Interpretation of the police order for extension of stay

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

let me know the result when telling that to I.O.   

I even don't know why trying to convince the I.O. ….. is like swimming upstream on a Colorado river 

Nah, retirement extension based on 800,000 left in an account is my preferred way.

[david555]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Nah, retirement extension based on 800,000 left in an account is my preferred way.

Smart man ????, just same as I do, as soon I saw the ball game played here by arriving 10 years ago , I took care that after first combination method I transferred the needed , instead of " ringing the bar bells"( like some of those now in problem), never having any problem , last ext. 5 minutes counter  job , including Bankletter a total of 30 minutes including the walk from KK bank to jomtien soi 5

 

PS: I understand in full it can be read the 2 ways …. but it depends which way the "powers" read it that counts 

[JimGant]

17 minutes ago, david555 said:

I understand in full it can be read the 2 ways …. but it depends which way the "powers" read it that counts 

Exactly. Case closed.

[Suradit69]

45 minutes ago, david555 said:

O.K. I give up …. you win  I.O. loose …..ext. granted now ? with a hundred wai from I.O. 

 

Understand my point now ?

 

Loose?

[Suradit69]

3 hours ago, Momofarang said:

 

You can't go against that. Thais just don't have the Maths to grasp what an average means.

 

After reading this thread you think farang are superior in that regard?

 

The problem is less to do with possessing the skill but the amount of time taken adding up 12 amounts and dividing by 12. Queues for marriage extensions would involve longer waits. 

 

Saying Thais don't possess some elementary skill is just mindless Thai bashing.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Suradit69

[sniggie]

With all the semantics of the interpretation of the definition of averages and monthly I think we are losing sight of the human tragedy that the OP has described. When the embassy letters were abandoned (only by three anglophone embassies as I keep mentioning) and the 65k per month method was introduced I doubt if the nit-picking detail that immigration offices seem to be applying to this method was considered. And all the time there is, sitting in the office, a senior officer who can waive all the rules when approached by the right person (agent).  For those of us who do meet the requirements it is a bit galling to have the details examined in such detail (bank codes, date each month etc.) I think I'm going to be OK next year but who knows...

 

As an aside, this post was about someone trying to gain an extension using the combination method. It wasn't about having the 800k in the bank so it's not helpful for posters to come onto the thread and say that's what they do.  There are people who can't do that and also people like me who could but object most strongly about being told what to do with 20k GBP of my money. 

[rabas]

On 9/10/2019 at 10:26 AM, geoffbezoz said:

.... or perhaps c) The literal English translation posted by them is incorrect, a point my wife seems to suggest based on her own interpretation of the Thai language police order.

On 9/10/2019 at 11:19 AM, ubonjoe said:

it is certainly not a translation error.

It states the same in the Thai version of clause 2.18 of the police orders going back as far as 2008 or befor

 

Does anyone have a reference to the Thai version of clause 2.18 referred to above? I looked but could not see it in the TV forum here  https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/981135-laws-regulations-police-orders-etc/

 

[tifino]

12 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

After reading this thread you think farang are superior in that regard?

 

The problem is less to do with possessing the skill but the amount of time taken adding up 12 amounts and dividing by 12. Queues for marriage extensions would involve longer waits. 

 

Saying Thais don't possess some elementary skill is just mindless Thai bashing.

a poor old aussie pensioner's mind bursts! 

 - because his superior mind calculates pension incomes, to the base13, not base12

 - as pensions by default are issued Fortnightly, not Monthly...

 - in most Months there are 2 deposits, sometimes 3

 

[ubonjoe]

30 minutes ago, rabas said:

Does anyone have a reference to the Thai version of clause 2.18 referred to above? I looked but could not see it in the TV forum here  https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/981135-laws-regulations-police-orders-etc/

Number 12 for the original police order (327/2557) and 18 for the amendment to 138/2557 for income.

[KeeTua]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

 

Does anyone have a reference to the Thai version of clause 2.18 referred to above? I looked but could not see it in the TV forum here  https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/981135-laws-regulations-police-orders-etc/

 

The Thai text:
หลักฐานแสดงการมีรายได้ของบิดา
มารดา หรือสามีซี่งเป็นคนต่างด้าวเฉลี่ย
ทั้งปีไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ ๔๐,๐๐๐ บาท

 

I broke the text apart to make more sense when Pasted this in Google Translate:
หลักฐานแสดงการมีรายได้
ของบิดามารดาหรือสามีซี่งเป็นคนต่างด้าว
เฉลี่ยทั้งปี
ไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ ๔๐,๐๐๐ บาท

 

Proof of income
Of parents or husbands who are foreigners
Annual average
Not less than 40,000 baht per month

[khunpon]

Can someone please clarify what "..throughout a year..." actually means. Does it mean 12 months prior to the month you apply for the extension (i.e the month you apply is not included) OR 12 months including the month you apply? 

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, khunpon said:

Can someone please clarify what "..throughout a year..." actually means. Does it mean 12 months prior to the month you apply for the extension (i.e the month you apply is not included) OR 12 months including the month you apply? 

It means 12 months of transfers when you apply.

The most recent one could be from the month before the day you apply. No need for one in the same month unless one was done.

[khunpon]

Many thanks @ubonjoe. So, if one applies for an extension say on 20th September 2019, then he needs to submit 12 months of Bank statements from 1st Sep 2018 till 31st Aug 2019, showing 12 transfers. Is that Ok?

[scotsman]

So if you get 12 months Transfers of 40k on your next application they will send your application on to be processed or will they come up with another ploy to say no? 

This year they also had a order in Jan 2019 that told us there would be a grace period as we could not get 12 transfers this year. They only asked for it in late Dec so some people only had 9 transfers.   I was refused with 11 transfers so I can't trust them not to find another ploy or trick to refuse to send it on next time but I will sure give it a try. 

I am sorry for the poster that ended without his extenstion I do hope you get it sorted out.

Regards

Scotsman 

[rumak]

5 hours ago, Momofarang said:

You can't go against that. Thais just don't have the Maths to grasp what an average means.

BTW Thais are not the only ones, at Garmin they have developers (of connect.garmin[dotcom]) who think that the average speed of all activities is the average of average speeds. When, of course it should be (total distance/total/time).

Another brilliant generalization denigrating all Thais....

[rabas]

2 hours ago, KeeTua said:

The Thai text:
หลักฐานแสดงการมีรายได้ของบิดา
มารดา หรือสามีซี่งเป็นคนต่างด้าวเฉลี่ย
ทั้งปีไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ ๔๐,๐๐๐ บาท

 

I broke the text apart to make more sense when Pasted this in Google Translate:
หลักฐานแสดงการมีรายได้
ของบิดามารดาหรือสามีซี่งเป็นคนต่างด้าว
เฉลี่ยทั้งปี
ไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ ๔๐,๐๐๐ บาท

 

Proof of income
Of parents or husbands who are foreigners
Annual average
Not less than 40,000 baht per month

Thanks. I asked my niece, who is a lawyer at an accounting firm, what is the precise meaning of  เฉลี่ยทั้งปี  ไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ 40000 บาท (annual average not less than 40000 baht per month)

 

She said it definitely means 12 regular monthly payments that can be more or less than 40000 but their monthly average over the specified period must be 40000 baht or more.  It's not a term used for random payments throughout the year.

 

It doesn't imply each transaction must be 40000 or more.  The other point is the first word lakthan หลักฐาน commonly means evidence, a bit weaker than proof, so you can also argue that with the IO on your way out....

[brianthainess]

19 hours ago, john terry1001 said:

That's just an interpretation you choose to use.

 

During the year would refer to just one (or more) points in a year.

 

Throughout the year means covering the whole of the year. 

 

Throughout the year an average 40K BAHT Monthly means exactly that. If they meant each (and every) month that's what they would have said, but they didn't did they. That wording in the retirement version was changed for the marriage/dependent version. Ask yourself why they made the change.

 

you are repeatedly changing the wording and meaning to read what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

????What like religious nuts and their bible or whatever book they use. just saying.

[Suradit69]

On September 11, 2019 at 11:23 AM, AAArdvark said:

It would require the IO to add all and then divide by 12.

They could always hand the farang a calculator and have him show how he enters each deposit shown in his bank book, adds them up ... Possibly 12 deposits or even 24 or 36 for those with several income sources per month ... and then divides by 12. Best to do it multiple times until the same answer is obtained twice.

 

Watching the farang applicant turn puce with loss of face would be entertaining , but it would probably mean only a few applicants would be processed per hour.

[gk10002000]

On 9/10/2019 at 11:11 PM, john terry1001 said:

Clause 2.18 actually says:

 

Throughout the year an average income is not less than 40k baht monthly

 

Can you please show where 'they like to see a steady income' is written in the Police Order

 

For a retirement extension, a minimum of 65k baht must be deposited in a Thai bank every month, however, with a marriage extension that wording has been changed to 'Throughout the year an average income...........' .If it meant must....every month They would simply have used the same wording for both extensions and just added the work income options for the marriage option.

 

 

 

 

So the marriage extension wording is different than the retirement extension wording?  Many other threads have shown, the Thais for the Retirement extension definitely are only accepting monthly transfers of 65K, no averaging allowed, no pay 3x65k or 195K every three months etc. 

[gk10002000]

On 9/11/2019 at 12:02 AM, jacko45k said:

Nah, retirement extension based on 800,000 left in an account is my preferred way.

Easier from a visa and extension point of view no doubt about that.  But I would much prefer to keep 800k in my USA investment accounts earning dividends and interest. Additionally there is always the possibility of a money grab by the Thais, bank "errors" etc.  Just sleeping with one eye opened when discussing putting 800k baht or about $26,000 USD into a foreign country.

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Additionally there is always the possibility of a money grab by the Thais, bank "errors" etc.  Just sleeping with one eye opened when discussing putting 800k baht or about $26,000 USD into a foreign country.

I would expect that to be more likely in Brazil, Argentina or even the UK! Or any country where taxation is crippling and they need yet still more money. I see it as a cost of living here, more agreeable than paying out 500,000 baht that you will never see again whatever the banks decide. 

 

Being invested requires sleeping with an eye opened these days. 

[graemeaylward]

Has the OP or anyone contacted the Immigration hotline about this? Seems to me that the law/ Police Order is quite clear. Surely this needs to be taken to the highest government authority as a matter of urgency as I am sure that there are many who are in the same predicament now that some embassies no longer issue letters!


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[mtls2005]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:55 PM, rabas said:

Thanks. I asked my niece, who is a lawyer at an accounting firm, what is the precise meaning of  เฉลี่ยทั้งปี  ไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ 40000 บาท (annual average not less than 40000 baht per month)

 

She said it definitely means 12 regular monthly payments that can be more or less than 40000 but their monthly average over the specified period must be 40000 baht or more.  It's not a term used for random payments throughout the year.

 

It doesn't imply each transaction must be 40000 or more.  The other point is the first word lakthan หลักฐาน commonly means evidence, a bit weaker than proof, so you can also argue that with the IO on your way out....

 

Thanks.

 

I was wrong in my opinion about the result of the translation.

 

I assumed that each month's QFT had to be above 40,000. This was incorrect.

 

For an ext of stay - retirement there is a requirement that each month's QFT be individually equal to or greater than 65,000.

 

I do understand the meaning of the word 'average'.

 

FWIW, I did get my qualifying foreign transfer letter from Bangkok Bank (Head Office) this week, I go for my extension next week.

 

The person who composed this letter, while I waited, did say that they have a new format which has been approved by Immigration (grain of salt here obviously). Previous letters detailed each month's QFT as an individual line item. The new format letter simply has one line.

 

Period        Foreign Currency       Total (in foreign currency)    Total (in THB)

 

 

In my case the period is 11/01/2019 - 05/09/2019. I only started making transfers in January (the 11th), in previous years I transferred larger sums in once or twice a year.

 

 

I'm just hoping the IO uses the lenient nine months, rather than twelve.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by mtls2005

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

So the average monthly transfer is easy for the IO to calculate, and (presumably) a single month's transfer could be below 65,000 THB (ret). My average is 68,659 per month. Each month's QFT was greater than 65,000 THB.

 

A average income is not a allowed for extensions based upon retirement. If your monthly income is less than 65k baht you can use a combination of income and money in the bank to reach a total of 800k baht.

It is only allowed for extensions based upon marriage and the primary reason it is allowed is that a person can be working here to earn the income. And no combination of income and money in the bank is allowed.

[mtls2005]

19 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

A average income is not a allowed for extensions based upon retirement. If your monthly income is less than 65k baht you can use a combination of income and money in the bank to reach a total of 800k baht.

It is only allowed for extensions based upon marriage and the primary reason it is allowed is that a person can be working here to earn the income. And no combination of income and money in the bank is allowed.

 

Thanks.

 

I see that wording now, "...Evidence showing income not less than 65,000 monthly"

 

With my current balance, this combination method would allow me to qualify even without leniency, if it comes to that?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by mtls2005

[john terry1001]

8 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

So the marriage extension wording is different than the retirement extension wording?  Many other threads have shown, the Thais for the Retirement extension definitely are only accepting monthly transfers of 65K, no averaging allowed, no pay 3x65k or 195K every three months etc. 

That's exactly what I am saying. With a retirement extension you must put the 65k into your Thai bank each and every month, but the wording on the marriage extension is different, with the word average added to mean although you should transfer money each month the actual amount can vary above and below the 40k, PROVIDING, over the year, the total amount equates to more than 40k per month.

[UKresonant]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:55 PM, rabas said:

Thanks. I asked my niece, who is a lawyer at an accounting firm, what is the precise meaning of  เฉลี่ยทั้งปี  ไม่น้อยกว่าเดือนละ 40000 บาท (annual average not less than 40000 baht per month)

 

She said it definitely means 12 regular monthly payments that can be more or less than 40000 but their monthly average over the specified period must be 40000 baht or more.  It's not a term used for random payments throughout the year.

 

It doesn't imply each transaction must be 40000 or more.  The other point is the first word lakthan หลักฐาน commonly means evidence, a bit weaker than proof, so you can also argue that with the IO on your way out....

That's the only way I can see it would work, the banks could throw a spanner in the works, or change their SWIFT sending arrangements causing a slight delay etc.  I'm currently sending one of my pensions to a Thai bank, manually, monthly, approx one year after it was paid, so for October it will be 987.67 GBP (net) 5 GBP evaporates in transit for fees, so at a TT rate of 37.17879 (today),  we have 36534 THB. The first payment in a sequence was a bit higher, ,so start of October that would give an Average of 38889 THB/month. However using the exchange rate of when I received the payments in my UK account, it would give an average of 45294 THB a month.

 

So using the average method, as per your niece's kind opinion, it would be potentially workable, as a slight adjustment could correct the average on a next payment.????

 

If totally rigid 40k THB every month, unlikely to be practical, too many things outside of an individuals control, to many variables! If sending THB some have also posted about wrong codes, I don't run any Thai banks, so that would not be in my control either. ????

 

We'll see what it's like at the end of 2020????

 

OP did you have to pay the application fee to find out they have no useful product that they could supply, or can you find out what version of service they provide before formal application?