Photo of drowned migrants triggers fight over Trump asylum clampdown

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Joinaman said:

Perhaps you could explain why Mexico is not safe, millions of Mexicans live there without too much problem don't they ?

They don't have to stay in the border town do they, that is their choice, there are many many other towns and cities they could live in while waiting for their visa application to be processed But why not live in Mexico, why risk lives, then complain about delays, conditions when trying to enter a country illegally 

Asylum seekers ? How many of these so called asylum seekers seek safety in the nearest safe haven, compared to how many travel through safe countries just to get better benefits, thus no longer asylum seekers, but economic migrants

Perhaps if they make the it much much harder to enter a country without the legal permission, then maybe less will try

 

 

Read links provided, do some research, you find the answers to your questions. To start your journey, a quote from a link I provided in a prior response to you...

 

The asylum officers say Mexico is too dangerous for Central American asylum seekers, particularly women, people who are gay, lesbian or transgender, and indigenous minority groups. They cited State Department reports showing that gang violence and activity is widespread and that crimes are rarely solved.

“Mexico is simply not safe for Central American asylum seekers,” the filing said, noting that gangs that terrorized migrants in their home countries might easily follow them into Mexico. “And despite professing a commitment to protecting the rights of people seeking asylum, the Mexican government has proven unable to provide this protection.”

Edited June 27, 2019 by simple1

[Opl]

5 hours ago, simple1 said:

So far as I know their is no evidence the father was an 'economic refugee', can you demonstrate otherwise? The OP claims he was seeking asylum. It is claimed the father and daughter had reached the US side of the river, the father went back to help his wife, but his daughter jumped back into the river to be with her father; we know the result.  Your unedifying tone is unfortunate.

 

As we know the border situation is complex, as are the circumstances in the source countries. Comments such as your's and no doubt from many others in social media fuel anti asylum seeker attitudes. As yet it is not illegal under US law to claim asylum seeker protection for vetting as a refugee. The problem created by trump is asylum seekers are being turned away at points of entry thereby contributing to the scenario of the OP.

 

"Despite his mother’s pleas, Oscar and his family left El Salvador in April, hoping to find work in the United States and eventually buy a house, Ramirez said. “That was his dream, a good future for his family,” Ramirez said."

Carlos Alberto, Oscar's brother who lives in the United States was about to welcome them.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-mexico-mother/i-told-him-not-to-go-mother-of-drowned-salvadoran-migrant-laments-idUSKCN1TR2PJ

Edited June 27, 2019 by Opl

[JAG]

1 hour ago, Thailand said:

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore

Not if they are brown, and speak Spanish of course...

 

And that, frankly, is what is driving the whole mess. And I say that as someone who is regularly regarded as being "right wing" - I'm not. I'm a natural conservative (note the small 'ç').

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by JAG

[Opl]

6 hours ago, Joinaman said:

so what is the reality of this tragedy ?

Somebody tries to sneak in to a country he has no legal right to enter ? and does so with a young child

Would you all be saying the same things if it was just a male adult ?

Nobody is forcing them to cross, they can apply while in Mexico and wait till approved, or not approved, just like any other honest person does

 

On April 3, they made the decision to leave their country without a visa. According to the authorities, that day, about 200 Salvadorans did as well.
The young family crossed Guatemala to reach the border with Mexico. They then stayed about two months near Tapachula, Chiapas, time to obtain a migratory permit from the Mexican authorities. Tania has been granted a humanitarian visa, allowing her to travel throughout the country. Once these papers in their pocket, the family then decided to travel the 1800 kilometers that still separated them from their destination. They reached Matamoros last Saturday and spent the night in a hotel. In the early morning, they took a taxi to apply for asylum at the Migration Office, located on one of the four points of passage to Brownsville, Texas. According to Enrique Maciel, director of the Tamaulipas State Migration Agency, the family finally decided to cross the river illegally after being informed that she had to be on a waiting list. According to the AP, some 800 names appeared in early May on the same list. "They said they were afraid of Trump's pressure on the situation of migrants. That's why they decided to cross the river.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Opl

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Opl said:

 

"Despite his mother’s pleas, Oscar and his family left El Salvador in April, hoping to find work in the United States and eventually buy a house, Ramirez said. “That was his dream, a good future for his family,” Ramirez said."

Carlos Alberto, Oscar's brother who lives in the United States was about to welcome them.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-mexico-mother/i-told-him-not-to-go-mother-of-drowned-salvadoran-migrant-laments-idUSKCN1TR2PJ

The crime of it.

 

Wanting to get a job, a home, a better life.

 

AKA The American Dream.

 

Good luck building a wall around that.

[Shot]

8 hours ago, stevenl said:

He cut subsidies to solve the problems at the source, and has greatly increased hurdles for legal immigration, thereby making months long waits customary, leading to much more illegal immigration.

This is true. Properly vetting immigrants is imperative to national security and it takes time. If they bring children, it is very important to insure that child belongs to them, not a child to be trafficked into slavery and/or the sex trades.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, manarak said:

could you elaborate more - how would that family's situation have been different under Obama? how would the father and the daughter not have drowned?
do you think they would have been allowed to cross into the USA ?

This is not Obama's 'Watch'.

 

[manarak]

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

This is not Obama's 'Watch'.

 

the easy way out when there are no valid points to be made, but somehow you assigned blame for the deaths.

a French proverb goes "libel, slander at will, something will always end up sticking"

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by manarak

[Trouble]

13 hours ago, attrayant said:

 

Why should it fall upon Mexico to protect the borders of another country?

Maybe what the USA should do is put them on buses and transport them the the Canadian border and let them seek asylum there. By Mexico allowing them passage to the US border they are in effect abetting them entering the US illegally. 

 

[Credo]

12 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

It's an all day everyday occurrence for forever. I ask you again, what's Trump got to do with it? 

It has to do with the fact that they did present themselves at the Border to claim asylum and were sent back to wait.   That wait could be a very long one.   That is a Trump policy.   

 

Watching people crossing the Rio Grande in 1968, you were watching people who had no intention to try to enter the US legal.   You did not see families, you saw mostly single Mexican men looking for work.  

 

[simple1]

11 hours ago, Opl said:

 

"Despite his mother’s pleas, Oscar and his family left El Salvador in April, hoping to find work in the United States and eventually buy a house, Ramirez said. “That was his dream, a good future for his family,” Ramirez said."

Carlos Alberto, Oscar's brother who lives in the United States was about to welcome them.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-mexico-mother/i-told-him-not-to-go-mother-of-drowned-salvadoran-migrant-laments-idUSKCN1TR2PJ

OK, but does it make it a justification to vilify the deceased as some members have done so? IMO - No.

 

Regrettable Central American countries have for been destabilised by outside forces for years, let alone by their own corrupt leadership which leads to this ongoing tragedy for the disenfranchised.

Edited June 27, 2019 by simple1

[Kinnock]

22 hours ago, attrayant said:

 

In other words, make the USA look as terrible as the hell holes the asylum seekers are trying to escape from?

 

Well that policy is starting to work for the UK. 

[pedro01]

21 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The photo strips bare the demonization of immigrants that this President has lead and his base have followed.

 

RIP, a father and his daughter dead seeking the American Dream.

 

Decent Americans will ask what have we become?

 

Actually, they died crossing a river.

 

As for 'what have we become?' - more hyperbole - unless you are suggesting the fault here lies in the fact that neither Democrats nor Republicans have built a bridge across the Rio Grande to prevent similar accidents. 

 

Two people have died in an accident. An accident that no policy of either side would have prevented. Anyone with a basic grasp of cause & effect will understand that the cause of this is the opportunity to stay illegally in America once across the border. That's something that has been available for decades. People die in the attempt, the river crossing is a treacherous one.

[Ozman52]

15 hours ago, simple1 said:

Read links provided, do some research, you find the answers to your questions. To start your journey, a quote from a link I provided in a prior response to you...

 

The asylum officers say Mexico is too dangerous for Central American asylum seekers, particularly women, people who are gay, lesbian or transgender, and indigenous minority groups. They cited State Department reports showing that gang violence and activity is widespread and that crimes are rarely solved.

“Mexico is simply not safe for Central American asylum seekers,” the filing said, noting that gangs that terrorized migrants in their home countries might easily follow them into Mexico. “And despite professing a commitment to protecting the rights of people seeking asylum, the Mexican government has proven unable to provide this protection.”

If Mexico is not safe for central Americans, surely it is not safe for Mexicans.

So what percentage of the population of Mexico should be allowed to enter the USA?Just "women, people who are gay, lesbian or transgender, and indigenous minority groups"?

OTOH, if Mexicans should stay home and sort out their own problems, why doesn't this apply to central Americans?

Edited June 28, 2019 by Ozman52

[Sujo]

I think you will find that most dont WANT to leave their home country.

 

So what has Trump done to fix it. Its got exponentially worse under his watch.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Sujo

[dcutman]

Migrant deaths along the Mexico–U.S. border occur hundreds of times a year because of those attempting to cross into the United States from Mexico illegally.^[1] The US Border Patrol reported 294 migrant deaths in the fiscal year 2017 (ending September 30, 2017), which was lower than in 2016 (322), and any year during the period 2003-2014. Exposure (including heat stroke, dehydration, and hyperthermia) were the leading cause.^[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico–United_States_border

And even lower in 2018 with 260.

 

Where was the outrage during Obama's years? Liberals are a funny bunch of hypocrites. Y'all should be praising Trump for reducing these deaths under his administration.

Edited June 28, 2019 by dcutman

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, dcutman said:

Migrant deaths along the Mexico–U.S. border occur hundreds of times a year because of those attempting to cross into the United States from Mexico illegally.^[1] The US Border Patrol reported 294 migrant deaths in the fiscal year 2017 (ending September 30, 2017), which was lower than in 2016 (322), and any year during the period 2003-2014. Exposure (including heat stroke, dehydration, and hyperthermia) were the leading cause.^[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico–United_States_border

And even lower in 2018 with 260.

 

Where was the outrage during Obama's years? Liberals are a funny bunch of hypocrites. Y'all should be praising Trump for reducing these deaths under his administration.

Praise Trump for increasing illegal immigration he promised to stop.

 

You’re avin a laugh.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, Ozman52 said:

If Mexico is not safe for central Americans, surely it is not safe for Mexicans.

So what percentage of the population of Mexico should be allowed to enter the USA?Just "women, people who are gay, lesbian or transgender, and indigenous minority groups"?

OTOH, if Mexicans should stay home and sort out their own problems, why doesn't this apply to central Americans?

do some reading

[pedro01]

2 hours ago, dcutman said:

Migrant deaths along the Mexico–U.S. border occur hundreds of times a year because of those attempting to cross into the United States from Mexico illegally.^[1] The US Border Patrol reported 294 migrant deaths in the fiscal year 2017 (ending September 30, 2017), which was lower than in 2016 (322), and any year during the period 2003-2014. Exposure (including heat stroke, dehydration, and hyperthermia) were the leading cause.^[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico–United_States_border

And even lower in 2018 with 260.

 

Where was the outrage during Obama's years? Liberals are a funny bunch of hypocrites. Y'all should be praising Trump for reducing these deaths under his administration.

Because the outrage is fake. 

 

It's political point scoring.

 

Look - it's simple cause & effect. The causes of illegal crossings are a weak border, the effect is people, like this Middle Class El Salvadorian, try to cross into the USA.

 

Another cause at the moment is the prospect that the border will strengthen - hence some people are rushing to get into the USA ahead of that.

 

If the border was locked tight & the perception existed that you couldn't get in OR you would not stay long if you did - these illegal crossings would stop.

[Ozman52]

6 hours ago, simple1 said:

do some reading

I've done the reading, that's why I'm asking the difficult questions. Such as (quoting your link) if Mexico is too dangerous for more than half the population (as nominated), and Central america is allegedly more dangerous, just how many people is the US expected to take?

If central American gangs are likely to follow their victims into Mexico, why isn't it just as likely that those gangs and their Mexican counter parts, will follow into the USA?

 

Come on sport, this was your link that we are supposed to take seriously. Where does it stop?

Edited June 28, 2019 by Ozman52

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 6:18 PM, simple1 said:

El Salvador has a known problem with extreme gang violence and poverty. Tell me how a poor person from El Salvador can claim asylum for the US and potentially wait years in Mexico for processing. Assuming you know the definition of a 'safe country' what countries are there bordering El Salvador?

 

Personally I do not define 'seeking a better life' for family as 'greed'. I do agree that the US Southern border is a total mess, the underlying reasons do seem to be under resourcing and funding for processing of asylum seekers over a number of years. Wouldn't help that trump has cut back refugee visas to 30k this year.

Why don't they claim asylum in Mexico, then? Mexico is not at war, asylum seekers are apparently able to travel through the country without harm, it is not a poor country and should be as well able to accommodate genuine refugees as the US. Why do they shun Mexico as a safe country, and seek to enter the US? 

If they can "wait years in Mexico for processing" why not stay there?

[Chomper Higgot]

15 hours ago, pedro01 said:

Because the outrage is fake. 

 

It's political point scoring.

 

Look - it's simple cause & effect. The causes of illegal crossings are a weak border, the effect is people, like this Middle Class El Salvadorian, try to cross into the USA.

 

Another cause at the moment is the prospect that the border will strengthen - hence some people are rushing to get into the USA ahead of that.

 

If the border was locked tight & the perception existed that you couldn't get in OR you would not stay long if you did - these illegal crossings would stop.

Never worked with barb wire, land mines, automatic machine guns, armed guards and attack dogs around the Berlin Wall.

 

But don’t let historical facts get in the way of a good old illiberal rant.

[simple1]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why don't they claim asylum in Mexico, then? Mexico is not at war, asylum seekers are apparently able to travel through the country without harm, it is not a poor country and should be as well able to accommodate genuine refugees as the US. Why do they shun Mexico as a safe country, and seek to enter the US? 

If they can "wait years in Mexico for processing" why not stay there?

The humanitarian visas offered to migrants don’t allow them to work, study, or receive benefits 

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/08/mexico-isnt-helping-central-american-refugees-its-depriving-them-of-their-rights-caravan-1951-refugee-convention-non-refoulement-honduras-central-america-turkey-syria/

[stevenl]

17 hours ago, pedro01 said:

Because the outrage is fake. 

 

It's political point scoring.

 

Look - it's simple cause & effect. The causes of illegal crossings are a weak border, the effect is people, like this Middle Class El Salvadorian, try to cross into the USA.

 

Another cause at the moment is the prospect that the border will strengthen - hence some people are rushing to get into the USA ahead of that.

 

If the border was locked tight & the perception existed that you couldn't get in OR you would not stay long if you did - these illegal crossings would stop.

Agreed, cause and effect.

 

Take away the funding of projects to improve their life where they come from and increase the hurdles for legal immigration and you get more illegals.

 

Which means you have created,/increased a problem but still get to moan about it and demand more money and play to your base.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, simple1 said:

The humanitarian visas offered to migrants don’t allow them to work, study, or receive benefits 

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/08/mexico-isnt-helping-central-american-refugees-its-depriving-them-of-their-rights-caravan-1951-refugee-convention-non-refoulement-honduras-central-america-turkey-syria/

I don't understand why refugees should be allowed to work, or receive benefits- they are not citizens. Far as I understand, all they are entitled to is safety from death in their own country.

Illegal economic migrants of course are not ENTITLED to anything in another country, except a return ticket to their own country.

 

I was not allowed to work or receive benefits in Thailand, but no one is protesting that.

Edited June 29, 2019 by thaibeachlovers

[jany123]

23 hours ago, dcutman said:

Migrant deaths along the Mexico–U.S. border occur hundreds of times a year because of those attempting to cross into the United States from Mexico illegally.^[1] The US Border Patrol reported 294 migrant deaths in the fiscal year 2017 (ending September 30, 2017), which was lower than in 2016 (322), and any year during the period 2003-2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico–United_States_border

And even lower in 2018 with 260.

 

Well.... you know.... mmmm.... maybe not

 

so... let’s look sideways at the issue.... Thai police report about 12000 road deaths annually, but the UN reports about 25000 deaths.... or simply put, about twice as many deaths. We assume, for good reason, that the thai police under report and that the UN give more accurate information.... with me so far?

 

now, assume that the UN comes up with a number of border deaths.... and that the US border patrol comes up with a number of deaths.... which is more believable? The source with no vested interest, or the one with a significant vested interest?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/06/us-mexico-border-migrant-deaths-rose-2017

[jany123]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

I was not allowed to work or receive benefits in Thailand, but no one is protesting that.

No one is protesting that... mmm.... were you in Thailand as a refugee with no means of support? Did Thailand not at least offer to send you home? Nothing at all? What about gofundme? How did you manage to survive the deprivations?

 

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't understand why refugees should be allowed to work, or receive benefits- they are not citizens

meanwhile, one cannot help but note the amount of posts complaining about US citizens having to bear the cost of maintaining the refugees.... surely letting them work would add value...

 

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Illegal economic migrants of course are not ENTITLED to anything in another country, except a return ticket to their own country.

Regardless of how much you keep on keep on keep on repeating the trumps tweets, it will not become a truth. Sorry about that.

[thaibeachlovers]

33 minutes ago, jany123 said:

No one is protesting that... mmm.... were you in Thailand as a refugee with no means of support? Did Thailand not at least offer to send you home? Nothing at all? What about gofundme? How did you manage to survive the deprivations?

 

meanwhile, one cannot help but note the amount of posts complaining about US citizens having to bear the cost of maintaining the refugees.... surely letting them work would add value...

 

Regardless of how much you keep on keep on keep on repeating the trumps tweets, it will not become a truth. Sorry about that.

I was pointing out that it's illogical to allow refugees to work and ban legal visitors in Thailand from doing so. Neither side are citizens.

 

I'm surprised. I understood that as soon as a refugee is determined to be an economic migrant rather than a genuine refugee they are sent home. Am I wrong?

[Ozman52]

31 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was pointing out that it's illogical to allow refugees to work and ban legal visitors in Thailand from doing so. Neither side are citizens.

 

I'm surprised. I understood that as soon as a refugee is determined to be an economic migrant rather than a genuine refugee they are sent home. Am I wrong?

Haven't you read the earlier posts? Jany thinks that just because illegal immigrants don't show up in court they shouldn't be arrested and deported even if that is the court decision, because......well there might be mitigating circumstances, and human rights, and, and .......

The problem is, first you have to find them, because they won't be at the given address. When you do eventually find them, they lodge an appeal, are released until the appeal is heard, and the game starts all over again. When the process finally runs its course, and that will take quite a few years, the last card is played- we've been here for years, part of the community, hard workers (illegally), our kids don't speak (insert language of choice). If at all possible, by then they will have at least one child born in the USA, so opening a whole new can of worms.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Ozman52