Source cerificate needed for 65k for retirement ext?

[mran66]

Planning to convert from 800k to 65k/mo for next year extension if possible.

 

In addition to relevant documents from bank for the 65K a month FTT for a year, is there any requirement to provide proof of what the source of the funds is (e.g pension certificate or something like that)?

 

Or is it enough to simply show that money has come, does not matter what the source is?

 

Applying in Jomtien immigration, Pattaya.

[merijn]

I don't know the specifics for Pattaya but normally they don't need the see the source of the income.

They are only interested to see the evidence of the intentional transfers into your Thai bank account of at least 65 K a month.

[gk10002000]

4 hours ago, merijn said:

I don't know the specifics for Pattaya but normally they don't need the see the source of the income.

They are only interested to see the evidence of the intentional transfers into your Thai bank account of at least 65 K a month.

Yes, the current implementation is based on the fact that they could not or would not trust or believe or understand what the proof might be, so they defaulted to now just mandating that one show 65k monthly transfers in to Thailand from abroad.   Now this in no way proves one has sustainable or any type of income for that matter.  One could simple be spending down a lump sum, or something like that.  So this proves absolutely nothing about income as even the words of the law state which say things like Pensions, rents, etc, but at the moment meets the criteria.

[mtls2005]

While there have been one or two reports of IOs asking for supporting documentation - often it is unclear in these reports if the individual is simply handing these over unprompted - the only proof is in the form of a certified bank letter attesting to monthly qualifying foreign transfers (which may or may not included the accompanying Credit Advice Receipts detailing each transfer),

 

The law/rules simply mention "income", and do not in anyway limit that income to a "pension", nor does it in anyway have to provide to be sustainable forever. That'd be silly.

 

Quoting...

 

"Evidence showing income, such as pension or interest received or dividend received"

 

the keyword is "income", the source of which could, but is not limited to the three examples given. It could be other sources (IRA/Roth, annuity, capital gains, rent received, subsidy, lottery/gambling winnings, inheritance, to name just a few), but perhaps not a result of illegal activities.
 

 

We're only granted a one year (future) extension based on our past twelve months "performance". It's not like we're being granted PR or citizenship. If we've failed to live up to the requirements we won't get an extension next year.

 

All that said, best to check in with your office to make sure you understand their current documentation requirements.

 

Yes, I carry back-up showing the source of my "income".

 

 

 

 

 

[Ebumbu]

12 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

One could simple be spending down a lump sum, or something like that.  So this proves absolutely nothing about income as even the words of the law state which say things like Pensions, rents, etc, but at the moment meets the criteria.

 

Hypothetically, do you know whether anyone has actually succeeded at spending down a lump sum as "income"? 

 

 

[Jingthing]

The only honest answer to this is --

 

They might ask for it

They have every legal right to ask for it

They probably won't ask for it

It's a good idea to have it if asked

If you don't have it then you might just need to sweat a little bit.

[Jaxxper]

16 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

 

Hypothetically, do you know whether anyone has actually succeeded at spending down a lump sum as "income"? 

 

 

I think too early to tell..... clearly some are subsidising their Thb 65 k with savings, but who cares as long as the Thb 65 k turns up from overseas each month as an international transfer.

[chilly07]

Pattaya is very interested in the source and amount of income even for a Marriage Extension and question you on this. In my case they accepted P60s and Dep of Work and Pensions statements which is the same data I presented to the UK Embassy the previous year for the Income letter. Apart from the Bank Certification it is best to be prepared with source of income data especially for a retirement extension.

The 3 recalcitrant Embassies should restore income certification and stop this nonsense!

[wgdanson]

7 minutes ago, chilly07 said:

The 3 recalcitrant Embassies should restore income certification and stop this nonsense!

Do you mean, in the case of the British Embassy, certify that some false claims of income are true?

[fceligoj]

I just recently did my Retirement Extension.  I had my 1-year Bank Statement, my bank book and a copy thereof, etc.  Of course, the I/O looked like he was getting a migraine when I first told him, I was going to do a 65K per month extension.  He gathered all my papers, gave them back to me and we went to see the supervisor who handled the review and assessment. The IMM Supervisor as she reviewed my information, asked if I was retired and from where did the funds originate.  Since I am an American Citizen, I told her my pensions were from the US Social Security Administration and my employer.  Asked if I had information showing that (even if it was in English), which I did.  She was very pleased that I had all that with me.  She said, next year if I would make a list by month, the international transfers, entitled "My Income", they would greatly appreciate the effort, makes their job easier.  So she made one using a plain piece of paper and a pencil.  After she was done, she took my papers and her homemade list back to the I/O and told him I was good to go.  HE NEVER LOOKED AT ANYTHING except my copy of my passport where I was missing a copy of one page which he made a copy (did not request that I go have a copy made.)  The longest part was the I/O putting all the stamps in my passport, the extension application, etc.  So it was totally painless.

[mran66]

Pattaya is very interested in the source and amount of income even for a Marriage Extension and question you on this. In my case they accepted P60s and Dep of Work and Pensions statements which is the same data I presented to the UK Embassy the previous year for the Income letter. Apart from the Bank Certification it is best to be prepared with source of income data especially for a retirement extension.
The 3 recalcitrant Embassies should restore income certification and stop this nonsense!

Oh okay....so not so straightforward then...I would be very interested to hear if anyone has managed to get retirement extension approved in Pattaya with 65k/mo approach without actually having any pension income nor documents to show such (be them fake or real).

I don't have any, and to date done my extensions with 800k approach without any issues as income is not required.

Now, with tighter requirements for that approach, I would change to 65k/mo approach next year (December) if that would be possible without any pension documents, just with bank transfer statements, possibly supplemented by my personal saving/wealth statement from my overseas bank. Problem for people like me maybe that in these days, on an individual year, capital-based income may be positive or negative. Question then is how do they consider that and whether certain amount of wealth would be considered enough even without (or even with negative) actual income.

I'm sure I am not the only one with this situation in Thailand or even in Pattaya and thus would be good information.

Unless some actual experience otherwise show in coming months, seems I better be prepared to continue to do with the 800k approach in future too...

[KhunBENQ]

There is always a chance that you are asked for some supporting documents.

Recently I read about a German guy with a certificate of income from the consulate.

And still he was asked to show account statements or the like from Germany.

 

German consul(ate) always required some proof of income to give the certificate.

A friend in Jomtien was never asked about supporting documents at immigration.

But who knows what will happen in January on his next extension.

[lungbing]

Before issuing the letter the UK Embassy used to ask for original documents supporting the claim. 

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, fceligoj said:

I just recently did my Retirement Extension.  I had my 1-year Bank Statement, my bank book and a copy thereof, etc.  Of course, the I/O looked like he was getting a migraine when I first told him, I was going to do a 65K per month extension.  He gathered all my papers, gave them back to me and we went to see the supervisor who handled the review and assessment. The IMM Supervisor as she reviewed my information, asked if I was retired and from where did the funds originate.  Since I am an American Citizen, I told her my pensions were from the US Social Security Administration and my employer.  Asked if I had information showing that (even if it was in English), which I did.  She was very pleased that I had all that with me.  She said, next year if I would make a list by month, the international transfers, entitled "My Income", they would greatly appreciate the effort, makes their job easier.  So she made one using a plain piece of paper and a pencil.  After she was done, she took my papers and her homemade list back to the I/O and told him I was good to go.  HE NEVER LOOKED AT ANYTHING except my copy of my passport where I was missing a copy of one page which he made a copy (did not request that I go have a copy made.)  The longest part was the I/O putting all the stamps in my passport, the extension application, etc.  So it was totally painless.

Thanks for the report.

It sounds from that that for applicants at Jomtien without embassy letters for the income method (or combo method assuming they're accepting them) that asking about source should not be a surprise.

[theoldgit]

Before issuing the letter the UK Embassy used to ask for original documents supporting the claim. 

Then they changed to allow for applications via email accompanied by an emailed scanned copy of the supporting evidence.

[gk10002000]

6 hours ago, Ebumbu said:

 

Hypothetically, do you know whether anyone has actually succeeded at spending down a lump sum as "income"? 

 

 

I would take any reasonably sized bet that many people are currently taking that loophole now in order to maintain their visa extensions.  65k a month transferred in allows them to stay, and not tie up 800k baht which frankly, many people can not come up with.  In general, yes, I know several people here in the state that do NOT invest their monies in anything that generates income, and they simply are spending down their 401ks

[gk10002000]

5 hours ago, fceligoj said:

I just recently did my Retirement Extension.  I had my 1-year Bank Statement, my bank book and a copy thereof, etc.  Of course, the I/O looked like he was getting a migraine when I first told him, I was going to do a 65K per month extension.  He gathered all my papers, gave them back to me and we went to see the supervisor who handled the review and assessment. The IMM Supervisor as she reviewed my information, asked if I was retired and from where did the funds originate.  Since I am an American Citizen, I told her my pensions were from the US Social Security Administration and my employer.  Asked if I had information showing that (even if it was in English), which I did.  She was very pleased that I had all that with me.  She said, next year if I would make a list by month, the international transfers, entitled "My Income", they would greatly appreciate the effort, makes their job easier.  So she made one using a plain piece of paper and a pencil.  After she was done, she took my papers and her homemade list back to the I/O and told him I was good to go.  HE NEVER LOOKED AT ANYTHING except my copy of my passport where I was missing a copy of one page which he made a copy (did not request that I go have a copy made.)  The longest part was the I/O putting all the stamps in my passport, the extension application, etc.  So it was totally painless.

of course at some point the Thais and I think many or most offices are going to be asking more and more people about where the money comes from and whether you work, or whatever.  The reason is that even though the transfers now must be showing that they come from overseas, that does not mean that the money originated from overseas.  The Thais are more than aware that you might still be working in Thailand, then transferring money overseas, then back into Thailand again.  They will be curious as to the actual source of the money.  Many things can happen

[jacko45k]

15 hours ago, chilly07 said:

The 3 recalcitrant Embassies should restore income certification and stop this nonsense.

They did not have income verification, it was outside their capabilities, and that was what was asked of them. I never felt the Stat Decs nor affidavits were sufficient but it was good while it lasted.  

[Lemonltr]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Thanks for the report.

It sounds from that that for applicants at Jomtien without embassy letters for the income method (or combo method assuming they're accepting them) that asking about source should not be a surprise.

Unfortunately the poster did not say he applied at Jomtien. The IO's vary so much its not much help unless they state which office they applied at. 

[rawhod]

At the end of May I did my Retirement extension at Chiang Mai Immigration using the British Embassy income letter that I got at the end of December 2018. No problems, but the IO did ask for proof of source of my income in the UK. Luckily I had copies of the documents which I had submitted to the Embassy for my letter, which he accepted.

[mtls2005]

20 hours ago, fceligoj said:

She said, next year if I would make a list by month, the international transfers, entitled "My Income", they would greatly appreciate the effort, makes their job easier.  So she made one using a plain piece of paper and a pencil. 

 

This is pretty silly.

 

The certified bank letter details the monthly qualifying foreign transfers on one page.

 

There is no need for bank books, copies, (yes, have them on hand obviously), or supporting documentation from pension providers. These documents will not be understood, are in a foreign language, with varying amounts of foreign currencies and can easily be faked.

 

The bank letter is official, blue stamp, signature, all in Thai. It may include the associated Credit Advice Receipts. These have been used by many, many, many people as reported here this year.

 

You may also have to get a same-day account ownership letter.

[tgeezer]

Nobody can be sure what some Immigration Officer may ask for, what I would bet is that the source of income should be of no interest to them.   I am astonished that some people call drawing down savings a loophole! 

If one is drawing down savings the simplest thing to do is to transfer Bt800,000 once only.  In my case that saves me £250 per year in charges and produces about the same in interest, a gain of £500. 

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Nobody can be sure what some Immigration Officer may ask for, what I would bet is that the source of income should be of no interest to them.   I am astonished that some people call drawing down savings a loophole! 

Yes, it is strange, looking at UK numbers,

roughly;-

5,765,000 workers still have some sort of defined benefit pension, and reducing, where these are company pensions, rather than .Gov posts a fair percentage are transferring to "drawdown pension arrgts" tempted by current large transfer value numbers.

About 11,000,000 have DC pensions, a large proportion of may opt for "drawdown" .

About 3,000,000 have no such pension provision 

and you have the people who may sell there business on, or lease it to fund their retirement.

They either buy an annuity (rates are still low historically), or go into drawdown.

Normally combined with investments.

 

So for the majority, spending down a lump sum from a pension arrgt or invested tax free lump sum, is the way the pension system works in the UK now (excluding the State pension of course), and is becoming more prevalent!

 

I can understand if they ask to show some proportion of legit source, but not trying to match numbers. 

 

Does the income have to be sustainable? as the extension is only for 12 months, I would not have thought so. If you did show sustainable income, the system can't recognize it anyway....

 

 

 

 

[Max69xl]

On 9/6/2019 at 7:33 PM, mran66 said:

Oh okay....so not so straightforward then...I would be very interested to hear if anyone has managed to get retirement extension approved in Pattaya with 65k/mo approach without actually having any pension income nor documents to show such (be them fake or real).

I don't have any, and to date done my extensions with 800k approach without any issues as income is not required.

Now, with tighter requirements for that approach, I would change to 65k/mo approach next year (December) if that would be possible without any pension documents, just with bank transfer statements, possibly supplemented by my personal saving/wealth statement from my overseas bank. Problem for people like me maybe that in these days, on an individual year, capital-based income may be positive or negative. Question then is how do they consider that and whether certain amount of wealth would be considered enough even without (or even with negative) actual income.

I'm sure I am not the only one with this situation in Thailand or even in Pattaya and thus would be good information.

Unless some actual experience otherwise show in coming months, seems I better be prepared to continue to do with the 800k approach in future too...

If you come from the UK,US or Australia you won't get an income letter anymore,and the new requirements from 20190101 (in Jomtien Immigration) when using the >65k monthly are a bank letter from your Thai bank showing that your transfers are international and copies from the bankbook showing every transfer as foreign = FTT.

This is important and are not negotiable at Jomtien Immigration.

Then it depends on which bank you have. Bangkok Bank in Jomtien (about 80m from Immigration) learned quickly how to produce the type of bank letter Immigration demanded. I think Kasikorn Bank in Jomtien did the same. I have heard about other banks where the bank codes differs from BB and K-Bank. Maybe other posters knows more about that.

Personally I think the >800k in the bank method is easier,if you have the money, of course.

From March 1, the money has to be in the bank 2 months before and 3 months after. After exactly 90 days you need to show Immigration you still have >800k in your bank. They call it a 90 days check. 2 signed (by yourself) copies from the passport is needed, the info page and the last extension. Then 2 signed (by yourself) copies from the bankbook (updated), the first page with the name and the last page showing the deposit. That's all. After 3 months you can't go below 400k for the rest of the year. That's also a new requirement from March 1. 

[mran66]

Nobody can be sure what some Immigration Officer may ask for, what I would bet is that the source of income should be of no interest to them.   I am astonished that some people call drawing down savings a loophole! 
If one is drawing down savings the simplest thing to do is to transfer Bt800,000 once only.  In my case that saves me £250 per year in charges and produces about the same in interest, a gain of £500. 

With old rules for 800k yes. But now with the new rules for 800/400k I was considering change, though understand has some costs. But if can not with low risk, then stay with 800/400k.

That's why asking

[Max69xl]

39 minutes ago, mran66 said:

With old rules for 800k yes. But now with the new rules for 800/400k I was considering change, though understand has some costs. But if can not with low risk, then stay with 800/400k.

That's why asking

The new requirements for >65k monthly from 20190101 isn't that hard to understand. They only concern 3 countries,the UK,US and Australia. Those 3 countries embassies don't issue income letters starting 20190101,while the rest of them still do. That's why Immigration demands bank letters from the Thai bank showing international transfers,and copies from the bankbook showing every transfer as foreign = FTT. These requirements are not negotiable at Immigration. Because of this,some do have problems with transfers,but that's another story. The >800k method is easier if you can afford it. 

[Ebumbu]

On 9/6/2019 at 2:45 AM, chilly07 said:

Pattaya is very interested in the source and amount of income even for a Marriage Extension and question you on this.

 

The agent is your Gandalf. 

[Max69xl]

On 9/6/2019 at 4:16 PM, Ebumbu said:

 

Hypothetically, do you know whether anyone has actually succeeded at spending down a lump sum as "income"? 

 

 

The answer is no one.

[Max69xl]

On 9/6/2019 at 8:11 PM, Jingthing said:

Thanks for the report.

It sounds from that that for applicants at Jomtien without embassy letters for the income method (or combo method assuming they're accepting them) that asking about source should not be a surprise.

At Jomtien Immigration there's no problem with the >65k monthly method as long as you have the bank letter showing your transfers are international, and that every transfer in the bankbook shows foreign transfers = FTT. 

And, yes, Jomtien Immigration accepts the combo method. 

[wgdanson]

On 9/6/2019 at 5:05 PM, fceligoj said:

I just recently did my Retirement Extension.  I had my 1-year Bank Statement, my bank book and a copy thereof, etc.  Of course, the I/O looked like he was getting a migraine when I first told him, I was going to do a 65K per month extension.  He gathered all my papers, gave them back to me and we went to see the supervisor who handled the review and assessment. The IMM Supervisor as she reviewed my information, asked if I was retired and from where did the funds originate.  Since I am an American Citizen, I told her my pensions were from the US Social Security Administration and my employer.  Asked if I had information showing that (even if it was in English), which I did.  She was very pleased that I had all that with me.  She said, next year if I would make a list by month, the international transfers, entitled "My Income", they would greatly appreciate the effort, makes their job easier.  So she made one using a plain piece of paper and a pencil.  After she was done, she took my papers and her homemade list back to the I/O and told him I was good to go.  HE NEVER LOOKED AT ANYTHING except my copy of my passport where I was missing a copy of one page which he made a copy (did not request that I go have a copy made.)  The longest part was the I/O putting all the stamps in my passport, the extension application, etc.  So it was totally painless.

Did you not have to have a Bank letter identifying all the monthly deposits as FTTs?

Which IO was this at please?