Thai tourism in trouble: And competitor Vietnam is "scary" for Pattaya

[hansnl]

21 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

Prayuths' wish to eradicate prostitution (2015)n as a main source of Falang tourists seems to be taking affect....

The Thai government is now expediating the original wish......falang out!

May I please thrown in that the rot started to get in around 2005/2006?

May I please remind you that TS hates farang?

[Mattd]

15 hours ago, Percy P said:

Thai goods are very cheap but not against your own Countries currency. So that the problem.

I earn THB and do not find Thai goods cheap at all anymore, for example, I've just arrived back to Thailand from a holiday in the UK visiting family, there are a lot of things in the UK that are now cheaper than Thailand and I am comparing apples to apples. Plus a lot of what you buying is of a far better quality.

Another example, is the cost of fuel, which has risen faster here than in say the UK (where most of it is tax), years ago fuel was around 35% of the UK price, now it is closer to 65% of the UK price, theoretically that margin should not change, although that doesn't directly effect tourism, it does factor in, due to increased transportation costs.

The OP is that Thai Tourism is in trouble, now whether that is true or not, I don't know long term, short term it is definitely so, exchange rates DO have a bearing for genuine tourists, they earn in a foreign currency, which they exchange to THB and right now that money is not going as far as it used to and that is not only due to weak currencies, the THB is over valued right now, coupled with higher base prices here.

Ask a Thai if they find the cost of living cheap now.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Psychic said:

Chinese tourism started to accelerate with a weak baht.

It continued as the baht strengthened.

I think the opposite is starting to occur. 

i think that there is more to it than that. I went to China in 2013 and China was significantly cheaper than Thailand so travelling to a more expensive country had little to do with the baht, more to do with being targeted by TAT. I have recently been to China and it is still cheaper, the price differential being roughly the same as it was in 2013.

There is a large number of Chinese descendants in Thailand so there will always be significant numbers coming to Thailand. I suspect that with regard to the straightforward tourist that they have done it, but not again, and have spread the word that Thailand is not as good as was made out and are now turning to other destinations.

[sandyf]

14 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Another example, is the cost of fuel, which has risen faster here than in say the UK (where most of it is tax), years ago fuel was around 35% of the UK price, now it is closer to 65% of the UK price, theoretically that margin should not change, although that doesn't directly effect tourism, it does factor in, due to increased transportation costs.

 

Ask a Thai if they find the cost of living cheap now.

Not a good example. I can remember coming down from Korat in 2003 and paid for my friend to fill the tank up. The fuel was 14 baht a litre, with the exchange rate around 70 that would be about 20p a litre. Thai fuel prices have effectively doubled in the last 15 years or so, a relatively low rate of inflation. Hotel prices on the other hand have probably gone up 4/5 times but I can still get very large Kapow down the road for 40 baht and wash it down with a large Chang for 55 baht. It is all about perspective.

 

Asking a Thai is quite meaningless, the answer will depend on personal circumstances and vary quite significantly.

I go back to the UK every year and would dispute any claim that it is cheaper there. Last May I was up in the north of Scotland and the cheapest B&Bs were charging over £80 a night, a couple of weeks later I stayed in the Dusit Pattaya for about £85 a night. There is no dispute that things can be cheaper in the UK but not generally.

 

The perception of Thailand becoming expensive is felt more by people like myself on a fixed income being hit by a declining exchange rate and inflation, rather than just inflation alone. The same goes for the Thais, those on a fixed income will feel the effect of inflation more so than those on a reasonable salary with counter inflationary increases.

[Opl]

15 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

It started a couple of years ago with men from India involved in fake marriages to Thai women and from there Thailand began to see a rising amount of middle class people from India and China taking advantage of marriage and retirement visas.  Both of those countries have the population to completely change Thailand.  And has been said many times on this thread and others like it Europeans don't like to vacation in the same place as Chinese and people from India. 

Thailand is the victim of its success. It used to be " Amazing Thailand" not so much now, for me, since the destination has been promoted as a budget luxury for lower middle class consumers (not travelers, not even tourists) from all over the world. Why make the trip if you end up finally vacationing surrounded by people you avoid at home? I'm not refering to ethnicities, it's about the mindset.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Opl

[Mattd]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Not a good example. I can remember coming down from Korat in 2003 and paid for my friend to fill the tank up. The fuel was 14 baht a litre, with the exchange rate around 70 that would be about 20p a litre. Thai fuel prices have effectively doubled in the last 15 years or so, a relatively low rate of inflation. Hotel prices on the other hand have probably gone up 4/5 times but I can still get very large Kapow down the road for 40 baht and wash it down with a large Chang for 55 baht. It is all about perspective.

 

Asking a Thai is quite meaningless, the answer will depend on personal circumstances and vary quite significantly.

I go back to the UK every year and would dispute any claim that it is cheaper there. Last May I was up in the north of Scotland and the cheapest B&Bs were charging over £80 a night, a couple of weeks later I stayed in the Dusit Pattaya for about £85 a night. There is no dispute that things can be cheaper in the UK but not generally.

 

The perception of Thailand becoming expensive is felt more by people like myself on a fixed income being hit by a declining exchange rate and inflation, rather than just inflation alone. The same goes for the Thais, those on a fixed income will feel the effect of inflation more so than those on a reasonable salary with counter inflationary increases.

It is a perfectly good example for the quote I made it against, which implied that Thailand is still cheap and those that think it isn't, it is only because the state of their currency.

When I was stating the fuel prices it was when the exchange rate to the GBP was comparable to now at around 39 THB to 1 GBP before 1997.

I will repeat, for those that think Thailand hasn't increased in price, ask a Thai, it is not just the exchange rate. I know and work with Thais that earn from low to high, they all complain.

I agree the UK is more expensive for accommodation, take that out and a lot of things are generally cheaper, food is, beer is (and better), hire cars etc. etc.

I am not saying it is cheaper to live in the UK, as that is not the subject of the OP, what I am saying that in relationship to the OP is tourism will be down when you have a strong Thai Baht and a higher cost of living, which in turn brings less value for money than it ever has, there are many alternatives.

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, Mark Evans said:

VN has a communist government but they are much more competent and competitive in managing the economy and attracting FDI.

Lure them in and do what commies do, move it all to the party. Only an idiot would pump $ into a country where the basic ideology is state owns it all.

 

The free trade agreement EU made is a good example. They insisted on having a shadow court for disputes, overriding the commies. Well, as soon as the reds get fed of it, it's bolshevik time. Didn't the west learn anything from the Viet war?

Edited July 24, 2019 by DrTuner

[DrTuner]

10 hours ago, darrenr said:

Do thais originally come from southern China ?

Some. https://newleftreview.org/issues/II97/articles/benedict-anderson-riddles-of-yellow-and-red

 

It's called Indo-China for a reason. On a side note, the mix produced very nice looking women. The butchness of Indians and the moon faces of Chinese resulted in lovely looking hybrids.

[metisdead]

A post containing content which was copy and pasted from another site has been removed as a violation of fair use policy.  

[mickybangkok]

On 7/23/2019 at 11:47 AM, Matzzon said:

That´s great news! Maybe the bigger part of all foreign criminalty in Thailand can move to Vietnam too. Then this nice country can go back to what it once was.

And you can join them too!

[jacko45k]

3 hours ago, ChipButty said:

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians

Be brave.

[Matzzon]

59 minutes ago, mickybangkok said:

And you can join them too!

No, it´s gonna be much better here now, so I have decided to stay for a while.

[lkv]

5 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I spend around $30/day on holiday in Vietnam, I meet many backpackers spending less than...

Just like everywhere else, one can pay 800 USD per night to stay in a high end place like Four Seasons The Nam Hai, Hoi An.

 

Although luxury in Vietnam is cheaper than luxury in Phuket, where it can rise to 2,000-3,000 USD per night.

 

The 90 something dollars is an average that includes accomodation.

Edited July 24, 2019 by lkv

[lkv]

6 hours ago, BritManToo said:

So the stats are clearly wrong right from the start, 90% of foreign men visiting Thailand end up having sex with locals.

What label you stick on them is irrelevant.

It's because i misquoted the data. So it's my fault I guess, not the stats fault. 

 

Of the 26.74 million visitors recorded by TAT in 2013, 11.23 million were men suspected by NGOs to have come to Thailand explicitly to engage in prostitution.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Thailand

 

"Each year Thailand is visited by millions of tourists from around the world.  However, many people do not know that 60% of the visitors are male and that an astonishing 70% of those males are sex tourists."

 

http://wonderluhst.net/the-impacts-of-sex-tourism-on-thailand/

 

I hope the stats are more believable now. Apologies for the 30% number, it was bad memory.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by lkv

[mindfulness]

The growth rate of greed, get rich quick business models has shafted the whole place. Well as in the way they say; ‘Sum Nam Nah’ !!! 

 

Idiots !!! 

[Scouse123]

On 7/23/2019 at 4:19 PM, marcusarelus said:

Tourist arrivals Thailand to Vietnam Millions to thousands.  Go to the website on the bottom of the graph to see Vietnam is not even in the ballpark. 

 

Depends on whose graphs and maps you are reading!

 

And your 40 to 1 ratio of arrivals in Thailand and Vietnam is simply not true considering in the first half of the year Vietnam had 8.5 million tourists and expects at least the same in the second half, making approximately 17 million visitors from abroad. So 2:1 ratio would be much more accurate.

 

This figure does not include the substantial domestic market of home grown tourism, estimated at 85 million!!!

 

So much is the rise, that the tourism authority is asking the Vietnamese government to increase the number of days on visa waiver from 15 days to 30 days. This years forecast for international visitors is 17-18 million visitors. I actually trust Vietnam's head count more than I do of T.A.T., that's for sure.

 

Vietnam this year recorded a rise of THAI TOURISTS the largest ever, an increase of over 45%!!!

 

https://www.phnompenhpost.com/business/vietnam-needs-extend-further-visa-exemption-policy-tourists

Edited July 24, 2019 by Scouse123

[mindfulness]

Hats of to the ‘the BIG Joke’ also with his monkey logic of ruining the place of visitors also. 

 

Lol visa restrictions what a joke, this is still a developing country, many rely on tourism yet the monkey brained government are unable understand logic. Idiots !! 

[HeyHeyHey]

24 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

Depends on whose graphs and maps you are reading!

 

And your 40 to 1 ratio of arrivals in Thailand and Vietnam is simply not true considering in the first half of the year Vietnam had 8.5 million tourists and expects at least the same in the second half, making approximately 17 million visitors from abroad. So 2:1 ratio would be much more accurate.

 

This figure does not include the substantial domestic market of home grown tourism, estimated at 85 million!!!

 

So much is the rise, that the tourism authority is asking the Vietnamese government to increase the number of days on visa waiver from 15 days to 30 days. This years forecast for international visitors is 17-18 million visitors. I actually trust Vietnam's head count more than I do of T.A.T., that's for sure.

Vietnamese don't bullshit around with the face thing. They are often brutally honest, you could say even rude.

 

Thais won't say the truth even if you ask and explain that you want to hear it.

 

I prefer the VN way

[Traubert]

29 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

 

 Vietnam this year recorded a rise of THAI TOURISTS the largest ever, an increase of over 45%!!!

 

https://www.phnompenhpost.com/business/vietnam-needs-extend-further-visa-exemption-policy-tourists

Yeah, 349k up from 240k. Hardly a bank buster in tourism terms.

 

That same article cheerfully admits that there's little to see or do in Vietnam. After five visits, I can back that up. The country is boring, not too clean and at 28,500 dong to the pound, dual pricing is rife.

[Scouse123]

12 minutes ago, Traubert said:

Yeah, 349k up from 240k. Hardly a bank buster in tourism terms.

 

That same article cheerfully admits that there's little to see or do in Vietnam. After five visits, I can back that up. The country is boring, not too clean and at 28,500 dong to the pound, dual pricing is rife.

 

Each to their own, I like it and I find plenty to do. Loads of different places to see, great beaches, country of contrasts.

 

What is so fantastic to do in over developed Thailand with an infrastructure that doesn't support its expansion in tourist areas?

 

I am much more into going up to Sapa in the North and down to Danang, Hoi An, after a stop in Hanoi!

 

Far more fun than sitting on a bar stool complaining about all the new Immigration rules in a soi 6 beer bar in Pattaya with old slappers playing connect 4.

 

22 minutes ago, HeyHeyHey said:

Vietnamese don't bullshit around with the face thing. They are often brutally honest, you could say even rude.

 

Thais won't say the truth even if you ask and explain that you want to hear it.

 

I prefer the VN way

 

You and me both, I love their straight talking ways and no nonsense approach to problems, calling a spade a spade.

[young expat]

After working 3 years in Thailand I quit my job, therefore also lost my work permit. For the last 6 months I have been going in and out of Thailand on a tourist visa (actually being a tourist, spending time on the countryside with the Girlfriend and traveling around the country for holiday while keeping my eyes open for new investment opportunities. I am not working, nor married and 30 years away from a retirement visa, and there is no more visa that lets me visit Thailand.

 

• First visa run by land to Poipet Cambodia they did not let me back into the country due to "living in Thailand and not being a tourist. Not having a return ticket home nor 20,000 THB in CASH on hand). Even though clearly being a tourist and not working. They advised me to fly into thailand, so this resulted in having to travel to Siem Reap and bought a plane ticket into Thailand
• 60 days later on my second visa run to Vietnam I stayed 3 weeks in Ho Chi Minh and returned to Suvarnabhumi where i was put in an interview room. I needed to book a ticket out of the country within the next 30 days and was told they suspected me of not being a tourist and working in Thailand. I was told by the officer she put a note in the system for my next arrival and that I should stay more in my home country than in Thailand. 

Safe to say I will be putting my savings elsewhere. heading for a long term visit to Danang next looking to invest in the booming tourism industry there.

 

I love Thailand, Thai people and Thai culture, but with the stricter and more hostile immigration laws i am basically not allowed into Thailand anymore. Vietnam is a clear better option with a quick 3 month multiple entry visa, and a country that still value the huge economic and social benefits over the disadvantages that follow.

 

Edit: for the people mentioning Myanmar as an option - It has not even been 2 years since the massive genocide and civil war. This unrest and instability will follow the country for many years to come, very likely target for hotel-bombings and such.

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by young expat

[brianthainess]

4 minutes ago, young expat said:

After working 3 years in Thailand I quit my job, therefore also lost my work permit. For the last 6 months I have been going in and out of Thailand on a tourist visa (actually being a tourist, spending time on the countryside with the Girlfriend and traveling around the country for holiday while keeping my eyes open for new investment opportunities. I am not working, nor married and 30 years away from a retirement visa, and there is no more visa that lets me visit Thailand.

 

• First visa run by land to Poipet Cambodia they did not let me back into the country due to "living in Thailand and not being a tourist. Not having a return ticket home nor 20,000 THB in CASH on hand). Even though clearly being a tourist and not working. They advised me to fly into thailand, so this resulted in having to travel to Siem Reap and bought a plane ticket into Thailand
• 60 days later on my second visa run to Vietnam I stayed 3 weeks in Ho Chi Minh and returned to Suvarnabhumi where i was put in an interview room. I needed to book a ticket out of the country within the next 30 days and was told they suspected me of not being a tourist and working in Thailand. They told they put a note in the system for my next arrival and that I should stay more in my home country than in Thailand. 

Safe to say I will be putting my savings elsewhere. heading for a long term visit to Danang next looking to invest in the booming tourism industry there.

 

I love Thailand, Thai people and Thai culture, but with the stricter and more hostile immigration laws i am basically not allowed into Thailand anymore. Vietnam is a clear better option with a quick 3 month multiple entry visa, and a country that still value the huge economic and social benefits over the disadvantages that follow.

 

 

 

 

As a tourist it is well known and written that you must have 20,000 in cash and have a ticket out. i would have thought after living and working in Thailand you should have known the rules. you say your only 20 yrs old (30 yrs to go before retirement visa)so you came here when you were 17. well you have 30 years to save 800,000 + sorry but you need to go home AND GET A JOB.

[young expat]

3 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

As a tourist it is well known and written that you must have 20,000 in cash and have a ticket out. i would have thought after living and working in Thailand you should have known the rules. you say your only 20 yrs old (30 yrs to go before retirement visa)so you came here when you were 17. well you have 30 years to save 800,000 + sorry but you need to go home AND GET A JOB.

• A quick fix for that would be to go to the nearest ATM and withdrawl 20,000 and go back in the immigration line, no need for denied entry.
• Sorry, 22* years away from retirement visa, my mistake.
• No need to go home and get a job when funds is not an issue. 

The issue is that as I could be a long term tourist before with no overstays and visa-runs, this is no longer possible.

[brianthainess]

7 minutes ago, young expat said:

A quick fix for that would be to go to the nearest ATM and withdrawl 20,000 and go back in the immigration line, no need for denied entry.

So why did,t you do that.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, Mattd said:

It is a perfectly good example for the quote I made it against, which implied that Thailand is still cheap and those that think it isn't, it is only because the state of their currency.

When I was stating the fuel prices it was when the exchange rate to the GBP was comparable to now at around 39 THB to 1 GBP before 1997.

I will repeat, for those that think Thailand hasn't increased in price, ask a Thai, it is not just the exchange rate. I know and work with Thais that earn from low to high, they all complain.

I agree the UK is more expensive for accommodation, take that out and a lot of things are generally cheaper, food is, beer is (and better), hire cars etc. etc.

I am not saying it is cheaper to live in the UK, as that is not the subject of the OP, what I am saying that in relationship to the OP is tourism will be down when you have a strong Thai Baht and a higher cost of living, which in turn brings less value for money than it ever has, there are many alternatives.

Just have to agree to disagree on your example. Fuel prices in Thailand are virtually directly related to the price of oil, unlike the UK, and that in itself makes it a bad example.

 

I, my wife and all her family are retired and perfectly aware of the prices in Thailand and how they have changed over the last 15 years. You are of course perfectly free to believe what you hear from others and as I said previously it is all about personal circumstances rather than the rate of inflation.

[Rimmer]

An inflammatory post and replies removed

[DrTuner]

17 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

You and me both, I love their straight talking ways and no nonsense approach to problems, calling a spade a spade.

I'll also scratch that on the scoreboard as a very big plus. The need to constantly squeeze the Thais for the truth gets old really, really fast.

[marcusarelus]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:11 PM, AverageBloke said:

How can you speculate that most tourists use at least  10 year old information and pass it off as a valid point ?

Because Thailand is going to have 40 million tourists this year.

[sambum]

On 7/24/2019 at 7:00 AM, fullcave said:

Long cues at the airport will fix it. Oh and force expats to buy your insurance scam. They will be leaving in the droves. Mission accomplished! 

"Long cues at the airport" Or maybe a sharp pointed sick might have the desired effect?

[chrissables]

On 7/23/2019 at 4:50 PM, MartinKal said:

Yes there is competition, but let's take a look at it first.

Bali, Bali the beautiful. But kuta beach has been unfavorably compared to UK's clacton-on-sea. And Ubud is so crowded and the lovely rice terraces built over that people cannot pass on the pavement without stepping into the street. So I wouldn't go there.

 

What about Vietnam Is there a more all year round polluted city than Hanoi? Yes, Saigon. And is Agent Orange a Buddhist attraction or is it in fact a deadly poison that remains in the soil together with the cluster bombs from the last war? So that's off my itinerary.

 

Malaysia is fine, but Liberties restricted if you know what I mean and the cost of living there is a lot higher than in Thailand. So I wouldn't go that either.

 

That leaves Myanmar which to my mind represents the biggest long-term threat, but for the moment is not developed for tourism.

 

No, rather than trying to blame the competition for the drop in numbers, the new Tourist Authority Chief could do well to focus on the weaknesses of Thailand itself. And start with taking a look at the infrastructure which has unfortunately being eroded since it was put in place in the 1980s.

There is a lot more to Vietnam than those two cities, wonderful beaches and mountain ranges stretching along the whole country.