Scooter Wreck and Passport Seizure

[Solinvictus]

Hope you get it sorted out. It's a shady situation and let it be a learning experience for you. One thing too learn is how corrupt or shady institutions can be here including police. Mix that with the fact you are a foreigner in a vulnerable position at this point.  Best of luck to you.

 

It may be of interest to contact another police Stanton to inquire about this incident and if there is a different response or they say differently from what you experienced, then bring that up. Just an idea. Tourist police call center? Not receiving any paperwork is a sign of corruption for sure. They dont have to log or submit it.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, SteveK said:

I can pretty much assure you that you were not insured in the "Western sense" of being insured. You will have to pay to get this to go away, the quicker you do so, the smaller the bill will be. The only fly in the ointment here is that you now don't have your passport so they can take you for a lot more. A few scratches and damaged lights on a Thai scooter can be fixed for 1500 easily, ask to see the hospital bills for the injured party, I suspect that they are fictitious.

 

Agree and disagree.. 

 

Agreed - The Scooter is unlikely to be insured in the Western Sense. The Op mentioned scratches, so the costs minor.

 

Disagreed - The Op doesn't need to pay hospital bills or any compensation. The other kid was on the road illegally. The Op could ask to see the Kids licence - when they can't produce the Op can then ask the Police why they aren't charing the family of the kid for letting him ride illegally. 

 

The only thing they have on the Op is his passport - he needs to concentrate on getting that back, or claiming through his Embassy that the station is holding it illegally. 

[DaRoadrunner]

The rental company must have at least third party insurance or they would not be able to tax the scooter.

[intheheartoftheheart]

Correct. I think all rental companies have to have third-party. That is why I'd like to get them involved tomorrow. 

 

As far as I know, it is illegal to hold a passport. It is not mine. It is property of US Gov, etc. I just didn't want to push that option and start getting aggro until I had to.

 

Was hoping for a quieter solution if I just waited. Try insurance first. Let them settle.

 

Again, right or wrong, I have been around the block enough here and other SEA countries to know I will pay no matter what. I just want to get that number down. Stupid to throw out an anchor bid of 10,000 but I did. 

 

 

[SteveK]

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Disagreed - The Op doesn't need to pay hospital bills or any compensation. The other kid was on the road illegally. The Op could ask to see the Kids licence - when they can't produce the Op can then ask the Police why they aren't charing the family of the kid for letting him ride illegally. 

 

The only thing they have on the Op is his passport - he needs to concentrate on getting that back, or claiming through his Embassy that the station is holding it illegally. 

But the guy driving the other bike was a Thai. And this is Thailand. Did you miss that? It doesn't matter if the kid was drunk, underage, psychotic, pregnant or possessed by the devil, he will always be favoured in these matters.

[intheheartoftheheart]

Yes, the police translator telling me I had to bring the bike back for scientific analysis before trial (I have this in a Line message from her) was the moment I started getting suspicious. Considering I had just pulled it out of a weed covered lot.

 

I don't know how often they spin up CSI here for traffic accidents. Was a new one to me. 

 

 

[intheheartoftheheart]

Steve, I agree. I am a bit more cynical in these matters, having been abroad in various capacities most of my life.

 

The passport holding was a stupid mistake because I believed that they would photocopy and give back. Now they have leverage. Just trying to collect some leverage on my end.

[SteveK]

4 minutes ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Correct. I think all rental companies have to have third-party. That is why I'd like to get them involved tomorrow. 

 

As far as I know, it is illegal to hold a passport. It is not mine. It is property of US Gov, etc. I just didn't want to push that option and start getting aggro until I had to.

 

Was hoping for a quieter solution if I just waited. Try insurance first. Let them settle.

 

Again, right or wrong, I have been around the block enough here and other SEA countries to know I will pay no matter what. I just want to get that number down. Stupid to throw out an anchor bid of 10,000 but I did. 

 

 

Thai insurance is worthless. It is worth less than a dog turd. 

[Youlike]

Order your passport back of report them for keeping it....They had time enough to make a copy of it!

[SteveK]

Screw that just go to your embassy and report what you have said here and get a travel document to go home. When you get home, go to the press. Who the hell would want to go to Thailand after reading that?

Edited August 27, 2019 by SteveK

[Chivas]

1 hour ago, SteveK said:

I can pretty much assure you that you were not insured in the "Western sense" of being insured. You will have to pay to get this to go away, the quicker you do so, the smaller the bill will be. The only fly in the ointment here is that you now don't have your passport so they can take you for a lot more. A few scratches and damaged lights on a Thai scooter can be fixed for 1500 easily, ask to see the hospital bills for the injured party, I suspect that they are fictitious.

 

Of course, if you are planning on leaving soon you could request an emergency travel document from your embassy on the basis that your passport has been stolen by these people and then you could give them your middle finger.

 

Walk away, get your travel document and go home. They lose, you win.

Right up to the very point the OP returns for his next trip.....

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, SteveK said:

But the guy driving the other bike was a Thai. And this is Thailand. Did you miss that? It doesn't matter if the kid was drunk, underage, psychotic, pregnant or possessed by the devil, he will always be favoured in these matters.

 

This is common paranoia encountered by foreigners here who've listened to the guy sat next to them on the bar stool - We have clearly had different experiences of the way things work in Thailand.

 

In over 20 years here I've had a couple of accidents. Remaining polite but firm is the way not to get screwed over. Accommodating paranoia, getting into a panic that the 'faring is always wrong' is the quickest way to get the shaft. 

 

If a frightened foreigner is offering to pay his way out of situation he doesn't need to the police are hardly going to say no. Added to which the Police are likely to push for a little money, they nearly always do until they realise there is nothing in it for them and quickly loose interest. 

 

The BiB don't care about right and wrong, their apathy is overwhelming - they care about a payoff first, then the 'path of least resistance' second, and if that means the Foreigner is refusing to accept blame and not pay out some cash they will lose interest (unless the actions of the foreigner has caused them to lose face). 

 

I just don't get why so many foreigners are scared of the Police here, for the most part they are just a bunch of guys in a uniform chancing their luck for a little bit of cash and get bored quickly.

 

So, if the kid was underage, drunk etc... then the Op is in the right - If the Op had a good lawyer, he'd be out of this mess already. The issue is that lawyers here are equally as untrustworthy as the Police and hence finding a good one at the 11th hour is unlikely. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, SteveK said:

Thai insurance is worthless. It is worth less than a dog turd. 

 

You mean the compulsory insurance right? Por-ror-bor (not sure if its called the same for bike).

 

First Class insurance in Thailand is excellent and covers so many things. I've had tyre replaced (50% of value in the first year), a Windscreen replaced, as well as repairs from numerous 'supermarket' dents... in addition to 3 more major accidents - the insurance has always been supportive and paid out. 

 

I can't speak of the compulsory insurance - I've never seen it used, thus, I suspect you mean 'the compulsory insurance is worthless because you have first hand experience of making a claim against it. 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Yes, the police translator telling me I had to bring the bike back for scientific analysis before trial (I have this in a Line message from her) was the moment I started getting suspicious. Considering I had just pulled it out of a weed covered lot.

 

I don't know how often they spin up CSI here for traffic accidents. Was a new one to me. 

 

 

The 'scientific analysis' you speak of is a fairly normal process here when involved in an accident and the police wish to proportion blame. 

There is nothing scientific about it, they just look and see if the damage is at the front or side and make a decision based on that.

 

I had a similar encounter when I contested blame in a car accident. We had to take the vehicles to a different station the following day, someone from the Police Highways Dept (a pseudo crash investigator of sorts) stepped out of his station and took a look - said 50.50 and that was it (the other guy wasn't insured, so I accepted that my insurance would cover my damages only, but I wasn't willing to accept full blame as the guy was faking injuries and I didn't want to be left open to a claim). 

 

 

[scubascuba3]

Correct. I think all rental companies have to have third-party. That is why I'd like to get them involved tomorrow.   

As far as I know, it is illegal to hold a passport. It is not mine. It is property of US Gov, etc. I just didn't want to push that option and start getting aggro until I had to.

 

Was hoping for a quieter solution if I just waited. Try insurance first. Let them settle.

 

Again, right or wrong, I have been around the block enough here and other SEA countries to know I will pay no matter what. I just want to get that number down. Stupid to throw out an anchor bid of 10,000 but I did. 

 

 

 

The mandatory tax\insurance covers 30k of medical bills and 80k if not your fault. 

The other bike rider just needs to provide the bike reg to the hospital and they should deal with billing. If they don't have mandatory tax\insurance then that's illegal but the police here don't seem to take that seriously. They should pay their own costs.

 

As for getting the passport back. Maybe consider reporting it lost and get a temporary passport from your embassy.

 

If it's not your fault and the other party has no insurance I'd still expect you to have to pay the rental company for damages to the bike. There will be no insurance rep

 

 

 

[Matzzon]

6 hours ago, SteveK said:

But the guy driving the other bike was a Thai. And this is Thailand. Did you miss that? It doesn't matter if the kid was drunk, underage, psychotic, pregnant or possessed by the devil, he will always be favoured in these matters.

nope

[Tayaout]

You did not give yourself some more time on your visa. At best you will get fined when exiting Thailand or worst the police will detain, deport and blacklist you. 

 

Be aware that your plan of back and forth via airplane will probably fail and you will get denied sooner than later. You should get a tourist visa in a nearby country so at least you will get 60 days extendable. Be aware that some embassy like Vientiane don't like to see extension in your passport. 

 

The back and forth strategy still work if you use any land border except Poipet but is limited to 2 per calendar year. 

[BritManToo]

It's all a scam.

Just get emergency travel documents from your embassy and leave.

Don't come back, plenty of other countries to visit, some where the police aren't crooks.

[baansgr]

7 hours ago, madmen said:

yawn. As usual big bwana can never ever be wrong in an accident.. Always a Thai scam

 

yet to read a single thread to the contrary

Obviously you have never been involved in a motor accident in Thailand....

[baansgr]

7 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Correct. I think all rental companies have to have third-party. That is why I'd like to get them involved tomorrow. 

 

As far as I know, it is illegal to hold a passport. It is not mine. It is property of US Gov, etc. I just didn't want to push that option and start getting aggro until I had to.

 

Was hoping for a quieter solution if I just waited. Try insurance first. Let them settle.

 

Again, right or wrong, I have been around the block enough here and other SEA countries to know I will pay no matter what. I just want to get that number down. Stupid to throw out an anchor bid of 10,000 but I did. 

 

 

Its not illegal for passports to be held if a criminal investigation is ongoing and their is a possible flight risk

[BritManToo]

49 minutes ago, baansgr said:

Its not illegal for passports to be held if a criminal investigation is ongoing and their is a possible flight risk

Medical bill would be a civil case.

[intheheartoftheheart]

I will let everyone know how this plays out over the next few days/week. 

 

 

[essox essox]

10 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Frazzled? - Tired or Drunk?

 

If it was not your fault, why would you be expected to pay anything?

 

If you were not drunk and not at fault, play firm. You don't have to pay anyone anything. They can try and get money from you, they can use threats etc... but in the end not much can be done other than create an inconvenience for you. The reason they expect or think you will pay is because other Westerners have wet their pants and paid up.

 

Trial over a damaged scooter ?? thats incredibly unlikely.

 

Report to your embassy that the Police have confiscated your passport and are shaking you down. 

bumps and scrapes ARE ALWAYS farangs fault....

[BestB]

10 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Thanks Richard and Steve. 

 

They took my passport to 'make a copy' and then didn't give it back.

 

I offered 10k to the family today. They weren't happy with that number. I can try 20k as well.

 

Is it stupid to involve the insurance company from the scooter rental company?

 

 

 

 

Firstly , this is what you should have done in the first place , call insurance. However what made you think there is insurance ? Usually there is not one. Also keep in mind , even if have one, but you do not have thai DL, insurance will not pay anything as many policies stipulate thai dl.

 

about passport, this is normal procedure despite what many like think as you are a flight risk.

 

do not forget you will also be liable for your bike as well.

 

if you say you not at fault, why pay? Demand they pay.

 

have police charged you with reckless driving? 

 

In the end of the day it’s a civil matter unless you were under influence or without proper DL 

[thaiguzzi]

10 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

They immediately showed up at the station with bandages after the accident. Within 30 mins or so after the cops immediately took my scooter away in a truck. It was actually fine aside from scratches. The cops never took a police report from me at the time. Only when I went back.

 

Today the family showed up with 7k of hospital bills. Said they need to return tomorrow for more checkups.

 

I have an IDP and US license. The kid that was driving the scooter does not likely have a license. No one asked, but that will be my next question. He's pretty young. Grandma actually had to show hers to get their scooter out of impound which was interesting.

 

Scooter has minor cosmetic damage. I need a new light in the front. They need various pieces of plastic. 

 

I can only assume the scooter I rented was insured. It was from a family business with 30+ scooters for rent. 

 

 

 

 

This would have already been sorted, outside of a tourist ghetto.

Hospital bills = zero payment. Unless he's broken an arm, wrist, leg. Superficial cuts and bruises is free treatment.

Scooter damage = 1-2k if you cannot get insurance co's involved.

Total payment "out of the goodness of your heart" and for "future good kharma" = 5k max. Total.

They are trying it on because you are the Felang and the place is HH.

One of the benefits of living in Nakon Nowhere is that the police are neutral, and if anything, in a case like this, more on your side, if you were genuinely the innocent party.

Me personally, because they wanted 7k for "hospital bills" (which are either free or 30 Baht), i'd fight it and try and give the greedy ba##ards as little as possible.

Karma is a bitch.

[BestB]

9 hours ago, intheheartoftheheart said:

Correct. I think all rental companies have to have third-party. That is why I'd like to get them involved tomorrow. 

 

As far as I know, it is illegal to hold a passport. It is not mine. It is property of US Gov, etc. I just didn't want to push that option and start getting aggro until I had to.

 

Was hoping for a quieter solution if I just waited. Try insurance first. Let them settle.

 

Again, right or wrong, I have been around the block enough here and other SEA countries to know I will pay no matter what. I just want to get that number down. Stupid to throw out an anchor bid of 10,000 but I did. 

 

 

Most do not have insurance , the only insurance bike has is a compulsory one which pays from memory up to 15000 -18000 in medical bills

[Matzzon]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

some where the police aren't crooks

What? Tell me, tell me!

[robblok]

20 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

This would have already been sorted, outside of a tourist ghetto.

Hospital bills = zero payment. Unless he's broken an arm, wrist, leg. Superficial cuts and bruises is free treatment.

Scooter damage = 1-2k if you cannot get insurance co's involved.

Total payment "out of the goodness of your heart" and for "future good kharma" = 5k max. Total.

They are trying it on because you are the Felang and the place is HH.

One of the benefits of living in Nakon Nowhere is that the police are neutral, and if anything, in a case like this, more on your side, if you were genuinely the innocent party.

Me personally, because they wanted 7k for "hospital bills" (which are either free or 30 Baht), i'd fight it and try and give the greedy ba##ards as little as possible.

Karma is a bitch.

Same here in Nothaburi, had a motorcycle accident was ruled that both were to blame and responsible for own damages. It was true i was in the wrong but so was the truck driver. The police is pretty fair where i live. Contrary to the bar stool wisdom on this forum.

[scubascuba3]

Most do not have insurance , the only insurance bike has is a compulsory one which pays from memory up to 15000 -18000 in medical bills

30-80k

[RideJocky]

If it was clearly not your fault, pay nothing.

The only time I would pay if it were not my fault would be at the scene just to make it go away quickly. Once the police are involved, let the insurance handle it.

If it was arguably your fault, or if the fault is shared, whether or not the other driver is licensed, drunk or uninsured makes no difference to assigning guilt.

That the other driver was driving illegally is of no consequence to your case.




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