have made it clearer. In the event of Brexit (deal or no deal), any sane person / government / EU official would choose the latter

[stephenterry]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

It also seems that the EU has used the Irish border problems to try force several other conditions onto the UK as part of this ridiculous "WAG" treaty, which are more in the interests of the EU, than just Ireland itself. The UK government proposals were all knocked back. There has been no goodwill and Varadkar has made it worse.  

 

 

 

 

There are always two sides to a coin and two sides of an argument, which if a neutral observer offered an opinion, the truth would normally be somewhere in between.

 

This post is a typical one-sided opinion, and if it's switched to put the onus on the UK as the 'bad' guy in the negotiating treaty, there would be a whole different outlook.

 

IMO, both the UK and the EU take the blame for the WAG treaty outcome. 

[billd766]

On 6/22/2019 at 12:54 PM, stephenterry said:

It is my understanding that the EU said that the best deal for the UK would be to remain in the EU. That's being sensible.  Bear in mind that the UK Tory government is hoping to leave the EU, not the other way around. The onus is on the UK to be sensible about future trade agreements, not the EU. 

 

Gone are the colonial days when countries would kowtow to UK demands. A different world now, where 65 million cannot compete with a Union 10 times the size.

Of course the EU would say that but the EU does not run the UK or its people. The majority of people who could be bothered to vote, voted to leave. TM said very many times that the UK will leave the EU. The government, the Tory party and the Labour party all said that the UK will leave the EU. But we are still here until October 31st.

 

Ireland and the EU want the backstop and the UK is happy for them to do what they want at their own expense and not ours.

 

It would be great to be sensible about trade agreements and I hope that the EU understands that but nobody is forcing either the EU or the UK to trade exclusively with each other. There are quite a few other markets left in the world.

 

True gone are the days when countries would kowtow to the UK demands, so why should the UK have to kowtow to the EU demands?

[billd766]

On 6/22/2019 at 2:26 PM, Bluespunk said:

That is a position forced on them by Tory brexiteers ineptitude. 

 

Nothing to to do with bureaucracy. 

 

Accept the backdoor arrangement and problem solved. 

quote from your post.

 

That is a position forced on them by Tory brexiteers ineptitude. Not so, as the Brexiteers had little input and no control over what TM and the cabinet Remainers got up to. If you want to assign blame, assign it in the correct place.

[stephenterry]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Don't worry, just press the 'report' button - as I'm sure you've already done....

 

What is wrong with you people that you resort to the report button, rather than come up with an argument against???

Because constant bickering is infantile and inappropriate. Just post an opinion based on facts. 

[stephenterry]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I'm obviously missing something here.

 

"I find it unhelpful when people attribute quotes to people who never made those quotes."

 

Precisely which "quotes" (your words) are you stating to be untrue?

DD, please stop bickering. It's not appropriate and off topic. 

[stephenterry]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Of course the EU would say that but the EU does not run the UK or its people. The majority of people who could be bothered to vote, voted to leave. TM said very many times that the UK will leave the EU. The government, the Tory party and the Labour party all said that the UK will leave the EU. But we are still here until October 31st.

 

Ireland and the EU want the backstop and the UK is happy for them to do what they want at their own expense and not ours.

 

It would be great to be sensible about trade agreements and I hope that the EU understands that but nobody is forcing either the EU or the UK to trade exclusively with each other. There are quite a few other markets left in the world.

 

True gone are the days when countries would kowtow to the UK demands, so why should the UK have to kowtow to the EU demands?

As I said, it's the UK tory government who hopes to leave. As for world markets the UK has enough to last several lifetimes, including goods from the USA and China. It's a red-herring and politically motivated by the hard-line ERG MPs t chaired by Rees-Mogg that the UK would benefit from starting afresh - which means their emerging markets hedge funds would benefit from this scenario.

 

To lose trades  - and begin again - with the largest single market on our doorstop is nonsensical. There is no economic rationale for doing that. 

 

As for the backstop, I'm positive that neither the UK, Eire or the EU would  want 'civil war' to beak out in Ireland if a hard border is the only choice. The Good Friday agreement is paramount to peace, and the UK is committed to preserving that. I hope you are, as well.

 

[CG1 Blue]

4 hours ago, petemoss said:

So Brexiteers will only accept facts published in Brexiteer newspapers and remainers will only accept facts published in remainer newspapers. How divided and entrenched a nation we have become.

Both parties would do well to remember the line in Joe Cox's maiden speech to Parliament and which she is most remembered. "We have far more in common than that which divides us".

This is particularly applicable to Brexiteers attitude to Europeans and the EU.

What a shame you included that last sentence. By suggesting that the problem applies more to Brexiteers you completely contradict your overall message. 

[CG1 Blue]

13 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

As for the backstop, I'm positive that neither the UK, Eire or the EU would  want 'civil war' to beak out in Ireland if a hard border is the only choice. The Good Friday agreement is paramount to peace, and the UK is committed to preserving that. I hope you are, as well.

And this is exactly why there will be no hard border whatever the outcome of Brexit. No matter what some people say, nobody is going to bring about a return to the troubles for the sake of protecting the customs border.

Yes there would be a relatively a porous customs border while technological solutions were developed over the next few years. But that's better than a return to violence, right? Or do you think those in charge would choose a return to the violence? 

[billd766]

25 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

As I said, it's the UK tory government who hopes to leave. As for world markets the UK has enough to last several lifetimes, including goods from the USA and China. It's a red-herring and politically motivated by the hard-line ERG MPs t chaired by Rees-Mogg that the UK would benefit from starting afresh - which means their emerging markets hedge funds would benefit from this scenario.

 

To lose trades  - and begin again - with the largest single market on our doorstop is nonsensical. There is no economic rationale for doing that. 

 

As for the backstop, I'm positive that neither the UK, Eire or the EU would  want 'civil war' to beak out in Ireland if a hard border is the only choice. The Good Friday agreement is paramount to peace, and the UK is committed to preserving that. I hope you are, as well.

 

quote from you.

 

As I said, it's the UK tory government who hopes to leave.

 

The Tory government WILL leave on 31st October, not hopes to leave.

 

If they don't leave then, deal or no deal, then after the next election they will be able to hold a meeting of their MPs in a telephone booth and the Tory party will be decimated at that time.

 

IMHO it will be a choice of the Lib/Dems or the Brexit party as the next party in power.

[petemoss]

31 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

What a shame you included that last sentence. By suggesting that the problem applies more to Brexiteers you completely contradict your overall message. 

It couldn't apply to remainers, they don't vent vitriol at Europeans and the EU.

[petemoss]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I should have made it clearer. In the event of Brexit (deal or no deal), any sane person / government / EU official would choose the latter

I thought that I had made it clear, no deal guarantees a hard border and a possible return of the troubles. No sane person would choose that.

[petemoss]

20 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Yes there would be a relatively a porous customs border while technological solutions were developed over the next few years. But that's better than a return to violence, right? Or do you think those in charge would choose a return to the violence?

Not possible. There is no roadmap for what you suggest. No deal and a hard border has to be imposed.

[petemoss]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

True gone are the days when countries would kowtow to the UK demands, so why should the UK have to kowtow to the EU demands?

It cuts both ways. Why should the EU kowtow to the UK's demands? Trade deals beneficial to the UK with 50% of our export markets? Forget it.