Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, lkv said:

It has been made very clear that anybody that does not comply with TM30 will be arrested.

 

You are petitioning a military regime.

Nobody has been arrested or threatened with arrest for not doing a TM30. Seriously, why would you make stuff like that up ???

 

The military regime has ended, its now an elected government. 

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Good job digging these up. Please check the PM which i sent you, i would really like to know how you found these.

We can now at least say under which section exactly retirees are allowed to enter, this is section 34 (15) (4).

These two documents add the following activities to section 34 (15) for which a foreigner can temporarily enter Thailand (my translation might not be 100% accurate, they use quite difficult terms to describe it and i just use easy english terms):

First document:

1. Family of servants of diplomats
2. Married to Thai / having Thai children
3. Working for government organizations

Second document:
4. Retirees
5. Ex Thai citizens
6. Medical
7. Sports trainer / coach
8. Legal matters, witness

First document is from 1980 and second from 1997. So the retiree category didn't exist before 1997? 

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

highly unlikely he would go through 10 000 names and would be impossible to check without passport number, relying only on the name ????

True, so they can just be disregarded as fake. Nevertheless, the publicity in BKK Post & co means much more here than the number of signers, as that's public which means lose face or issue a statement. Basically it's done already, now we just need to wait for some reply.

[CaptainJack]

5 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

We paid 30,000 baht for website, advertising, translation, server, etc. I worked 60 hours on that. We received donations for that project of about 60,000 baht. Even some <deleted> complained that we were making money with this. Everything will be inside accounting and we will pay taxes. With this project, talking to immigration, exposing myself, sending letters to medias, replying on websites, sorry, I am exhausted, and pissed off by the reactions of some expats. And they want everything in one shot: They complained on English, SSL security, on that it does not include insurance for retirement, that it does not include X, Y , Z.

 

Just do better, any of the complainers, if you can. I am out of Thaivisa now. I think we did a great job and were about 50 working on that project. It is not MY personal project. We thought about it. We did what we think is the best. Not going to court to challenge it.... that would be stupid.

Please don't leave or give up. I've exposed myself by many public Facebook posts about your efforts.   I will probably never be allowed in Thailand again,  which means the woman I still love, I'll never have a chance to even see her again.   Ignore those that want to tear you down.

 

Please....

[KhaoYai]

22 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

 Ignore those that want to tear you down.

I don't think they want to tear anyone dowm. They're just a set of whingers who sit behind their keyboards all day complaining about everything but doing nothing.

 

Then when someone tries to do something constructive, the very same people criticise them for doing so.

 

Personally I don't find TM30 a problem, I think its useless and a waste of time but its not so difficult.

Edited July 30, 2019 by KhaoYai

[wobalt]

Sorry, typo. Article 37(3)(4) is to report to the local police. Only 37(2) report to the immigration.

We have actually no real local police in our village. My family takes over this task. So I have to report to them?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Scott]

Troll post reported and removed.  

 

[z42]

Had a trip to immigration today to fill out a tm28 form for the rsturn from a weekend away.

My hotel hadn't reported me staying. Another lad i knew in the office said he hadn't reported him either.

 

Pathetic system all around. Pure farce ????

[Pluto56]

Just want to add my thanks to all the people behind this. 

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, DrTuner said:

First document is from 1980 and second from 1997. So the retiree category didn't exist before 1997? 

I don't know how retirees were allowed to stay here before 1997, maybe they really didn't have a special visa? Back then you could just use unlimited visa exempts, or you just stayed in the country as long as you wanted, and when you had to leave you just paid the 20k THB overstay fine, it was no problem to come right back with a new visa exempt.

Does anybody here know if there was some dedicated retirement visa before 1997?

[lamyai3]

8 hours ago, BestB said:

i wonder what she had to say in response? cat i mean. ????

Her initial response on being asked to sign the petition:

"Me?...How?" 

[lamyai3]

6 hours ago, jackdd said:

Does anybody here know if there was some dedicated retirement visa before 1997?

Not sure of the history and full details, but there was certainly a visa option for retirees then. There was a two tier income requirement depending on age 55 or 60 (lowered to 50 in 1998), and the grandfathering rules that allow extensions based on the old amount of 200k relate to those who were here prior to that date who've been on continuous extensions. 

[schlemmi]

9 hours ago, DrTuner said:

First document is from 1980 and second from 1997. So the retiree category didn't exist before 1997? 

seems to be like that.

[ChipButty]

I wish you the best of luck guys, I did sign 

[schlemmi]

9 hours ago, wobalt said:

We have actually no real local police in our village. My family takes over this task. So I have to report to them?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

That means the nearest policestation to your home. The policestation in duty to take care about the security at the place where your home is.

[TAIFUN]

17 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

They complained on English, SSL security

Your site have a two errors for HTTPS.

Mixed content in site logo.

 

Info

 

URL's need to change - http > https:

http://reform-thai-immigration.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/thai-flag-75px.png

 

http://reform-thai-immigration.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/thai-flag-1.png

 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by TAIFUN

[Roy Baht]

12 hours ago, BestB said:

highly unlikely he would go through 10 000 names and would be impossible to check without passport number, relying only on the name ????

But that's exactly one of the reasons this petition is ridiculous. If the signers can't be identified as people actually living in Thailand--or even actual people--the petition has no legal meaning. Only a list that clearly identified all of its signatories (with, say, passport or visa numbers) would be valid. Risk of political reprisal isn't some accidental result of a petition. It is an essential component to the petition having meaning. You can't gain freedom without risking it. You can't have it both ways. So if you think you can sign this petition and still be anonymous--if that's what you prefer--you are simply engaging in theatre.

 

The other reason this petition is invalid is the manner in which it was produced. A valid petition is edited and complete BEFORE signatures are collected. This petition was first released as a draft--which people signed--then edited and rewritten--then more people signed--then edited and rewritten some more--then more people signed. That's not how valid petitions are produced. You can't change the wording of a petition every five minutes and then claim that everyone has signed the same petition. And if the law firm representing this project weren't imbeciles, they would know that.

 

It's great that this project got media attention, a mention in the Bangkok Post, a response from the Thai government. A street protest (another form of political theatre) might have had a similar effect. But as an actual legal document, this petition is garbage.

 

 

[wobalt]

There is no near police station.my family takes care of security matters. There are no paved roads, mobile phones net often not work.


Gesendet von iPad mit Thaivisa Connect

[wobalt]

There is no near police station.my family takes care of security matters. There are no paved roads, mobile phones net often not work.


Gesendet von iPad mit Thaivisa Connect

[Peterw42]

42 pages of mostly arguing the meaning and interpretation of the Thai immigration act, like it matters.

 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the Act says, what subsection X says, or someones interpretation of the act. TM30s are being asked for under lots of different circumstance and fines are being levied, services denied. The petition is asking for the TM30 issues to be addressed, not an interpretation or re-write of the act, because whats written or not written in the Act is largely irrelevant to what is happening in practice.

 

 

 

[BestB]

16 minutes ago, Roy Baht said:

But that's exactly one of the reasons this petition is ridiculous. If the signers can't be identified as people actually living in Thailand--or even actual people--the petition has no legal meaning. Only a list that clearly identified all of its signatories (with, say, passport or visa numbers) would be valid. Risk of political reprisal isn't some accidental result of a petition. It is an essential component to the petition having meaning. You can't gain freedom without risking it. You can't have it both ways. So if you think you can sign this petition and still be anonymous--if that's what you prefer--you are simply engaging in theatre.

 

The other reason this petition is invalid is the manner in which it was produced. A valid petition is edited and complete BEFORE signatures are collected. This petition was first released as a draft--which people signed--then edited and rewritten--then more people signed--then edited and rewritten some more--then more people signed. That's not how valid petitions are produced. You can't change the wording of a petition every five minutes and then claim that everyone has signed the same petition. And if the law firm representing this project weren't imbeciles, they would know that.

 

It's great that this project got media attention, a mention in the Bangkok Post, a response from the Thai government. A street protest (another form of political theatre) might have had a similar effect. But as an actual legal document, this petition is garbage.

 

 

I have never come across a petit tin that required people to enter their passport numbers. Every petition I ever signed has a name , email

address and location. This is how online petitions are done worldwide.

 

regarding changes , there are hundreds of petitions out there to support one cause or another . I doubt anyone goes back to re read every day if anything changed, it is possible some text has been amended but highly unlikely the main course of it was changed .

 

yes perhaps would have been wise to prepare it and proof read it prior to final release but that does not change the fact of the good deed and intentions they trying to achieve .

 

as I told you before, may well be a waste of time , but without trying you never know 

[Roy Baht]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

The petition is asking for the TM30 issues to be addressed, not an interpretation or re-write of the act, because whats written or not written in the Act is largely irrelevant to what is happening in practice.

 

No. The petition is asking for a re-write of the act:  "Collectively the group of people signing this petition would like to see a change in the law which would lead to the form TM30 being abolished altogether."

[Roy Baht]

22 minutes ago, BestB said:

I have never come across a petit tin that required people to enter their passport numbers. Every petition I ever signed has a name , email

address and location. This is how online petitions are done worldwide.

 

regarding changes , there are hundreds of petitions out there to support one cause or another . I doubt anyone goes back to re read every day if anything changed, it is possible some text has been amended but highly unlikely the main course of it was changed .

 

yes perhaps would have been wise to prepare it and proof read it prior to final release but that does not change the fact of the good deed and intentions they trying to achieve .

 

as I told you before, may well be a waste of time , but without trying you never know 

 

Yeah? Now show me how many online petitions have been successful.

 

 

Good deed? This petition hasn't done anything. Andrew Biggs in a long queue got more attention than this. Good intentions? Great. Give me good intentions and 100 baht and I'll buy you a cup of coffee.
 

You realise Fantasyland and Thailand are two different countries? Which one are you living in?

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Roy Baht

[elwood]

Very good editorial in BP this morning, regarding the TM30.

This is the kind of exposure that even the Immigration bosses and politicians would probably be made aware of.

[Joe Mcseismic]

24 minutes ago, BestB said:

(snip) but that does not change the fact of the good deed and intentions they trying to achieve .

Isn't that what the road to Hell is paved with?

[BestB]

5 minutes ago, Roy Baht said:

 

Yeah? Now show me how many online petitions have been successful.

 

 

Good deed? This petition hasn't done anything. Andrew Biggs in a long queue got more attention than this. Good intentions? Great. Give me good intentions and 100 baht and I'll buy you a cup of coffee.
 

You realise Fantasyland and Thailand are two different countries? Which one are you living in?

 

I could not show you because I do not follow each and every one. But feel free to post total number of petitions worldwide and ratio of success 

[BestB]

1 minute ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Isn't that what the road to Hell is paved with?

You tell me, I have not been to hell yet and google maps do not have the directions yet

[schlemmi]

1 hour ago, wobalt said:

There is no near police station.my family takes care of security matters. There are no paved roads, mobile phones net often not work.


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The police in your Moo Baan, or your Tambon or your Ampoe. That is the "ตำรวจท้องที่" (tamruad tong tee) the law refers to. Or just give it to your familymember in duty to take care of the local security to pass it to the right receiver. Or send it by registrated mail. But only do it ig you are realy shure that you have to report anything because processing it occupies resources.

[lamyai3]

1 hour ago, Roy Baht said:

But that's exactly one of the reasons this petition is ridiculous.

The TM30 is ridiculous, and by extension so is anyone who supports it or argues for it. Sure, the petition is flawed, but that's hardly relevant - it's a valiant attempt to raise the level of complaint from barstool and forum whinging to a national level where it has to be taken seriously. The fact that it's mentioned in today's excellent Bangkok Post editorial "TM30 a shot in the foot" is proof enough that it's been a resounding success so far, whether the petition ultimately gets the requisite number of signatures or not. Once it's out in the open like this, immigration can no longer ignore the problems they've created. 

[DrTuner]

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

42 pages of mostly arguing the meaning and interpretation of the Thai immigration act, like it matters.

 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what the Act says, what subsection X says, or someones interpretation of the act. TM30s are being asked for under lots of different circumstance and fines are being levied, services denied. The petition is asking for the TM30 issues to be addressed, not an interpretation or re-write of the act, because whats written or not written in the Act is largely irrelevant to what is happening in practice.

Actually all that matters is the act. The immigration police is simply doing their job and enforcing it. What are we going to ask, please don't do your job?

 

The act needs to be changed and the requirement either put in the same blanket as the 24h reports, i.e. they can be waived by the Director General for certain visa classes, or the clause scrapped altogether. Even if somehow somebody was able to lobby this to the government setting the laws, it'll take years and will open a can of worms when a law from 1979 starts to get a makeover under a foreigner-hostile military government. 

 

Be careful what you wish for.