Rainy season roofing issues, technical assistance please?

[rockyysdt]

Hi everyone.

 

Hoping to get some advice regarding a friends "rainy season" roof dilemma.

 

She owns a 2 storey residence which isn't coping well with heavy rain.

 

The houses roof is Gable or A Shape with 2 Dormer or A Shape sections coming off centrally from each side.

This results in four gutters.

The roof cladding consists of traditional clay tiles similar to those commonly seen on monasteries.

 

The first problem is that the width of the gutters is very narrow.

Consequently they are incapable of handling heavy down pours.

I've attempted to reduce water overflow by introducing silicone between the edge of the gutters and the tiles.

This was done inside the gables, as the slope and height of the roof is far too dangerous to clamber around without the use of a cherry picker.

 

Internally the timber is holding up well with no signs of rotting, but the wooden cladding on the walls is is deteriorating and two Eaves built to protect the walls have fallen.

The wooden beams which supported the Eaves had rotted.

 

She's been quoted B800,000 to replace the roof.

Don't know if this is over the top.

I wasn't able to measure it but length ways the roof covers 3 average bedrooms and depth wise 1 bedroom and a verandah area at the front.

 

How would you tackle it?

Is B800,000 too much?

 

I was thinking:

Fit roll down awnings to take the effects of rain propelled by side winds.

Replace the fallen Eaves with metal supports coming out from the attic area with lengths of metal supporting some kind of roof cladding.

Treat the eaves to prevent overflow into the roof cavities.

 

Any thoughts or recommendations?

 

She's in the Ta Bo area about 80 kms north east of Udon Thani.

 

Cheers

 

R

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by rockyysdt

[geoffbezoz]

Photos and dimensions of roof may assist in determining the cost. Otherwise how long is a piece of string ? Covering 3 average bedrooms is meaningless.

Edited July 7, 2019 by geoffbezoz

[CharlieH]

Better in DIY Forum

Moved.

 

a picture paints a thousand words, add some if you can.????

[rockyysdt]

12 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Photos and dimensions of roof may assist in determining the cost. Otherwise how long is a piece of string ? Covering 3 average bedrooms is meaningless.

I'll do my best Geoff but I'm not currently in the country.

[geoffbezoz]

2 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

I'll do my best Geoff but I'm not currently in the country.

Best guess of dimensions would do as a guide

[Thongkorn]

i have seen steel roof joists fixed in situate while the wood ones are still in place, would that not reduce the cost of re roofing, also the gutters are under the tiles, rain falls off the roof into the gutters, The gutters dont actual touch the wall,  We have squarish shaped guttering. about 8/10 inches deep, the down pipes are about 6 inches they go directly into a drain ,

[steven100]

As mentioned .... it is near impossible to judge if 800k is too high or is a good price without an onsite visit and inspection by a builder.

A builder whether from Thailand or UK or wherever is not going to be able to ascertain if the price is correct over a website forum. Even with photos he cannot accurately determine what needs replacing and to even estimate the cost using pictures is ridiculous.

 

With something as serious as a new roof a site inspection is crucial.

[rockyysdt]

18 minutes ago, geoffbezoz said:

Best guess of dimensions would do as a guide

Perhaps 16 metres x 6 metre.

 

Doesn't include the 2 fallen eaves which might have been 5 metres by 1.5 metres.

 

Also, I referred to 4 gutters but meant 4 valleys.

 

I'm not looking to replace the roof as I believe it's in good condition.

It's just that it was never flashed correctly, with inadequate valleys (too narrow).

I was thinking, remove the tiles along the valleys and replace the valleys with wider replacements, only I don't know how the traditional clay tiles can be refixed over the valleys.

Edited July 7, 2019 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

13 minutes ago, Thongkorn said:

i have seen steel roof joists fixed in situate while the wood ones are still in place, would that not reduce the cost of re roofing, also the gutters are under the tiles, rain falls off the roof into the gutters, The gutters dont actual touch the wall,  We have squarish shaped guttering. about 8/10 inches deep, the down pipes are about 6 inches they go directly into a drain ,

Hi T.

 

I meant valleys, not gutters.

 

The valleys are too narrow allowing rainwater to flow back under the tiles and the valleys.

[Lacessit]

800,000 baht is way too much. I could build a whole house here for that.

It might sound ridiculous, but have you thought of blanking off the valleys with galvanized steel strips or more tiles to cover the valleys?

Edited July 7, 2019 by Lacessit

[rockyysdt]

41 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

800,000 baht is way too much. I could build a whole house here for that.

It might sound ridiculous, but have you thought of blanking off the valleys with galvanized steel strips or more tiles to cover the valleys?

Thanks L.

 

I had a feeling the quote was excessive and hence my post.

 

Replacement roof was to have modern roofing sheets to replace the tiles.

When a Farang is involved I've heard quotes can be padded.

In any case, as the under structure appears sound my direction is to upgrade the weak points such as the valleys.

 

Your idea to "blank off the valleys with galvanized steel strips or more tiles to cover the valleys".

 

How would you achieve this.

I'm thinking if water swells over the tiles it can work into the spaces around each tile.

How would the blanking strips fit in relation to the tiles and the valleys? 

 

Also, any ideas as to who retails weather awnings?

I'm thinking those heavy duty thick clear synthetic awnings that can roll up with a cord when not in use.

Edited July 7, 2019 by rockyysdt

[eyecatcher]

I did realise you meant valleys and then thought 800k to replace the valleys and reclad the dormer cheeks, someones having a laugh.

 

They are not good at forming valleys here but they need to be at least 9" wide at the bottom of the tray then carry upstands of 4" otherwise yes they will overflow into the house.

 

In the west we use grp preformed trays, and before that lead.

Another problem here is they tend to cut the tiles too far back and then trying to compensate by loading it up with a nice fillet of mortar, useless as first or even last line of defence.

 

Anyway without seeing the problem it sounds like the job you need doing is to reform 4 valleys, using plywood as the backing board and then getting a plastic coated zinc sheet bent to the new profile.

A wider valley means a good tradesman can still reuse the same roof tiles possibly without even cutting them.

When the valley discharges onto the main roof is a critical point for an upstand and cover flashings, against zinc will suffice. Ideally 6" under the tiles, 9" upstand and 3"cover flashing.

Thereafter why not reclad the dormer cheeks with vertical tile hanging so you dont see any of the zinc.

To carry out that work on two dormers shouldnt take longer than 10days....

And I will do it for 500k.

[Farangwithaplan]

3 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi T.

 

I meant valleys, not gutters.

 

The valleys are too narrow allowing rainwater to flow back under the tiles and the valleys.

The roof looks to be about 30 degrees in pitch so the valley will be at about 22 degrees. I'm not sure what material is used for the valley but if it is sheet iron, check it has not perished. Also check how wide it is either side of the valley and whether it has been turned up at the ends.

 

Might be worth getting a local tradesperson to pull a few tiles, get a look at what you are dealing with and have them take detailed photos. This will help you in acquiring 3 or 4 quotes.

 

From what you say you will need to be getting 4 valley gutter runs (a total of about 20m), replace the supporting valley boards under (8 runs so about 40m) and pulling out the rotted strutting members. It is always easier to just replace the older members with like material. You shouldn't need to be replacing the whole roof if the majority is sound. By getting in the ceiling cavity with a torch you will find evidence of water ingress. There will be stains. What is the ceiling structure made from?

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

She's been quoted B800,000 to replace the roof.

As said way too much and not necessary the valley gutters are the only thing to be addressed along with replacement of rot structural areas, get someone who knows what needs to be done instead of what sounds like the rip off merchant that has quoted.

To rectify the situation can be achieved easily and I don't want to be disrespectful but you sound like you haven't got a clue how to fix the roof but you said she is a g/f and if I were you don't pay for it.  

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Thanks L.

 

I had a feeling the quote was excessive and hence my post.

 

Replacement roof was to have modern roofing sheets to replace the tiles.

When a Farang is involved I've heard quotes can be padded.

In any case, as the under structure appears sound my direction is to upgrade the weak points such as the valleys.

 

Your idea to "blank off the valleys with galvanized steel strips or more tiles to cover the valleys".

 

How would you achieve this.

I'm thinking if water swells over the tiles it can work into the spaces around each tile.

How would the blanking strips fit in relation to the tiles and the valleys? 

 

Also, any ideas as to who retails weather awnings?

I'm thinking those heavy duty thick clear synthetic awnings that can roll up with a cord when not in use.

Fixing the strips to cover the valleys so the strips won't move is the main difficulty. Leakage into the valleys underneath should not be a problem, as much less water would be getting there.

Probably Thai Watsadu is the best bet for weather awnings.

[steven100]

If the job is to reform the 4 valley then 800k is way too high.

However, you really need a builder to go and inspect what exactly needs doing and get a quote.

Could be 400-500k ….  it depends on the condition of the timber supports, structure and existing tiles.

[dlclark97]

16 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi T.

 

I meant valleys, not gutters.

 

The valleys are too narrow allowing rainwater to flow back under the tiles and the valleys.

Same problem here but single story.  Valleys are adequate for average rainfall but overflow during a monsoon like down poor.  A professional roofer can easily remove the tiles covering the valleys assuming they are attached in the typical way.  Hopefully the supports already in place to support the valleys have sufficient width and depth between them to support wider and deeper valleys.  And, that should not be so expensive.  But, you mentioned rotted timber.  If it is serious enough you are in for a more expensive fix and would need to be done by a real professional.  Many business, Home Pro, Thai Watsadu and many more may be able to furnish names of professionals that do work under their names.  

[Crocbait]

16 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Hi T.

 

I meant valleys, not gutters.

 

The valleys are too narrow allowing rainwater to flow back under the tiles and the valleys.

I had the same problems with my valleys overflowing inside the roof, I solved the problem by filling in the valleys with a special flexible cement...around 2,000 thb a bag...problem solved.

[Jaxxper]

That is over 20 K sterling..... Seems like a lot to the untrained eye to reroof a house here.

Not sure it would cost that in the western world.

Is your friend a Thai ?

Might also be worth going out for further quotes.

 

 

[Anythingleft?]

I'd be inclined to use a flexible waterproofer to fill the valley and go so far up each tile side to stop the water. You can always paint it whatever colour you want

Replacing the roof would be my last resort and when the whole thing was hooped. Any work done now that just breaks into it could cause a whole chain of unknown tragedies to unfold. Roofing can be fickle

And for 20 grand sterling I would be looking at a whole roof not just repairs.....

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[khunPer]

19 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

She's been quoted B800,000 to replace the roof.

Don't know if this is over the top.

Without a measure is difficult to say if it's too much, and it also depends of materials.

 

I used SCG HomeMart "Roof Expert" for my roof, and their quote was a little bit cheaper then my building constructor could do it. Furthermore SCG use galvanized steel, which both last longer, and has less weight, as it can be little thinner steel structure when galvanized. On top they gave me 5-year warranty, and I presume it's easier to find SCG during the warranty period, than a building constructor; however my roof has lasted without any problems for 9 years so far.

 

SCG's roof expert team make drawings and quotes for free, so it could be worth checking if the have a branch near you. Their work teams are travelling all over. There were 3 people in "our" team. Furthermore they can provide uPVC (vinyl) gutters from their SCG branch "Windsor Vinyl", and install them.

 

Roof quotes are depending of choice of roof tiles, which are both different in look, and in tile locking system (fx. without cement), and optimal water protection. You can have quotes for different types. I chose Neustyle, which however is a top-end tile, but little less work to install, so total price was not that different from a cheaper tile, if the job should be done correctly. And "correctly" was another reason to let an "expert team" do the roof, as there are really a lot to make the right way, to protect from water in Thai weather. My roof is not straight, so also many edges. I also had a heat-insulation-foil under the roof tiles (it really helps for not overheating the attic). 

 

My quotes are 10 years old, but might give an indication:

Roof Neustyle 216m² total materials: 275,410.60 baht

Roof work: 50,231.155 baht

Gutters 88m, down pipes 90m: 88,900 bath

All gutter work by Windsor Vinyl (SGC) team: 35,600 baht

 

In 2009 all together around 450,000 baht for ca. 200m² roof with gutters.

 

I only had battens in galvanized steel (included in the quote), as SCG at that time did not yet supply the heavier steel construction in galvanized, which they do now. The heavy galvanized steel beams are bolted together, not welded. The SCG galvanized battens were (a lot) cheaper than quoted in normal steel.

 

My basic steel structure, including rust protection, was 396,000 baht.

By using SCG for roof entreprise I saved little more than 200,000 baht from the building constructor's quote. I had two building construction quotes, pretty similar in total cost, but differences in specifications; however steel and roof were almost the same.

 

SCG roof work in progress.

 

 

[rockyysdt]

16 hours ago, Farangwithaplan said:

getting in the ceiling cavity with a torch you will find evidence of water ingress. There will be stains. What is the ceiling structure made from?

Thanks to all for the great advise and support.

 

I'm definitely not a roofer but dabble in handyman work.

 

The biggest challenge of this roof is that it's on top of a 2 storey structure.

Very scary and to me inaccessible without the risk of sliding off.

Poor accessibility would factor in any cost.

The B800,000 verbal quote was to completely replace the roof.

 

The roof cavity is like a third floor.

You can walk inside this area which features 4 windows, one at each end east and west and one at the end of each dormer.

To me, a pretentious design giving a fancy look, but no one in the attic to take advantage of the view.

The valleys are of metal construction with zero upturned edges and, from memory, about 15 cms each side with the tiles overlapping about half of that.

The tiles overlap the valleys with spaces only due to tiles overlapping each other.

I've added silicone as best I could in these between the valley and the tiles, from the the inside, but can't access all of the cavities lower down due to beams and wooden structures.

 

Unfortunately I haven't been able to get up there during a downpour to see where the water is entering.

But inspecting the wooden structures supporting the tiles, I can't see any rot, except the beams which used to come out each side (east and west of the gable) which supported eaves giving some protection to the sides of the house.

These have fallen.

 

The storms have been pretty severe with heavy side winds, forcing rain against the sides of the house.

My belief is that it's a combination of poorly constructed valleys, and a lack of side protection made worse with the fallen eaves.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

24 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Without a measure is difficult to say if it's too much, and it also depends of materials.

 

I used SCG HomeMart "Roof Expert" for my roof, and their quote was a little bit cheaper then my building constructor could do it. Furthermore SCG use galvanized steel, which both last longer, and has less weight, as it can be little thinner steel structure when galvanized. On top they gave me 5-year warranty, and I presume it's easier to find SCG during the warranty period, than a building constructor; however my roof has lasted without any problems for 9 years so far.

 

SCG's roof expert team make drawings and quotes for free, so it could be worth checking if the have a branch near you. Their work teams are travelling all over. There were 3 people in "our" team. Furthermore they can provide uPVC (vinyl) gutters from their SCG branch "Windsor Vinyl", and install them.

 

Roof quotes are depending of choice of roof tiles, which are both different in look, and in tile locking system (fx. without cement), and optimal water protection. You can have quotes for different types. I chose Neustyle, which however is a top-end tile, but little less work to install, so total price was not that different from a cheaper tile, if the job should be done correctly. And "correctly" was another reason to let an "expert team" do the roof, as there are really a lot to make the right way, to protect from water in Thai weather. My roof is not straight, so also many edges. I also had a heat-insulation-foil under the roof tiles (it really helps for not overheating the attic). 

 

My quotes are 10 years old, but might give an indication:

Roof Neustyle 216m² total materials: 275,410.60 baht

Roof work: 50,231.155 baht

Gutters 88m, down pipes 90m: 88,900 bath

All gutter work by Windsor Vinyl (SGC) team: 35,600 baht

 

In 2009 all together around 450,000 baht for ca. 200m² roof with gutters.

 

I only had battens in galvanized steel (included in the quote), as SCG at that time did not yet supply the heavier steel construction in galvanized, which they do now. The heavy galvanized steel beams are bolted together, not welded. The SCG galvanized battens were (a lot) cheaper than quoted in normal steel.

 

My basic steel structure, including rust protection, was 396,000 baht.

By using SCG for roof entreprise I saved little more than 200,000 baht from the building constructor's quote. I had two building construction quotes, pretty similar in total cost, but differences in specifications; however steel and roof were almost the same.

 

 

SCG roof work in progress.

 

 

Thanks Khun Per.

 

The current roof is fitted with classic traditional clay tiles as fitted to traditional buildings such as monasteries.

 

Your roof definitely looks the part.

I'm trying to help save this home from water damage but as economically as possible.

Are concrete roof tiles a better option than corrugated metal such as colorbond or synthetic panels for price and installation complexity?

 

Do SCG only do concrete tiles?

 

thanks

 

R

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by rockyysdt

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Thanks Khun Per.

 

The current roof is fitted with classic traditional clay tiles as fitted to traditional buildings such as monasteries.

 

Your roof definitely looks the part.

I'm trying to help save this home from water damage but as economically as possible.

Are concrete roof tiles a better option than corrugated metal such as colorbond or synthetic panels for price and installation complexity?

 

Do SCG only do concrete tiles?

 

thanks

 

R

I cannot answer about SCG's product range, but SCG has a roof expert home page (in Thai).

 

Originally I was interested in a roof like the traditional Thai style in the back of the photo, a kind of asphalt roofing that goes on top of plates (often plywood), but I'm happe i chose cement tiles instead, as I later realized the other choice don't lasts. The plywood is target for rot (or termites), however fiberboard (cement) plates could probably be used instead. Tiles seems to be the better choice.

 

The major difference between for example Neustrile tiles that I have, and traditional looking tiles, is the lack of cement, which can crack. I believe the little higher price is worth the safety, and probably less maintenance costs, when looked over long time.

 

My next door neighbor build a hing-end (expensive) luxury house, but with roof plates – which could be like the ones you mentioned, "corrugated metal such as colorbond or synthetic panels" – due to fancy architect design. First monsoon and they got huge leaking problems; water everywhere. Their (farang) building constructor arrived with truckload silicone to fix it. I'm not sure, if I would be happy living under a "silicone" roof, but perhaps it's Okay...????

 

As what you mention in another post that "storms have been pretty severe with heavy side winds, forcing rain against the sides of the house" is also what I have noticed. The Neustyle has good protection at edges and corners, but also gables are important to protect right.

 

I had water coming in one place in my house, between the ground floor and first floor – so not from roof leaking over 2nd floor – but during heavy rain I needed buckets to tap water in streams flowing from the gypsum ceiling. Found it – it was heavy side-wind rain rinse down the outer wall over an outdoor lamp, getting behind the lamp, and into the electric pipe that unfortunately sloped little downwards to an assembly junction, where the water got out and ran down on the gypsum ceiling. I could block the pipe with silicone. Pipes with electric wires from an outdoor lamp should go slightly upwards to stop water from coming in, but due to lamp position and beam structure, it might not have been possible here. Anyway problem got solved, but it shows, that water leaking can be caused by other means than roof tiles.

 

So as you say, get up there – on your friend's attic – when it's raining, might help a lot to find the cause of leaking(s).

????

[The Theory]

You need to seal the tiles on the valley section, at least 50cm each side by some sort of spray asphalt (hot spray would be better). It could be costly, but definitely nothing close to 800,000. 

The spray work has to be done by someone who knows what he is doing, otherwise it won’t work perfectly. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by The Theory

[rockyysdt]

18 hours ago, The Theory said:

You need to seal the tiles on the valley section, at least 50cm each side by some sort of spray asphalt (hot spray would be better). It could be costly, but definitely nothing close to 800,000. 

The spray work has to be done by someone who knows what he is doing, otherwise it won’t work perfectly. 

Thanks Theory.

 

Is the asphalt sprayed over the tiles and the valley to form a skin?

Is there a risk of asphalt being prone to melting in hot climates and cause fractures in its skin?

Would the asphalt affect aesthetics (look) of the tiles and roof line?

 

Do you have any contacts for such work in northern Thailand?

 

Thanks

 

R

 

[rockyysdt]

On 7/8/2019 at 12:38 PM, Crocbait said:

I had the same problems with my valleys overflowing inside the roof, I solved the problem by filling in the valleys with a special flexible cement...around 2,000 thb a bag...problem solved.

Thanks Croc

 

The biggest issues of executing this solution are:

 

• 2.5 storey high with sloping roof, very dangerous place to be.
• The tiles are small so there'll be water overflow to neighboring tiles during downpours.

[The Theory]

3 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Do you have any contacts for such work in northern Thailand?

I do not know where it could be available in the North or even in the South. 

But you ca use 2 different products that are available in HomePro or other construction supplies. 

 

 

I have used this (HomePro got even better than this brand in their inventory) on different places to seal surfaces surfaces and cracks, but you need to wash(pressure wash if available) and clean the roof tiles joints from dust and dirt. Then apply by a painting brush richly to fill between tiles. It works well and very low cost. The only down part is the color difference (white). Apply it just like a straight strip only on the valley tiles about 1 foot on each side. You could  draw lines before applying to make a nice and clean strip all the way up to down. 

 

[Joe Mcseismic]

Have insulation foam sprayed on to the inside of the roof.

I had mine done earlier this year. Stops all leaks as it is applied to two inches thick. 640 Bt per sq. mtr.

[CGW]

7 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Have insulation foam sprayed on to the inside of the roof.

I was thinking that, may be a cheap solution and no need to chance life and limb on the roof.