Expat group launches online petition calling for TM.30 to be scrapped

[DrTuner]

30 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Actually, according to the 1950 Registration of Aliens Act even permanent residents have to report to the district office when they stay in another province for 7 days or more.  This has to be done within 48 hours of a 7 day stay, i.e. within 9 days of arriving in the new province.  However, I have never heard of anyone doing this, or of any attempts to enforce it.  Obviously, if you actually move to another province or district, you need to report the DO to get your new address in your tabien baan. I did this about 3 months late once and got fined B100.

IIRC PRs also have to visit and get new alien book every five years? 

 

They do love their surveillance.

[DrTuner]

31 minutes ago, schlemmi said:

They are in duty to foreward it to the statistics department of the imigration. On this way the data will be feed into database. Other reason is to have the local police aware about the local foreigners.

In theory yes. I just wonder exactly how much of the mountains of A4 immigration gets ever gets fed into the database. Yet another thing they really need to do, all of it should be paperless.

[schlemmi]

34 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

In theory yes. I just wonder exactly how much of the mountains of A4 immigration gets ever gets fed into the database. Yet another thing they really need to do, all of it should be paperless.

I had to visit some of the thai backoffices. Not at immigration but another part of provincial adminstration. Its amazing how many tons of A4 where all around.

[KhaoYai]

If, in attempting to sort out the mess that is TM30, this group establishes a line of contact with Thai Immigration, that may provide the basis on which to discuss other issues.

 

For me, the biggest problems with Thai Immigration are the lack of clarity in the laws/acts/regulations and more importantly, the lack of consistency in how those rules are applied.

 

For example, I've read reports on TV regarding the income requirements for both retirement and marriage based extensions. The regulations clearly (sort of clearly ????) state that the requirements can either be met by a regular monthly income OR a lump sum in the bank. Yet members here are reporting that some immigration offices will not entertain regular monthly income.

 

That is a clear example of what I'm talking about - a rule is a rule. If a speed limit is 50kph, a policeman cannot decide that today the limit is 40kph.

 

As I say, if a line of contact is established, these issues may also be addressed. One of the first things I'd like to see, and it would be very easy to do - is for the head of immigration to issue an order to every office stating very clearly, the exact requirements for an extension and ordering all I.O's to follow that guidance.

 

Nothing may come of this but something might - if no-one does anything, then there is no chance of change and the signs are that things will get worse.

Edited August 1, 2019 by KhaoYai

[DrTuner]

13 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

One of the first things I'd like to see, and it would be very easy to do - is for the head of immigration to issue an order to every office stating very clearly, the exact requirements for an extension and ordering all I.O's to follow that guidance.

I remember seeing some orders that looked like they were faxed in from headquarters on TVF. I can only imagine what happens then.. it lands on the provincial head's desk, who reads it, then "adapts" it to "local" tastes, calls in the troops and tells them all about it, after which they return to their desks and do whatever they can to maximize their profit potential. 

 

Corruption. It's so endemic it'll never go away here. Unless it's all 100% automated (and the software written by non-Thais). That's basically the only way issues could ever get fixed. Replace them all with computers.

[jackdd]

4 hours ago, schlemmi said:

Do you know about any document that substitutes this one?

I found this document, which looks like it keeps getting updated by the Office of the Councel of State when new ministerial orders are released: http://www.krisdika.go.th/librarian/get?sysid=683094&ext=htm

Looks like there was no update to the relevant section since the second document which you posted  seperately (ข้อ ๑๔ in the document)

So currently it does indeed look like tourists and people with business visa / extension (and people who stay for some other reasons) are exempt from 37 (3) and (4).

But people who have a visa or extension for being retired and married to Thai / having Thai children (and probably also Thailand Elite visa holders) have to do the reporting under 37 (3) and (4)

 

25 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

One of the first things I'd like to see, and it would be very easy to do - is for the head of immigration to issue an order to every office stating very clearly, the exact requirements for an extension and ordering all I.O's to follow that guidance.

This won't happen, because exactly this is making them a lot of money.

Edited August 1, 2019 by jackdd

[Odysseus123]

KhaoYai"For me, the biggest problems with Thai Immigration are the lack of clarity in the laws/acts/regulations and more importantly, the lack of consistency in how those rules are applied."

 

Excellent post.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Odysseus123

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

But people who have a visa or extension for being retired and married to Thai / having Thai children (and probably also Thailand Elite visa holders) have to do the reporting under 37 (3) and (4)

I got the "elite", it's PR (Privileged Entry) and is treated as a tourist visa (evident when trying to renew 5y driver's license and other places that require non-immigrant visa, it's a no-go). So exempt. It was created with a ministerial regulation, the link is here in the guts of TVF.

 

EDIT: I see you were already on it ????

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by DrTuner

[IvorBiggun2]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Nothing may come of this but something might

 

 

 

I'll put you down as fence sitter then? Always best to edge your bets.

Edited August 1, 2019 by IvorBiggun2

[schlemmi]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

I found this document, which looks like it keeps getting updated by the Office of the Councel of State when new ministerial orders are released: http://www.krisdika.go.th/librarian/get?sysid=683094&ext=htm

Looks like there was no update to the relevant section since the second document which you posted  seperately (ข้อ ๑๔ in the document)

So currently it does indeed look like tourists and people with business visa / extension (and people who stay for some other reasons) are exempt from 37 (3) and (4).

But people who have a visa or extension for being retired and married to Thai / having Thai children (and probably also Thailand Elite visa holders) have to do the reporting under 37 (3) and (4)

 

This won't happen, because exactly this is making them a lot of money.

This doc you linked to is about changing the kind of visa. ตรวจลงตรา Truad Long Traa is the terminus technikus for visa.

[Isaanbiker]

On 7/30/2019 at 6:42 PM, lkv said:

The petition calls for the abolition of the TM30.

 

Reasons given: massive dowturn in tourism, drop in foreign investment, hardship on married families.

Plus they didn't use it since 1979. It's one of the weirdest regulations I've ever experienced in LOS, I've also signed the petition. 

[Damrongsak]

On 7/28/2019 at 8:11 AM, mike787 said:

Suggesting a micro chip or sexy ankle bracelet as an alternative might be a good trade off seeing who you're dealing with. ...

I think the authorities would prefer this arrangement:

 

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, schlemmi said:

This doc you linked to is about changing the kind of visa. ตรวจลงตรา Truad Long Traa is the terminus technikus for visa.

This document is actually about many things, it's quite long. But the document also contains the additional categories under 34 (15).

These categories which were first introduced (together with the condition for exemption of 37 (3) and (4)) in 2523 and updated in 2540 (the documents which you posted before) were not updated since then.

I just wanted to say, that if there had been any update to this ministerial order (categories / exemptions of section 37), it would most likely have found it's way in the document which i was referring to. Since they didn't update this document, this most likely means the ministerial order was not changed, and the current version is the one which we can see in the documents which you posted.

 

1 hour ago, DrTuner said:

I got the "elite", it's PR (Privileged Entry) and is treated as a tourist visa (evident when trying to renew 5y driver's license and other places that require non-immigrant visa, it's a no-go). So exempt. It was created with a ministerial regulation, the link is here in the guts of TVF.

 

EDIT: I see you were already on it ????

Yes, the Elite visa is quite strange. I get the impression that with the Elite visa you are simply permitted to stay for one year, without falling under any of the given categories. If this is the case, then you actually don't enter under section 34.

Edited August 1, 2019 by jackdd

[ThaiLawOnline]

 

From the famous Stephff. Taken from his twitter account.

[garyk]

You guys have not seen anything yet! The enforcement of the TM30 and the new expat rules are child's play IMHO.

As soon as China secures the navel base in Cambodia. The western expats are in for a world of hurt. Thailand and the rest of the countries in the triangle will fall in line pretty quick. Thailand is a great place, but if I were to go back for an extended stay I would make sure I had a quick out! Also I would watch the political situation very close. Keep a very low profile..

Edited August 1, 2019 by garyk

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

 

 

 

I'll put you down as fence sitter then? Always best to edge your bets.

No fences here. I was one of the first to sign.

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, garyk said:

You guys have not seen anything yet! The enforcement of the TM30 and the new expat rules are child's play IMHO.

As soon as China secures the navel base in Cambodia. The western expats are in for a world of hurt. Thailand and the rest of the countries in the triangle will fall in line pretty quick. Thailand is a great place, but if I were to go back for an extended stay I would make sure I had a quick out! Also I would watch the political situation very close. Keep a very low profile..

I don't think the naval base makes much difference, but you are right, always have a plan B, C and D. A quick look into Thailand's history and checking the dates gives some light. F.ex. it seems pensioneers were added in 1996 to the "others" category of the immigration rules. Just happened to be the tom yam crisis that time, I bet the money was welcome then. Now it's bye bye and thanks for all the fish.

 

Always one leg out.

[RBOP]

I believe the Immigration Department is misinterpreting Article 37 and maybe 38 and a Class Action lawsuit should be filed to block the fines currently being imposed.  I wonder if Khun Srisuwan Janya would be interested in this? Or maybe the Office of the Ombudsman? Probably not. 

 

I believe the term residence is being misinterpreted and abused to collect fines

 

https://reform-thai-immigration.com/ 

 

 

 

[schlemmi]

I decided to publish my personal experiences now and hope it cold be usefull. I apologize for the quite long text and the document i upload is not translated.

 

Two weeks ago i had a visit at my concerning immigration to extend my staypermit for 30 days. I was in TH on 30 days visa exempt because 
i where not aware about the new online appointment system the embassy at Vientianne (Laos) launched already. I was not able to apply for a visa right away so i decided to travel back home. 
At the NongKai border i got a 30 days stay permit on visa exempt and travelled home right away. I made an appointment via the online system. 
A few days later i realized to have that  apointment on 2562-07-15 and 
the two following days are hollidays in both Laos and Thailand. That would efford a few days staying in Lao to wait for my Visa. Due to this i decided to
extend my staypermit for 30 days and make a new apointment. To enshure i get the 30 days extension i called to one of the numbers published on the immigrations website. The officer told me its not possible and 
asked me where i live. I told the province and the reply was have to 
contact the immigration at my province. I told i get your number from the 
immigrations website at my province. The reply "I moved i am no longer 
there." Next i called the hardwired telefon and got an officer told me: 
"yes its possible for one time for 30 days. Did you report your address...". 
I said: "yes". Reply IO: "no by your housemaster". I: "Im the owner of my 
own house and the housemaster according to the housebook to. I reported 
myself already". IO: "OK, bring copie of your housebook and your receipt 
with you when visit us to extend your stay permit".


I made my selfreport a few years ago and a few others in earlyer times too. 
Because there is no reason to report over and over i stopped this efford. 
To be on the safe side i took a look to the law again an found all is OK.
Additional i found  the website of Samutprakarn Immigration. Directly
on the first page the FAQ: "Q: Does my wife has to report my Address? A:
The Houseowner has to report.... This has to be done only the first time."
For me a clear statement.

At the local immigration the IO asked for my receipt slip and i handed out
the one from a few years ago. The IO: "No this is invalid already". 
I: "No,as you can see i reported according to the law." The IO: "You have to
report report again when you come back". I: "please show me the law".  
The IO gave me the Thai Version of the Immigration Act with Article
37 and Article 38 highlighted on the paper. I took a look to it and explained:
"The law urges me to report  foreigners i receive to live in my house within
24 hours they starts living there. Not more and not less and i reported 
already as the receict slip tells you. I still stay in my house and i 
not moved to another place". Answer IO: "You have to report each time you
come back". Now i handed out the webpage from Samuthprakarn office. The IO 
took a look and said: "This means only the the first time when you come back
but that every time when you come back."

Then the IO told me he would fine me because of the so long overdue. I
denied to pay any fine, but if a new TM30 and TM28 is needed i will fill out one. While i went to the take the forms the IO proceed: "If you not pay you 
not get the extension". I: "OK, i will emmediately discuss this toppic with 
the (Gong Bankab Truad Kon Kau Mueang 3) but for now you will not fine me".
The (Gong Bankap Truad Kon Kau Mueang 3) is the next higer level at the 
immigration institution which controls the activities of the local 
offices located in my region. 
The IO: "Please do that and give me the result. We are in trouble all 
immigrations act in another way etc...". I had the feeling he realy needs help.

I wrote a letter (TheDocument.pdf but here the anonymized version x_0.jpeg x_1.jpeg).
I contactet the vice superintend from another immigration i know from and
asked him to read this document before i send i out. I startet a "LINE" conversation with him to send him the documents.

Here the "LINE" chat. Original in Thai but i translated and anonymized:

I:
  TheSocument.pdf (My letter, but here replaced by X_0.jpeg and x_1.jpeg)
  พรบ.pdf   (The Immigration act in Thai in the newest version)
  1.pdf           (The related Rabiab Grom Tamruad, the same i posted here already)

5 minutes later a reply:

He:                  
  Visa tourist the foreigner not need to report according
  Article 37(2)(3)(4) only the thai housemaster has to report
  according article 38.

Another 10 minutes later:
He:
  I will take action.

I myself wrote to clarify as good as possible: 
I:
  This time on 30 days visa exempt
I:
  The next times Non-O married with thai wife.
I:
  According to Article 38 i not report each time when i travel
  elsewhere and come back.

1 hour later:
He:
  That's correct.

A few days later and because i could not realy belive the simplicity
of that issue i contacted him again.

I:
  Sawasdee Krab
  I am a little bit confused.
  I am right or the immigration officer is right?
  Na Krab

6 minutels later i added:
I:
  You told, you will  take action. What exactly means it?

2:30 later the Answer:
He:
  I will Coordinate it at your immigration. 
He:
  Not need to pay any fine.

I:
  Thank you. I will wait 15 days to receive a result.
He:
  Krab
He:
  If there are any problems where i can help please tell me.

I was wondering about he told me that is no need to report
according to 37(2) so i contacted again.

I: 
  SawasDee Krab
  You told no need to report according 37(2)(3)(4) but i learned
  there is only an exemption according 37(3)(4) combined with what is
  in the (Rabiab Grom Tamruad). Where the exeption for 37(2) is from?

He: 
  When you enter the country you report on the TM6 form
  already where you stay. If you not change you not need to report
  according 37(2).

To clarify more precicely i wrote:
I:
  That means  if i travel to another province 2 or 3 days no need to report?
I:
  Because i will return to my former address that means i not change my 
  address where i live.
I:
  Where i basically live.

25 minutes later:

He:
  Krab

I: 
  Thank you a lot.

In the meanwhile i joined the discussion here and i found that this 
stuff could be usefull for all, not only to me. So i would like to share it.
I asked him for permission because i not want him in trouble. 
This actual posted translation is anonymized. I removed his and my names
and the location of the immigration offices.

I:
I ask for permission to share the content of this chat
with other people but i not want to get you in trouble.

It was on 2562-07-30. Until now i wait for an answer. He already read 
my request.

Until now i not send out the original document and will wait until
the 15 day are over. Than i will contact him again and will ask him if he or myself will send it out.

Sorry for this quite long text, but i hope it helps a little.

[FarFlungFalang]

10 hours ago, garyk said:

You guys have not seen anything yet! The enforcement of the TM30 and the new expat rules are child's play IMHO.

As soon as China secures the navel base in Cambodia. The western expats are in for a world of hurt. Thailand and the rest of the countries in the triangle will fall in line pretty quick. Thailand is a great place, but if I were to go back for an extended stay I would make sure I had a quick out! Also I would watch the political situation very close. Keep a very low profile..

If China takes over and I don't have a quick out I might die,I drive quite a lot in Thailand and I know I might die but it doesn't worry me to much as I know that one way or another I'm going to die so I'm not going to spend my time worrying about what may or may not happen.

[DrTuner]

Schlemmi, thanks for the background info, very interesting.

 

The comment about only needing to do a TM30 if the address is different from TM6 has some support when you take a look at the first form in 1.pdf, where the title says 'Form for foreign nationals to notify their change of address if different from that stated on their arrival card'. That, or the next form, seems to be the predecessor of TM28 and the last one is TM47. 

 

However it's the housemaster, often a Thai, that needs to do the TM30, which doesn't look like any of the forms in 1.pdf. So I think they still got their wires crossed, even when the interpretation from the IO makes sense. It should be 100% exact without any room for interpretation - which just seems impossible for anything in here.

 

EDIT: Current versions of the TM28/30 for comparison are here:

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by DrTuner

[schlemmi]

35 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

Schlemmi, thanks for the background info, very interesting.

 

The comment about only needing to do a TM30 if the address is different from TM6 has some support when you take a look at the first form in 1.pdf, where the title says 'Form for foreign nationals to notify their change of address if different from that stated on their arrival card'. That, or the next form, seems to be the predecessor of TM28 and the last one is TM47. 

 

However it's the housemaster, often a Thai, that needs to do the TM30, which doesn't look like any of the forms in 1.pdf. So I think they still got their wires crossed, even when the interpretation from the IO makes sense. It should be 100% exact without any room for interpretation - which just seems impossible for anything in here.

1.pdf only covers 37(2)(3)(4)(5).

 

(2) not live @ where you stated in tm6 the departure arrival card. Its the 1st template.

 

(3)(4) is the 2nd template

 

(5) 90 days report. 3rd template.

 

The article 38 and its tm30 is covered in another police rule. I will upload it immediately. Sorry for it was missing because its the essential point of the discussion.

 

There are 4 templates. 1,2 is the normal tm30 for private residences and 3,4 for hotels, guesthouses, resorts etc..

 

Meldepflicht-Hausvorstand.pdf

Edited August 2, 2019 by schlemmi
Typo

[Arkady]

19 hours ago, DrTuner said:

IIRC PRs also have to visit and get new alien book every five years? 

 

They do love their surveillance.

I didn't object to 5 year reporting to the local cop shop as it only took a few minutes, except it usually involved a second visit to pick it up.  Anyway you still have to get a new ID card every 8 years as a Thai citizen, until you are over 70.  Then they think you are just about to drop off the hook and few will make it to 78, so no point in asking you to come back again.  Driving licence is lifetime for those who got them before around 2003.  Thai passports should be moving to 10 year renewal from 5 when the company that won the bidding recently gets its act together.

[Fred white]

Simple question simple answer I have been living here over 2 years on a retirement visa when we visit our niece in another Provence does she need to do a tm30 on me

[schlemmi]

18 minutes ago, Fred white said:

Simple question simple answer I have been living here over 2 years on a retirement visa when we visit our niece in another Provence does she need to do a tm30 on me

Yes, if she takes you in her home and if she is the housemaster in terms on article 38. Theoretically.

[Arkady]

18 hours ago, DrTuner said:

I don't think the naval base makes much difference, but you are right, always have a plan B, C and D. A quick look into Thailand's history and checking the dates gives some light. F.ex. it seems pensioneers were added in 1996 to the "others" category of the immigration rules. Just happened to be the tom yam crisis that time, I bet the money was welcome then. Now it's bye bye and thanks for all the fish.

 

Always one leg out.

Thailand was still in denial about the economy in 1996, despite the warnings of some foreign economists who were told by the Bank of Thailand their findings were based on out of date data.  The financial meltdown hit the following year in 1997.

[CaptainJack]

20 hours ago, garyk said:

You guys have not seen anything yet! The enforcement of the TM30 and the new expat rules are child's play IMHO.

As soon as China secures the navel base in Cambodia. The western expats are in for a world of hurt. Thailand and the rest of the countries in the triangle will fall in line pretty quick. Thailand is a great place, but if I were to go back for an extended stay I would make sure I had a quick out! Also I would watch the political situation very close. Keep a very low profile..

Perfect timing for your comment. 

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/bangkok-thailand-several-small-explosions-bombs-asean-summit-11774794

[DrTuner]

23 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Thailand was still in denial about the economy in 1996, despite the warnings of some foreign economists who were told by the Bank of Thailand their findings were based on out of date data.  The financial meltdown hit the following year in 1997.

Another interesting thing in 1996 was it was the year before the perhaps only democratic constitution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Thailand#1997_constitution . The polar opposite of today and it'll be reflected in immigration too.

 

The basic gist of what I'm trying to say: 1996, when pensionieers were added as a category, was a more advantageous time for foreigners, now it's going in opposite direction. And IMHO will only get worse.

[ThaiLawOnline]

7 minutes ago, CaptainJack said:

Perfect timing for your comment. 

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/bangkok-thailand-several-small-explosions-bombs-asean-summit-11774794

 

These terrorist surely did their tm28 and tm30.....

[ThaiLawOnline]

On 7/28/2019 at 7:27 PM, NCC1701A said:

this should be pinned in a banner on the top of every page on Thai Visa. "Sign the petition for immigration reform."

 

this web site can make it happen.

I will ask. I know the owner of Thaivisa.