The Half Ownership Laws

[SailingHome]

Obviously these questions point out the fact that a divorce is imminent. She won't show me land papers, never answers questions, is never home... too may signs that I can't give her enough and she doesn't want a husband with Parkinson's.

 

1) Since marriage, my wife has been given a lot of land by family. My lawyer says that 1/2 belongs to me. Can I put my half in someone else' name that I trust or in a holding company? If not, what about usufruct or 30-30? 

 

2) Can she transfer or sell any of it without my permission? Odds are she is transferring all of it to a sister or someone to hold until after a divorce.

 

Since she is not going to cooperate, I am going to have to pay 10000 to get a list from the land office. Then probably have to sue her to get the land.

 

TiT... this would be a no brainier in the USA

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by SailingHome

[Peterw42]

OP, if you have a lawyer that says half the land belongs to you, why not ask your lawyer these questions.

 

Usually land held by a Thai wife is a non-marital asset and not subject to a 50/50 split in divorce, Usually the foreign husband signs a document to that effect when the land is acquired.

 

Not sure what a land office search would achieve as you will not be on any title in the capacity of a joint owner, you cant own land.

[BritManToo]

It's unlikely you have any right to land she was given by her family.

Different if it was land purchased during the marriage.

Edited August 2, 2019 by BritManToo

[Tony125]

Your lawyer is giving you wrong advice. Property owned by either of you before marriage is not marital property  and therefore she does not have to share with you in a divorice. Also any property/cash that either of you recieve thru a wil or gift is not marital property and does not have  to be split 50/50. Only land or home purchased after  marriage is devided 50--50.  A usufruct or a prenup on property must be done at time of marriage. A usufruct is good if single  but a divorice  basically nullifies it as divorice court court will order 50/50 split of marital assets (property bought at time or after marriage)

That is probably why she never showed you land she owns as she knows she doesn't have to as you have no rights to property she owned before she married you.

[HHTel]

8 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Usually the foreign husband signs a document to that effect when the land is acquired.

That document is not worth the paper it's written on and is not accepted in court.  It's a document dreamed up by the land office and has no legal standing.

[digbeth]

What if she was named in a relatives' will that was drafted before the marriage, but only received the land from the estate from the relative that had just died after you have married her? are you still entitled to half that? 

[Lone Ranger]

So a usufruct agreement with just a farang's name on it whilst married to Thai wife would be null & void if divorce happens & the house would have to be sold & monies divided 50/50?

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

So a usufruct agreement with just a farang's name on it whilst married to Thai wife would be null & void if divorce happens & the house would have to be sold & monies divided 50/50?

irrelevant, as any  agreement between a husband and wife can be cancelled be either party at any time.

[kevinmartyn]

A foreign has zero rights in Thailand. A foreign cannot purchase or own land in Thailand. Thai female culture is NOT the same as western culture! To a Thai female it's just about providing for her and families

[ballbreaker]

I agree with Tony that you are not entitled to any of the land gifted to your wife.  You would be entitled to income that might be derived from that land.

 

Check Section 1471 of Civil and Commercial Code Book 5 which you can find using link below.

 

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/TCCC-book5.pdf

 

[ThomasThBKK]

5 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

So a usufruct agreement with just a farang's name on it whilst married to Thai wife would be null & void if divorce happens & the house would have to be sold & monies divided 50/50?

IF it is between WIFE AND YOU and IF IT WAS DONE DURING MARRIAGE - then yes, otherwise no.

 

Quote

A foreign has zero rights in Thailand. A foreign cannot purchase or own land in Thailand. Thai female culture is NOT the same as western culture! To a Thai female it's just about providing for her and families

 

You can get half of the land in a divorce if it's marrital property or have a will giving you land, u just need to sell it within 12 months (or put it into a company etc).

Foreigners can nominate a company on their behalf to purchase land, and usufructs and co are valid tools to own rights to land.

It's not correct that you have "zero" rights, i know some guys who made bank divorcing a thai family.

[Tony125]

21 hours ago, digbeth said:

What if she was named in a relatives' will that was drafted before the marriage, but only received the land from the estate from the relative that had just died after you have married her? are you still entitled to half that? 

No, neither of you have to share land or cash received from a death or gifted to the spouse. Recently had a post where a Brit had parent die and wanted to know if he had to share the money with wife in a diviorce. Lawyer came on TV and stated that funds/property bequethed or gifted to either spouse is not considered marital property and therefore does not have to be split in a divorice. See "Sin Suan Tua "

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/TCCC-book5.pdf

Edited August 3, 2019 by Tony125

[Tony125]

21 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

So a usufruct agreement with just a farang's name on it whilst married to Thai wife would be null & void if divorce happens & the house would have to be sold & monies divided 50/50?

Diviorce law overules the Usufruct in a diviorce same if court considers a  prenup to be unfair to the spouse. The value of usufruct is if not legally married a diviorce court cannot intervene and if your wife dies her family cannot take control of the property and kick you out.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Tony125

[alacrity]

On 8/2/2019 at 3:56 PM, Tony125 said:

 lawyer is correctYour lawyer is giving you wrong advice. Property owned by either of you before marriage is not marital property  and therefore she does not have to share with you in a divorice. Also any property/cash that either of you recieve thru a wil or gift is not marital property and does not have  to be split 50/50. Only land or home purchased after  marriage is devided 50--50.  A usufruct or a prenup on property must be done at time of marriage. A usufruct is good if single  but a divorice  basically nullifies it as divorice court court will order 50/50 split of marital assets (property bought at time or after marriage)

That is probably why she never showed you land she owns as she knows she doesn't have to as you have no rights to property she owned before she married you.

The land has been gifted 'since' marriage so (if true) his lawyer is correct. Therefore a search of Land Office records could/should/would be worthwhile.

 

In concert the OP should file for divorce and not allow proceedings to drag out.

[Tony125]

4 minutes ago, alacrity said:

The land has been gifted 'since' marriage so (if true) his lawyer is correct. Therefore a search of Land Office records could/should/would be worthwhile.

 

In concert the OP should file for divorce and not allow proceedings to drag out.

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/TCCC-book5.pdf  

Read the above Thai law concerning property ownership. ESpecially 1471 Sin Suan Tua  #3 property recived after marriage thru a will or gift shall be considered same as #1 property owned by each spouse before the marriage

[RocketDog]

On 8/2/2019 at 7:08 AM, Peterw42 said:

OP, if you have a lawyer that says half the land belongs to you, why not ask your lawyer these questions.

 

Usually land held by a Thai wife is a non-marital asset and not subject to a 50/50 split in divorce, Usually the foreign husband signs a document to that effect when the land is acquired.

 

Not sure what a land office search would achieve as you will not be on any title in the capacity of a joint owner, you cant own land.

The OP stated that the land was received by his wife since they were married. Does that not qualify as something jointly acquired thus subject to the 50% rule?

 

I agree that a Thai attorney is needed, but I think the OP is just doing research and others on this forum are likely to have direct personal experience on this common topic.

 

It is my understanding though that in the end though the court system here can allocate the assets as they see fit. So in that case even a Thai attorney cannot guarantee an outcome based on prevailing law.  De facto versus De Jure.

 

It's actually true in American divorce law as well.

[RocketDog]

On 8/2/2019 at 4:44 PM, BritManToo said:

irrelevant, as any  agreement between a husband and wife can be cancelled be either party at any time.

Wow. That kinda makes any agreement of any type pointless. Isn't a premarital agreement just such a document? Are you implying that these are ignored by the legal system as well?

Seems illogical so might well be true

????

[meand]

i am not judging you dont know your exact spot, but man... i am a man i can take care of myself. i do not need her family land and she could probably really use it. man up bro. 

[ThomasThBKK]

13 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Wow. That kinda makes any agreement of any type pointless. Isn't a premarital agreement just such a document? Are you implying that these are ignored by the legal system as well?

Seems illogical so might well be true

????

Yes, contracts between wife and husband are nil during a marriage, not worth the paper on.

premartial agreements are premartial and count of course, everything after marriage doesn't really count as every contract can be nullified as long as no third party is negatively affected.

 

Don't get married.

[swerve]

43 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Yes, contracts between wife and husband are nil during a marriage, not worth the paper on.

premartial agreements are premartial and count of course, everything after marriage doesn't really count as every contract can be nullified as long as no third party is negatively affected.

 

Don't get married.

Well said.  Marriage is a kind of martial art.

[BritManToo]

59 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Isn't a premarital agreement just such a document?

No, because you aren't married when you sign the prenup.

(Isn't that obvious?)

[Handsome Gardener]

It is just absurd to ask those questions on a forum that will give you completely conflicting answers. I have seen numerous property statements on here from posters, many probably meaning well, others with an axe to grind, convinced they are correct, that are just completely wrong.

 

Forget forums - go and get a decent property lawyer, preferably recommended via word of mouth, they do exist.

[Handsome Gardener]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 9:56 AM, Tony125 said:

Your lawyer is giving you wrong advice. Property owned by either of you before marriage is not marital property  and therefore she does not have to share with you in a divorice. Also any property/cash that either of you recieve thru a wil or gift is not marital property and does not have  to be split 50/50. Only land or home purchased after  marriage is devided 50--50.  A usufruct or a prenup on property must be done at time of marriage. A usufruct is good if single  but a divorice  basically nullifies it as divorice court court will order 50/50 split of marital assets (property bought at time or after marriage)

That is probably why she never showed you land she owns as she knows she doesn't have to as you have no rights to property she owned before she married you.

You started off well but then slipped into old wives tales mode.

 

1) How is a usufruct and a marriage connected ? So if you buy a house 5 years after you get married, that usufruct is meaningless ?

 

2) A usufruct is NOT nullified by divorce else it wouldn't be worth the paper its written on. Quite the opposite, most foreigners would not want to live in the house after divorce and can use that usufruct to their advantage should the thai wife play hard ball. ie if the path to a 50-50 split doesn't run as smooth as I would like, I will be living on your land for the next 30 years !!

[Handsome Gardener]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:34 AM, Lone Ranger said:

So a usufruct agreement with just a farang's name on it whilst married to Thai wife would be null & void if divorce happens & the house would have to be sold & monies divided 50/50?

Incorrect

[Handsome Gardener]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:44 AM, BritManToo said:

irrelevant, as any  agreement between a husband and wife can be cancelled be either party at any time.

Garbage - and even if it could it could not possibly be legally binding on the other party else there would be a disclaimer on every single piece of legal documentation.

 

No binding legal document would ever be drawn up and every family lawyer and family court room could just pack up and go home.

 

 

 

 

[ThomasThBKK]

Garbage - and even if it could it could not possibly be legally binding on the other party else there would be a disclaimer on every single piece of legal documentation.

 

No binding legal document would ever be drawn up and every family lawyer and family court room could just pack up and go home.

 

 

 

 

You are wrong.

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/thai-marriage-and-contracts-between-husband-and-wife.html

 

Section 1469. Any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be avoided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith are not affected thereby.

 

 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[HHTel]

3 hours ago, RocketDog said:

The OP stated that the land was received by his wife since they were married. Does that not qualify as something jointly acquired thus subject to the 50% rule?

No it doesn't.  Any property willed or gifted to either party is not considered as sin som ros and therefore does not come under the 50-50 rule.

[RocketDog]

14 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Yes, contracts between wife and husband are nil during a marriage, not worth the paper on.

premartial agreements are premartial and count of course, everything after marriage doesn't really count as every contract can be nullified as long as no third party is negatively affected.

 

Don't get married.

Thanks. Good to know. I have to say that your last sentence is a point best taken.

[RocketDog]

11 hours ago, HHTel said:

No it doesn't.  Any property willed or gifted to either party is not considered as sin som ros and therefore does not come under the 50-50 rule.

I believe you are correct, as corroborated by other replies. Thank you; I learned something best kept in mind.

 

Actually, thus seems to be the general case in most states in the USA as well.

[ThomasThBKK]

40 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

I believe you are correct, as corroborated by other replies. Thank you; I learned something best kept in mind.

 

Actually, thus seems to be the general case in most states in the USA as well.

Yes, thai civil law is based on the german BGB,other parts are based on French/Uk law and thus very similar to pretty much every western country.