Delay Brexit? I'd rather be dead in a ditch, says PM Johnson

[StreetCowboy]

Just now, Forethat said:

And in what way would "leave" (with or without a deal) prelude us from rejoining again at some point in the future should the majority wish it? I thought that would be obvious, but apparently not.

 

Some people...

My prediction for the future, with timings

 

UK leaves EU eventually

Scotland leaves UK quickly

Scotland joins EU almost immediately

England joins EU eventually, when they can meet the criteria

 

Remember, you read it here firsr

[7by7]

1 minute ago, Forethat said:

And in what way would "leave" (with or without a deal) prelude us from rejoining again at some point in the future should the majority wish it? I thought that would be obvious, but apparently not.

 

Some people...

 It wouldn't.

 

But if we left and rejoined we would not do so on the same favourable terms we have now; we would lose, for example, the rebate.

 

In addition, among other things we would have to commit to joining Schengen and the Euro.

 

Some people...

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

My prediction for the future, with timings

 

UK leaves EU eventually

Scotland leaves UK quickly

Scotland joins EU almost immediately

England joins EU eventually, when they can meet the criteria

 

Remember, you read it here firsr

 

What about Northern Ireland and Wales?

[elliss]

16 minutes ago, Forethat said:

And in what way would "leave" (with or without a deal) prelude us from rejoining again at some point in the future should the majority wish it? I thought that would be obvious, but apparently not.

 

Some people...

 

          EU , would set conditions for re-entry , including  accepting euro , end of gbp. etc..

            Thats  only a starter ...

         

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by elliss

[elliss]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

What about Northern Ireland and Wales?

 

 They are just a burden on the UK taxpayer . 

 

[Slip]

20 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Come again?

You suggest that the terms of the remain option be completely open but the leave should be qualified..? 

 

Here's a ballot paper that reflects your view in an unbiased fashion:

1. Leave with the negotiated deal.
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Remain on current and future conditions (i.e. we don't give a flying toss what the EU decides to do)
4. Remain on current conditions but call a referendum every freaking time the EU conditions are changed (e.g. new laws are introduced) to make sure the electorate are ok.

 

Some people...

You are not thinking this through.  What the idea seven 7s brought up would do is give the moderates (and therefore the majority) 2 bites at the cherry because of the two votes concept.  Broadly speaking, No deal supporters would vote no deal, deal; remainers would vote remain, deal: and soft brexit types would vote deal, then go one way or the other.  Having said that perhaps it would only work if voters were obliged to choose 2 options to validate their vote.  I daresay no-one would be entirely happy, but it may allow some movement towards consensus.  More than we have now at least.

[Forethat]

6 minutes ago, elliss said:

 

          EU , would set conditions for re-entry , including  accepting euro , end of gbp. etc..

            Thats  only a starter ...

         

 

And...?

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, Forethat said:

And in what way would "leave" (with or without a deal) prelude us from rejoining again at some point in the future should the majority wish it? I thought that would be obvious, but apparently not.

 

Some people...

What might also preclude us from rejoining would be the state of the economy after we've trashed what left of out manufacturing capacity, the finance industry has moved en-masse to the rest of europe and the government has spent billions it hasn't got trying to support all those collapsing injuries.

 

We could be the new Greece  

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Slip said:

You are not thinking this through.  What the idea seven 7s brought up would do is give the moderates (and therefore the majority) 2 bites at the cherry because of the two votes concept.  Broadly speaking, No deal supporters would vote no deal, deal; remainers would vote remain, deal: and soft brexit types would vote deal, then go one way or the other.  Having said that perhaps it would only work if voters were obliged to choose 2 options to validate their vote.  I daresay no-one would be entirely happy, but it may allow some movement towards consensus.  More than we have now at least.

You and seven 7s make a great tag team. You really think alike, amazing.

[Forethat]

1 minute ago, Slip said:

You are not thinking this through.  What the idea seven 7s brought up would do is give the moderates (and therefore the majority) 2 bites at the cherry because of the two votes concept.  Broadly speaking, No deal supporters would vote no deal, deal; remainers would vote remain, deal: and soft brexit types would vote deal, then go one way or the other.  Having said that perhaps it would only work if voters were obliged to choose 2 options to validate their vote.  I daresay no-one would be entirely happy, but it may allow some movement towards consensus.  More than we have now at least.

I'm probably the ONLY one thinking this through.

I am giving everyone two bites at the cherry - why should remainers be restricted to one option when the outcome of their decision is clearly not static?

[tebee]

Is Johnson going to be dead in a ditch because of those bulldozers he promised to lay down in front of to prevent the third Heathrow runway?

[beautifulthailand99]

Johnson saying he will get a deal on the 16th and 17th - what's the plan then ?

 

 

 

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

Is Johnson going to be dead in a ditch because of those bulldozers he promised to lay down in front of to prevent the third Heathrow runway?

Did you think he was talking literally? ????????????

[Slip]

19 minutes ago, Forethat said:

I'm probably the ONLY one thinking this through.

I am giving everyone two bites at the cherry - why should remainers be restricted to one option when the outcome of their decision is clearly not static?

That is why I said they (the powers that be) would probably have to oblige people to choose 2 options.  Obviously those elements at either extreme would probably only want to choose one, but by making all voters choose two, both extremes would likely have to compromise. 

EDIT: Just to add- the problem here from a hard brexiteer viewpoint is that they know they don't have a majority in the country to support their stance.  The leave/ remain stats these days are arguable, it could go either way, but only a tiny percentage support a hard brexit.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Slip

[Forethat]

16 minutes ago, tebee said:

What might also preclude us from rejoining would be the state of the economy after we've trashed what left of out manufacturing capacity, the finance industry has moved en-masse to the rest of europe and the government has spent billions it hasn't got trying to support all those collapsing injuries.

 

We could be the new Greece  

Greece..!? Have you raised the question on forum.greecevisa.com ??

[tebee]

4 hours ago, Forethat said:

Greece..!? Have you raised the question on forum.greecevisa.com ??

Well, of course not forum.greecevisa.com doesn't exist because we don't need visas to go to Greece - we all have freedom of moment - remember ?

[tebee]

5 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Johnson saying he will get a deal on the 16th and 17th - what's the plan then ?

 

 

 

 

May's deal but with the backstop just for NI - DUp thrown under that red bus... 

[Forethat]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Well, of course not forum.greecevisa.com doesn't exist because we don't need visas to go to Greece - we all have freedom of moment - remember ?

"We" being who? I don't need a visa to go to Thailand either, yet forum.thaivisa.com exists. In addition my daughter cannot go to Greece without a visa. Heck, I can't go there myself without a visa for longer than a 90 day tourist trip.

 

You probably didn't think that through before you clicked "Submit Reply"...?

Edited September 6, 2019 by Forethat

[bannork]

6 hours ago, vogie said:

Did you think he was talking literally? ????????????

Oh I do hope so.

[bristolboy]

6 hours ago, Forethat said:

Ehh, no. We don't get a "rebate". The word "rebate" is used to define the difference that is made up by our VAT base compared to our GDP. In real money we are STILL one of the highest contributors.

 

I know that you don't understand this, but that's ok. That's the typical problem when discussing these issues with a remainer. You just don't have the knowledge required.

 

If the UK would leave and rejoin in the future, the exact same membership fee calculation would be used, otherwise we wouldn't even consider rejoining. Whether they decide to call it 'rebate' or 'kerfufflecountingerroradjustmenttoavoidunfairmembershipfee' I just don't care. And it's also irrelevant. What IS relevant is that we wouldn't end up paying more than we do now (we pay more than every country but Germany).

 

Some people...

How in the world did you ever come up with the notion that "rebate" is confined to use only with reference to VAT? Not only is your objection remarkably and pointlessly petty, it's actually wrong.  I have yet to see one defintion of the word that restricts its use to VAT refunds. So if there is a typical misunderstanding at issue here, it's not on the part of remainers. And then there's this:

The UK 'rebate' on the EU budget: An explanation of the abatement and other correction mechanisms

18-02-2016

 

The UK 'abatement', 'rebate' or 'correction' is the ad hoc mechanism that is applied to lower the UK's contribution to the EU budget, by reimbursing 66% of the country's budgetary imbalance (the difference between payments and receipts). In 2014, the rebate amounted to almost €6.1 billion, reducing the UK's national contribution by 35% – to €11.34 billion – leaving it the fourth largest national contribution. All Member States but the UK cover the costs of the rebate. Introduced in 1985, it has remained unchanged in its basic concept, and is best understood with reference to some features of the UK economy and of the common budget at that time.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?reference=EPRS_BRI(2016)577973

And this:

 

UK REBATE

 

The UK rebate (or UK correction) is a financial mechanism that reduces the United Kingdom's contribution to the EU budget in effect since 1985. It is a complex calculation which equates to a reduction of approximately 66% of the UK's net contribution – the amount paid by the UK into the EU budget less receipts from the EU budget.^[1][2] Based on a net contribution of €11.7 (£9.6) billion in 2016, the UK Treasury estimated the 2017 rebate amounted to €6.6 (£5.6) billion reducing the ultimate UK contribution for the 2017 budget to €10.4 (£8.9) billion.^[1][3] Although the rebate is not set in the EU treaties, it is negotiated as part of the Multiannual Financial Framework (MFF) every seven years and must be unanimously agreed.^[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate

Edited September 6, 2019 by bristolboy

[Thairealist]

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

It's not my idea, but I have posted the most rational suggestion for that ballot before; but here it is again.

 

Three options on the ballot paper.

1. Leave with the negotiated deal.
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Remain.

Each voter marks their first and second choices. If no option has 50% plus one of the first choices, then the option with the fewest first choices is eliminated and the second choices on those papers allocated to the chosen option to produce a winner.

 

 

 

 

 You seem to prefer another referendum, as opposed to a General Election.

Can you then please confirm if it is true, that in a General election, you must be a British citizen, or a citizen of a British commonwealth country, or  bizarrely a citizen of the Irish republic.

But in a British referendum, to determine the direction of OUR country! citizens of every E.U. Country who happen to be living in the U.K will also be allowed to vote. This of course would include those thousand of E.U. Citizens who take it upon themselves to demonstrate in OUR capital city.If this is correct, then it would seem to me to be fundamentally wrong, and will never be acceptable to the British people.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Thairealist

[Thairealist]

17 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Whereas Johnson only has the one; Cummings.

 

As opposed to Olly Robbins, the instructor of Treacherous T.May.

Who surprisingly you never criticised. 

[StreetCowboy]

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

What about Northern Ireland and Wales?

I'm not going to give you the winner of the National either, after that cheek.

[Thairealist]

16 hours ago, tebee said:

What might also preclude us from rejoining would be the state of the economy after we've trashed what left of out manufacturing capacity, the finance industry has moved en-masse to the rest of europe and the government has spent billions it hasn't got trying to support all those collapsing injuries.

 

We could be the new Greece  

 

What manufacturing capacity? Have you not noticed that over the last 30yrs much of it has already been transferred to Eastern Europe, much to the detriment of our own workers. And to add salt to the wound, we have been paying for this economic catastrophe through our charitable contributions to Brussels.

[Forethat]

22 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Probably going to be speechless after today. Rumour has it that he's just fired Dominic Cummings.

I am convinced you'll bring us some news about this. Hopefully, it'll be today!

 

PS.

Haven't seen any of those rumours make the headlines yet. I wonder why?

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Thairealist said:

 

 You seem to prefer another referendum, as opposed to a General Election.

Can you then please confirm if it is true, that in a General election, you must be a British citizen, or a citizen of a British commonwealth country, or  bizarrely a citizen of the Irish republic.

But in a British referendum, to determine the direction of OUR country! citizens of every E.U. Country who happen to be living in the U.K will also be allowed to vote. 

 

Dear, oh dear. Don't you Brexiteers ever do any research and basic fact checking?

 

Let me do it for you by directing you to the UK government: Types of election, referendums, and who can vote  

 

To vote in a General Election you must:

• be registered to vote
• be 18 or over on the day of the election (‘polling day’)
• be a British, Irish or qualifying Commonwealth citizen
• be resident at an address in the UK (or a British citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)
• not be legally excluded from voting

To vote in a referendum you must:

• be registered to vote
• be 18 or over on the day of the referendum (‘polling day’)
• be a British, Irish or Commonwealth citizen
• be resident at an address in the UK or Gibraltar (or a British citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)
• not be legally excluded from voting

The referendum rules can be modified to exclude people. For example, in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum only Scottish residents could vote. But they cannot be modified to allow those not already entitled to vote to do so unless Parliament amends the Representation of the Peoples Act 

[7by7]

17 hours ago, Forethat said:

<snip>

Ehh, no. We don't get a "rebate". The word "rebate" is used to define the difference that is made up by our VAT base compared to our GDP. In real money we are STILL one of the highest contributors.

 I refer you to @bristolboy's explanation of how then rebate actually works; with properly researched links to confirm.

 

Why do you Brexiteers rarely do research and check facts before posting? Save you a lot of embarrassment if you did!

[sanemax]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I refer you to @bristolboy's explanation of how then rebate actually works; with properly researched links to confirm.

 

Why do you Brexiteers rarely do research and check facts before posting? Save you a lot of embarrassment if you did!

in the true sense of the word , it isnt actually a rebate ,because a rebate is overpaid money which is returned .  

THe UK doesn't relieve a rebate , it just gets a discount the following year .

  But he we are again , yourself once again suggesting that other posters are intellectually lacking and myself once again explaining to you what words mean

[Thairealist]

25 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Dear, oh dear. Don't you Brexiteers ever do any research and basic fact checking?

 

 

 

 So why are you so afraid of allowing the British people to decide at a General Election. Could it be that you know the result would not be to your liking.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Thairealist

[7by7]

14 minutes ago, sanemax said:

in the true sense of the word , it isnt actually a rebate ,because a rebate is overpaid money which is returned .  

THe UK doesn't relieve a rebate , it just gets a discount the following year .

  But he we are again , yourself once again suggesting that other posters are intellectually lacking and myself once again explaining to you what words mean

 Call it a rebate, correction, abatement even discount if you want to (as can be seen from @bristolboy's links, most people, including HMG and the EU, usually use rebate); the fact is @Forethat's attempted explanation of it and dismissal of it was completely incorrect.

 

Tell us, do you honestly believe that if we were to leave the EU and then in a few years time go back to the EU cap in hand pleading to be allowed back in that they would agree to us receiving this money, whatever you wish to call it, once more?

 

BTW,  I did not suggest that any one was intellectually lacking. What I did suggest was that two members should do some research and fact checking before posting in order to avoid embarrassment. The words "intellectually lacking" are yours, not mine.