Where do I find the right Gasoline for my Moped?

[Isaanbiker]

4 hours ago, Vacuum said:

The reason for this could be that it was old. As it's more expensive than the 91 gasohol = few people bought it, and it got old. Hence it runs better with 91 gasohol which 99% of the population buys, and gets replenished more often.

IMO there's no way 95 benzine would make your bike perform worse than 91 gasohol.

Thanks for your post. As far as I remember did I switch to NGK Iridium after my bad experience with the 95 and yes, I understand, it makes sense that basically nobody's buying 95 and it must have been old.

 

  I've just changed my oil, hit the road and the bike's running great on 91. It's been like that since August/ September and I appreciate that my bike's running well on 91.

 

  Keep them wheels rollin'..........

 

 

[BritManToo]

22 hours ago, Isaanbiker said:

It's a 1100cc Virago with two carbs and a TPS Throttle Position Sensor, only a few bikes were made with one) I wrote that it was bought from a shop ( Red Baron) in Bangkok 16 years ago, not that it ran in Bangkok. 

I had the Bulldog version of this bike in the Uk.

Frighteningly fast.

[Isaanbiker]

12 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I had the Bulldog version of this bike in the Uk.

Frighteningly fast.

It's really fast and an edition of only 2,500 that were built.

The gear box is differently stuffed, so less RPM's when accelerating than other Viragos. 

 

   165 km/h was all I could do until now, it's just too dangerous to ride faster. Not on Isaan roads with all the crap driving around. Yamaha talks about 190 km/h top speed, but 180 km/h suits me well. 

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Isaanbiker said:

It's really fast and an edition of only 2,500 that were built.

The gear box is differently stuffed, so less RPM's when accelerating than other Viragos. 

 

   165 km/h was all I could do until now, it's just too dangerous to ride faster. Not on Isaan roads with all the crap driving around. Yamaha talks about 190 km/h top speed, but 180 km/h suits me well. 

Don't think I ever got mine to 100mph in the UK.

It was my divorce death wish purchase, but the death wish wasn't that strong.

[georgy]

On 7/17/2019 at 8:20 PM, Isaanbiker said:

I'm not planning to buy new valves, seats etc and spend a lot of money on it. I've got only 19,600 km's on the clock.

 

  But thanks for your input. 

I have strong doubts that an 1996 engine was designed for run any Ethanol. You might find related info on the Yamaha website.

It took me a while to find such info for my 2001 bike, now I am sure i can use Gasohol.

From that point of view stay safe and run it with pure Benzin. Ethanol may damage your rubber/plastic sealings.

No engine minds higher octane, only too low octane for long time could create troubles.

 

Assuming you did all 19,600km in 14 years, it means you do max 1,400km a year, 120km a  month. Most probably less.

Furthermore assuming an average consumption of 6l/100km:

=> 84l/year => additional cost for use of 95 instead E95 approx 650THB per year , 55THB or 2l E10 a month !

So what?

 

In my humble opinion the mentioned not-well-running in the city comes more from partial use of gasohol and simply not running enough km to keep tank, carburator and seals clean from influence of Ethanol.

 

Ride safe mate!

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by georgy
typing errors corrected

[papa al]

On 7/17/2019 at 7:40 AM, CGW said:

Your pretty well screwed if it wont run on 95 octane "Benzine" (no idea why they call it "Benzine" it's got maybe 0.5% Benzine in it?) everything else on the market is some type of gasohol. May be worth trying a "hotter" spark plug with the 95?

...named after Mr. Benz, early auto manufacturer.

[He had a daughter named Mercedes.]

benzine ≠ benzene.

[thaiguzzi]

13 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I had the Bulldog version of this bike in the Uk.

Frighteningly fast.

 

12 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Don't think I ever got mine to 100mph in the UK.

[eisfeld]

On 7/17/2019 at 4:48 PM, Kwasaki said:

Sounds to me you're looking for trouble ???? if it runs well on E91 then it's carbs and timing have been tuned to it, E95 shouldn't be a problem either.

 

23 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

I will add that my bikes happily run on E95, the Guzzi will run on E91 at a push

I know you guys know this but for others:

 

There is no E91 and at least currently in Thailand no E95. The E prefix is used to specify the ethanol percentage in the fuel. So E91 theoretically would be 91% ethanol.

 

All gasohol - both 91 and 95 octane - in Thailand is E10 so 10% ethanol.

 

Benzine has 0% ethanol and in Thailand comes with 95 octane rating.

 

IMHO it's better to say "gasohol 91", "gasohol 95" or "benzine" for the common motocy fuels.

[CGW]

1 hour ago, papa al said:

...named after Mr. Benz, early auto manufacturer.

[He had a daughter named Mercedes.]

benzine ≠ benzene.

You either have a wicked sense of humour or a fascinating insight into history, certainly makes my "Benzine" boring ???? 

 

[Formaleins]

On 7/17/2019 at 8:19 PM, KhunBENQ said:

Of course the Benzene is also 95 octane.

But it would surprise me if your bike has a problem with higher octane. Usually it's the other way round.

Exactly, something is wrong with his bike. Going to lower octane will cause the problem of pinking, going higher octane is just wasting money but will not cause engine problems. There used to be a 91 Benzine, red pump but you do not see many these days. Maybe his bike needs Leaded gas? But that would make it a dinosaur.

[Isaanbiker]

2 hours ago, papa al said:

...named after Mr. Benz, early auto manufacturer.

[He had a daughter named Mercedes.]

benzine ≠ benzene.

I'd never thought about that. After some Googling, it seems that you're right:

 

  “Benzin”, the German word for gasoline/petrol is actually named after Karl Benz, the inventor of the first motor car, who built one it 1885 and patented it in 1886 as an "automobile fueled by Gas". “Benzin”, the fuel his car actually ran on is consequently named after him. Other Germanic languages and Polish also use similar names for it.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-the-benzine-used-here-in-Europe-and-the-gasoline-used-in-the-USA

 

[eisfeld]

4 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

the problem of pinking

All kinds of weird thoughts come to mind ????

[Isaanbiker]

7 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

Exactly, something is wrong with his bike. Going to lower octane will cause the problem of pinking, going higher octane is just wasting money but will not cause engine problems. There used to be a 91 Benzine, red pump but you do not see many these days. Maybe his bike needs Leaded gas? But that would make it a dinosaur.

Regarding Yamaha, 87 octane is okay for this bike. 91 octane with 10 % ethanol seems to be okay. 

 

   Thanks for your post. 

[KhunBENQ]

2 hours ago, papa al said:

...named after Mr. Benz, early auto manufacturer.

[He had a daughter named Mercedes.]

benzine ≠ benzene.

I thought whether I should bring this up and decided against

 

Gasoline, petrol, gas. Pick what you like best.

PTT uses gasoline on their website while the Thai script for this fuel corresponds to "benzene".

[Isaanbiker]

1 hour ago, CGW said:

You either have a wicked sense of humour or a fascinating insight into history, certainly makes my "Benzine" boring ???? 

 

Even when it sounds weird, he's right. It was named after Mr. Karl Benz, daddy of Mercedes. Mercedes with her daddy Karl:

 

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-the-benzine-used-here-in-Europe-and-the-gasoline-used-in-the-USA

[eisfeld]

33 minutes ago, Isaanbiker said:

Regarding Yamaha, 87 octane is okay for this bike. 91 octane with 10 % ethanol seems to be okay.

Since you mentioned several times 87 octane it got me thinking. I haven't seen 87 octane RON so far but in the US and a few other places they have 87 octane AKI. Two different systems for measuring octane. Now the bike is from Japan which uses RON. Do you have the original owners manual for this bike or did you maybe download one from the web which could be for a US model? Just curious.

[CGW]

58 minutes ago, Isaanbiker said:

I'd never thought about that. After some Googling, it seems that you're right:

I never knew that either! why the Thai's call 95 "Benzine" which basically is a German slang term, doubt we will ever know the answer. ???? 

[eisfeld]

5 minutes ago, CGW said:

I never knew that either! why the Thai's call 95 "Benzine" which basically is a German slang term, doubt we will ever know the answer. ???? 

Being German I can tell it's not really slang but the normal term for petrol (Benzin, without e). The slang term would be "Sprit".

[eisfeld]

3 hours ago, papa al said:

...named after Mr. Benz, early auto manufacturer.

[He had a daughter named Mercedes.]

benzine ≠ benzene.

I also always believed this is where the term came from but according to the german Wikipedia this is a myth. The origin goes back to the arab word for resin benjamin, "luban dschawi". It came through trade to Europe, the first syllable was dropped, the a became an e and ended up as "benjui", middlelatin "benzoë" and eventually in German "Benzol". Faraday in 1825 found the chemical compound in emptied gas bottles and called it "bicarbure d’hydrogène". German chemist Eilhard Mitscherlich then renamed it "Benzin" which today is "Benzol". Another chemists Justus von Liebig a bit later then assigned the name "Benzin" to the fuel we are talking about. [1]

 

Carl Benz also had no daughter named Mercedes. His 5 kids were named Eugen, Richard, Clara, Thilde and Ellen. The name Mercedes comes from the daughter of an austrian diplomat and racing entrepeneur Emil Jellinek. [2]

 

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorenbenzin (german)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz#History

[CGW]

9 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Another chemists Justus von Liebig a bit later then assigned the name "Benzin" to the fuel we are talking about. [1]

Interesting, what adds confusion is that "some" petroleum has ~ 0.5% Benzine, then one has to wonder why only the 95 is called Benzine here in Thailand - maybe the Benzine increases the octane rating to 95?

[eisfeld]

7 minutes ago, CGW said:

Interesting, what adds confusion is that "some" petroleum has ~ 0.5% Benzine, then one has to wonder why only the 95 is called Benzine here in Thailand - maybe the Benzine increases the octane rating to 95?

The 0.5% you mention probably is Benzene (german "Benzol"), not Benzine (papa got that one right). European Norm 228 says Benzine can contain up to 1% Benzene.

 

Benzine is called that way in Thailand maybe because that's close to the original name of what this is. Gasoline would be also a weird name as it's not a gas. That term also has an interesting history involving a guy in Dublin not wanting to comply with a trademark complaint for Cazeline so he changed the C to a G making it Gazeline... ???? [1]

 

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Etymology

[Isaanbiker]

7 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Since you mentioned several times 87 octane it got me thinking. I haven't seen 87 octane RON so far but in the US and a few other places they have 87 octane AKI. Two different systems for measuring octane. Now the bike is from Japan which uses RON. Do you have the original owners manual for this bike or did you maybe download one from the web which could be for a US model? Just curious.

I've bought the bike last August and I've got almost all owner's manuals for different 1100 cc Viragos. Unfortunately, not for the one that was an import from Japan, all I could find out was that it "came to Thailand in parts". 

 

  But considering that mine's one of the 2,500 bikes with the frame and engine number 4 PP- + five digits where not as much information is available, I'd have thought that the fuel Yamaha recommends must be the same for all 1100 cc engines.

 

  Here's a part of a owner's manual for the 1100 cc:

 

Your Yamaha engine  has been designed to use   regular   unleaded   gasoline  with   a pump  octane  number  ([R+M]/2)  of 86 or higher, or research octane number of 91 or higher. If knocking  or pinging  occurs, use a different brand of gasoline or premium un• leaded  fuel.  Unleaded  fuel  will   give  you longer spark plug life and reduced  mainte• nance cost. If unleaded gasoline is not available, then leaded regular gasoline can be used.

 

 

Gasohol

There are two  types  of gasohol;  gasohol containing ethanol and that containing methanol. Gasohol containing ethanol can be used if ethanol content does not exceed

10%.  Gasohol  containing  methanol is  not

recommended by Yamaha  because  it can cause fuel system damage  or vehicle performance problems.

 

How would I find out if certain gasoline, or gasohol contains methanol?

 

  

 

 

   

[Isaanbiker]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

Being German I can tell it's not really slang but the normal term for petrol (Benzin, without e). The slang term would be "Sprit".

Danke schoen. 

[Isaanbiker]

14 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

The 0.5% you mention probably is Benzene (german "Benzol"), not Benzine (papa got that one right). European Norm 228 says Benzine can contain up to 1% Benzene.

 

Benzine is called that way in Thailand maybe because that's close to the original name of what this is. Gasoline would be also a weird name as it's not a gas. That term also has an interesting history involving a guy in Dublin not wanting to comply with a trademark complaint for Cazeline so he changed the C to a G making it Gazeline... ???? [1]

 

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Etymology

Yep, the amazing English language does the rest! Americans call it gasoline, or gas, Brits call it petrol, Germans call it Benzin. And we all need it somehow. 

 

 Thais use a few words that originate from Germish, for example the word technologie, or technology in English.

 

Anyway, when you ask a guy at a Thai gas station how much ethanol their gasoline, or petrol contains, you could also ask them a few questions about the universe.....with the same result. Of course would nobody say that they don't know it. 

 

  I tend to believe that I just had old Benzine 95, as not too many people are buying that stuff. Thanks a lot for the answers. Khop Khun La lai. 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

  

[eisfeld]

10 minutes ago, Isaanbiker said:

Your Yamaha engine  has been designed to use   regular   unleaded   gasoline  with   a pump  octane  number  ([R+M]/2)  of 86 or higher, or research octane number of 91 or higher. If knocking  or pinging  occurs, use a different brand of gasoline or premium un• leaded  fuel.  Unleaded  fuel  will   give  you longer spark plug life and reduced  mainte• nance cost. If unleaded gasoline is not available, then leaded regular gasoline can be used.

 

 

Gasohol

There are two  types  of gasohol;  gasohol containing ethanol and that containing methanol. Gasohol containing ethanol can be used if ethanol content does not exceed

10%.  Gasohol  containing  methanol is  not

recommended by Yamaha  because  it can cause fuel system damage  or vehicle performance problems.

 

How would I find out if certain gasoline, or gasohol contains methanol?

 

The (R+M)/2 is the AKI octane rating, and as you can see it says "research octane number of 91", that is RON which is what you get in Thailand. It also says 10% ethanol is OK so all together your bike should be fine with Gasohol 91 and 95 as well as Benzine 95. If your bike has issues with Benzine then that hints at some problem because that fuel is less likely to cause premature ignition. Now since Gasohol 91 is within the manufacturer specs, you could just use that and ignore the Benzine issue or try to find out why that happens. I wouldn't have a clue as to why.

 

I am confident that Thailand uses ethanol not methanol, here is a PTT page for example mentioning ethanol http://www.pttplc.com/en/Products-Services/Consumer/for-Vehicle/PTT-Blue-Innovation/pages/PTT-Blue-Innovation.aspx

[CGW]

^ Agree, looks like Thai use ethanol.

 

[Kwasaki]

5 hours ago, eisfeld said:

 

I know you guys know this but for others:

 

There is no E91 and at least currently in Thailand no E95. The E prefix is used to specify the ethanol percentage in the fuel. So E91 theoretically would be 91% ethanol.

 

All gasohol - both 91 and 95 octane - in Thailand is E10 so 10% ethanol.

 

Benzine has 0% ethanol and in Thailand comes with 95 octane rating.

 

IMHO it's better to say "gasohol 91", "gasohol 95" or "benzine" for the common motocy fuels.

Well for you I think E91, 95 same same just a short way no sweat.

E20 is even higher octane. ????

 

[ktm jeff]

Kwasaki , I believe E20 has 95 RON octane rating , same same as E10 95 , just with 20% Ethanol. E85 may (?) have a higher RON rating , but can only be used in "Dual fuel" vehicles. There are RON , MON and AKI ratings. Thailand uses RON and Ethanol.   The OP,s bike , if used regular , will be fine with E10 91 or E10 95.  If there is a Shell garage nearby , i would use Shell V-power , which is said to maybe contain just 7 % Ethanol , and is RON rated at 95 octane.  Thank you (danke) eisfeld for the information. Every day is a school day. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by ktm jeff
Thanks

[mr PPG]

On 7/17/2019 at 2:40 PM, CGW said:

Your pretty well screwed if it wont run on 95 octane "Benzine" (no idea why they call it "Benzine" it's got maybe 0.5% Benzine in it?) everything else on the market is some type of gasohol. May be worth trying a "hotter" spark plug with the 95?

ptt benzene give me significant more mpg vs any type of gasohol mix, but end of the day i still have same miles for money (pcx 150).... advantage to put “pure” benzene is: les often need visit to pump and it’s better for engine components.... 

[xtrnuno41]

Replacing or adjusting (sometimes you have adjustable nozzles) carburetor nozzles wouldnt help? For 87 octane (normal) you have probably bigger nozzles, but if you go up in octane you would need smaller ones, as there is more octane in it.

You ever tried the E85 then?