Transferring house title deed via fraud/ courtryside Land office:

[Lightangel000]

Hi everyone!

 

I am desperate:

The house deed number has been hidden for me for 5 years:

Anyone here knows Thai lawyers take a large prepay and then disappear or do nothing.

The Thai girlfriend and the lawyer for my dead father's assets have for 5 years refused to

show the house deed/chanote number for the house dad built and that he was registered as owner of the

house.  I can not afford a lawyer, have phoned around for free legal advice- and the house has a high wall around the

house - so I can not knock on the door, or ask the police to knock on the door of the house.

I visited the local amphur- with a taxi driver but there was nothing registered on the address

my dad lived in for 15 years. I have been told I need the number of the house/land deed to

search at Land office.

 

Myt father died 5 years ago, domiciled in Thailand with a Thai girlfriend/partner.  The GF owns the land,

and she refuses to give a copy of the land deed nr - as that can be used to search at Land office for

the house deed number, as they are related.  I can not afford a suing case in court, privately.

 

Can you help me?

I can not go to the police as I do not have the house deed/land deed number needed in the report!

Many thanksxxxx

LightAngel

[ThomasThBKK]

A litigation lawyer should allow you a free consultation and often they will work for free until the money is recovered and then take a small cut of the money recovered (5-10%). 

 

Would engange an international law firm like baker mckenzie, freshfield etc as thai lawfirms cannot be trusted.

 

No real lawer takes a large prepay, that's all a scam. Lawyers either bill by the hour or take a cut of recovered money.

Edited June 25, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[Lightangel000]

Thanks ThomasBKK - I checked with multiple embassy related lawyers listed - they all only take a large prepay. .I have checked re percentage deals -  they get a percent of  money/assets recovered but nobdy

has offered that. Will check with Bakers - I  think I called them before, they only took more

"corporate" stuff.  I find it hard to belive it can be so easy to conceal to the number of house/land deeds and that the address means nothing when it comes to searching - like my visit at the Amphur -which shoud

have a "copy" of the house deed/land deed nr one lawyer told me.

 

Thanks

Ann -. LightAngel in Sweden

 

[mahjongguy]

"he was registered as owner of the house."

 

Was he? There are very limited ways in which that could true.

[ThomasThBKK]

Why limited, just register a superficies. 

 

30 year superficies can be transferred to your heirs, that might be the reason why they hide the chanote from his daughter, as she is likely to get the house.

[mahjongguy]

I was prompting the OP to be more specific. The land and house, the house only? I said "limited" in the sense that superficies are relatively rare compared to company ownership and to simply putting the chanote in the wife's name.

[blackcab]

You don't need the title deed or the house number or the tabien baan blue book or anything else to search at the Land Office. All you need to know is the location of the house. Go to the Land Office for the district and ask for some help. The Land Office have large format maps for every part of Thailand. Simply tell them the nearest road intersection and they will be able to get the relevant map sheet for you. It will help if you can show them the house on Google maps. All you have to do is count the houses from the road intersection or another known point.

 

It's that simple. Our company does this on a very regular basis and it costs very little money. Once you have located the land plot the survey officer will give you a reference number. Take that number to the research counter, fill in a research form and you can then obtain a photocopy of the title deed and also a printout of the ownership of the plot.

 

There is no need for lawyers. All you need is someone who can speak Thai.

[blackcab]

Moved to the Real Estate Forum.

[Lightangel000]

Addes info fr LIghtAngel

 

- re the house in Ban Dan Kwian - Chock Chai - countryside  - ca 30 min fr Nakhon Ratchasima. It is not  in google maps. The address is just a "Moo  xxnumber, Band Dan Kwian."

 

The house is far out in the countryside with  no real roads, and no road signs. There are ca 15 small houses on the sandy "road" so I have no road sign to refer to if I go to any Land office.

 

Thanks for advice - I called Baker Mackenzie (they just do corporate stuff, and Pregotarius  give no legal

advice over the phone.

 

Thankful for any input.

 

Ann Sweden

 

[Crossy]

That address should be enough to get the land office to locate.

 

You will need a Thai speaker.

 

The chances are high that the GF owns the land and the house anyway, or the significant shares if it's company owned.

 

[transam]

Doesn't the head man have a book with info in it regarding his subjects...

[ThomasThBKK]

1 hour ago, Lightangel000 said:

Addes info fr LIghtAngel

 

- re the house in Ban Dan Kwian - Chock Chai - countryside  - ca 30 min fr Nakhon Ratchasima. It is not  in google maps. The address is just a "Moo  xxnumber, Band Dan Kwian."

 

The house is far out in the countryside with  no real roads, and no road signs. There are ca 15 small houses on the sandy "road" so I have no road sign to refer to if I go to any Land office.

 

Thanks for advice - I called Baker Mackenzie (they just do corporate stuff, and Pregotarius  give no legal

advice over the phone.

 

Thankful for any input.

 

Ann Sweden

 

Lawyers don't give advice over the phone, that's just not a thing. 

 

Write an email with all details. 

[jackdd]

Go on Google maps, turn on the satellite map, and find the location of the house (or go to the house, and get the location from your phone there if you can't find it on a map)

Once you have the location of the house (longitude / latitude), somebody at the local land office should be able to find the title deed for it.

As blackcab said already "There is no need for lawyers. All you need is someone who can speak Thai."

Edited June 25, 2019 by jackdd

[The Fat Controller]

Did your late father leave a will ?

 

If he did that should have specified what would have happened to his Thai assets.

 

If there are personal effects you wish to retrieve, the village head and local police may be able to negotiate with a small consideration.

 

A rural Thai house on somebody else's land is virtually worthless, it may just be easier to walk away and not waste any further time or money on the house issue.

Edited June 26, 2019 by The Fat Controller
Spelling

[Lightangel000]

Hi - again and thanks to everyone´s help and  input:

 

My dad told me the police can be bribed - when he drove too fast. Would it be possible do you think

to ask the police for help - but the problem is they can not pass by and knock on the door due to the

high wall.

It is sad - as when my father died, I have been refused entry since 5 years by the GF, who is

hiding behind the wall around the house,  estimated by an estate agent to be "valuable" - would never bother fighting otherwise.

The Swedish foreign lawyer who with court executor title - which is not valid in Thailand without a Thai  court order, has written in a formal letter to the children that my fathers name is registered on the title deed (for the house).  By concealing the title deed from me, this asset will  never be part of the inheritanece or inventory with Tax gov.

I can not privately pay a heft pre pay of 200 000 baht as multiple lawyers on the  UK embassy webesite want this - and then disappear when the money is payed.  (It happened to me once in Sweden.)

[Lightangel000]

Hi,

 

Re different lawyers saying it is possible to transfer house title deed via any Thai forged will,testamente

at a rural, country side Land Office and a fake power of attorney forged in my name stating I am

giving away my legal inheritance rights as daughter re the house title deed:

 

I am Swedish, and the foreign executor for my dead father is concealing the title housedeed/land deed

from me since 5 years. This valuable house is not noted in the formal inventory with tax gov in

Sweden, and I have been refused to be funded via  the family client account by the foreign lawyer/executor

for dead father to get a Thai court order for who owns the house and transferring bank funds due to

fraud. I do not want to prepay 200 000 baht to all of the lawyers who say they want this for grant of

probate in  Thai court.

 

Out in the countryside - with no buses/trains - can the Land Office:

transfer the title house deed (not the land deed as the girlfriend owns this I assume) via a forged

Thai will to the children to the dead father?  A power of attorney has been drafted for me stating I

accept a proxy agent signing any document in my name (which my brother then forges my name).

I have been told this by a reputable lawyers firm in BKK that the more simple Land offices have no

means of checking Thai wills, if the chldren/heirs appear at Land office asking to transfer the

house title deed,

 

Basically - as Thailand has no formal central property/estate registry via "tax gov" like in Sweden:

it it then possible to transfer the house title deed for the house my father built to the children,

iti they go to the land office with any Thai will, excluding me with a proxy saying I am represented

by a fake proxy agent actinig in my name - who is signing any document in my name.

 

The house is large and valuable and far out in Chock Chai.

 

 

 

[Crossy]

I've merged your two threads keeping the new title.

 

[ThomasThBKK]

21 minutes ago, Lightangel000 said:

Basically - as Thailand has no formal central property/estate registry via "tax gov" like in Sweden:

it it then possible to transfer the house title deed for the house my father built to the children,

iti they go to the land office with any Thai will, excluding me with a proxy saying I am represented

by a fake proxy agent actinig in my name - who is signing any document in my name.

It has something like this.

 

If you have the gps coordinates you can search the title deed here on the map: http://dolwms.dol.go.th/tvwebp/ it doesnt give u the chanote owner but the number

This is the bangkok maintained registry, its not always up2date but there should be an entry for your chanote that shows the nr

 

And yes fraud here is very often the case, did u write an email to the lawyer i recommended?

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[ThomasThBKK]

How close am i to your land? All the red lines are different title deeds, this is Dan Kwian directly.... should not be far away from ur land. 

 

 

 

Besides that, i can confirm that will shit - there's a case currently running on an island we partially life. One of the heirs faked the will, went till the highest court but he lost. went to jail, had to give everything back.. its possible to win these cases, even here.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by ThomasThBKK

[Lightangel000]

I have given the exact address to one of the kind people helping me.  I am in Sweden so I can not directly come over to with a phone GPS the house, the estate agent could not find it on google maps.  Thanks!

 

[blackcab]

You either need to come to Thailand and sort this out yourself or you need to pay a very reputable agent to sort this out for you.

 

Either way it will cost money. You will not be able to solve this by yourself otherwise.

[ThomasThBKK]

7 minutes ago, blackcab said:

You either need to come to Thailand and sort this out yourself or you need to pay a very reputable agent to sort this out for you.

 

Either way it will cost money. You will not be able to solve this by yourself otherwise.

Well if she would know where the house is on the map it's easy to find the chanote number.

 

But i can't find it, tried with google streetview but that village is just too big and the address is one of those generic xxx Moo xxx ones i after years still don't know how to interpret, maybe someone else knows how to find this stuff on google maps?

[blackcab]

You can't find it on Google maps by typing in the address. That won't work.

 

Pretty much the only way is physically going to the village and locating it with local help.

 

Once you have that information then it's a trip to the local Land Office. From Bangkok you're looking at about 3 days work to get on site, find the location, get to the land office, dig up the property details, get copies and get back to Bangkok.

 

If you hire a competent firm who will get the job done then that's going to be expensive.

[ThomasThBKK]

You don't need to go to the land office, you just need to locate it on the map and it shows you the chanote number.

That's all she was asking for - not sure why tho.

 

I think she was there already but didnt note down the gps coordinates and that's the main issue

[JimmyJ]

I only have minimal experience with google maps but I know there's a streetview where one can actually see the houses.

 

OP - Apparently you were there once.

Were there other houses with a very high wall in the neighborhood near the property?

If not, perhaps it can be spotted on google maps if you or someone else can locate the neighborhood?

Edited June 26, 2019 by JimmyJ

[AlexRich]

13 hours ago, The Fat Controller said:

Did your late father leave a will ?

 

If he did that should have specified what would have happened to his Thai assets.

 

If there are personal effects you wish to retrieve, the village head and local police may be able to negotiate with a small consideration.

 

A rural Thai house on somebody else's land is virtually worthless, it may just be easier to walk away and not waste any further time or money on the house issue.

I’m no expert on Thai property matters but was thinking along the same lines as you. Even if the Swedish lady can establish that her father’s Thai property asset is hers to inherit, what is she actually inheriting? The right to stay in the house? It will have no resale value as foreigners cannot legally own land in Thailand, so it cannot be sold. 

 

I wonder if the OP would be better advised to discuss the matter with a Thai law property expert? If the “asset” is essentially worthless she is undertaking a great deal of time, effort and money for no return.

[blackcab]

18 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

It will have no resale value as foreigners cannot legally own land in Thailand, so it cannot be sold. 

 

Foreigners can almost never own land. If you inherit land you have one year to sell the land. Once the land is sold the money from the sale becomes yours.

 

During this period the executor's name can be placed on the title deed showing that the property is awaiting sale or distribution.

[AlexRich]

5 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

Foreigners can almost never own land. If you inherit land you have one year to sell the land. Once the land is sold the money from the sale becomes yours.

 

During this period the executor's name can be placed on the title deed showing that the property is awaiting sale or distribution.

Correct. I think it’s been established that the house has been built on land owned by the father’s Thai girlfriend. 

[blackcab]

@AlexRich Well spotted. There were originally a couple of posts that got merged - I missed that salient point.

 

OP - this is potentially quite a complicated issue which could involve a lease, a usufruct, a superficies or none of the above.

 

The only way of resolving this is by research at the local Land Office.

 

Either you will have to go to the Land Office or you will have to instruct a property professional to handle this for you. You don't really want a lawyer because at this point this is not a legal issue. What you need is someone very experienced in this type of property work.

[The Fat Controller]

Even if you prove the house was left to you, forcing the GF to compensate you is going to be very difficult.

 

Going through the Thai courts will be a slow and expensive process, even finding an expert will be difficult if you are not in Thailand.