EU Council will be too late to negotiate Brexit deal: French source

[OneMoreFarang]

Please I would love to see from any of the Brexiters here a proposal for a deal which the majority of the UK citizens would agree to and which is compatible with the EU laws. Does such a deal exist?

[sammieuk1]

16 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

That was in 2008 under a Labour government.

2007 - further rises in pension age to 66, 67, and then 68 introduced
The Labour Government passed a new law to raise state pension age to 66 between April 2024 and April 2026, then to 67 between April 2034 and April 2036 and to 68 between April 2044 and April 2046.

 

May 2010 - further change promised
In opposition the Conservative Party had announced it would raise pension age for men and women more "quickly" than existing plans. After it came to power with the Liberal Democrats in May 2010 this pledge was repeated in the programme for government set out in the Coalition Agreement.????

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Please I would love to see from any of the Brexiters here a proposal for a deal which the majority of the UK citizens would agree to and which is compatible with the EU laws. Does such a deal exist?

Stop paying the membership fees.

I think most leavers would be happy enough with that.

 

But you've sort of hedged your bets as it's only the voters that get counted, not the 'majority of citizens' or even the 'majority of the electorate'. We couldn't even get a government agreed by the majority of the UK citizens, only 20% of them voted for the Conservatives last election.

Edited September 20, 2019 by BritManToo

[david555]

4 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

Its been a wild ride this past couple of weeks in UK Brexit politics. Speaking completely neutrally (I don't care about the outcome anymore) I have gone from thinking we are definitely going out, to we are definitely going to have an election and pro-leave will win to now being of the opinion that remain is now a contender at least. 

If labour and the lib dems can capitalize on making Boris look a supreme dud, their combined vote plus the SNP is now a real threat to Brexit (through a new referendum at least). 

"If labour and the lib dems can capitalize on making Boris look a supreme dud,"

 

No need for Labour & Liberals ….. Boris can do that whole alone perfectly by himself ????…. it is almost completed 

[sammieuk1]

5 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Please I would love to see from any of the Brexiters here a proposal for a deal which the majority of the UK citizens would agree to and which is compatible with the EU laws. Does such a deal exist?

No yes but if maybe with a touch of undecided???? 

[vogie]

Just now, david555 said:

The "I am not emotionally attached to the backstop " I read by U.K. side as a narrow opening …. but is lost in cultural translation (just as we struggle sometimes with English understandings ..)as he meant  that even he don't like the backstop …, but nothing else better is there .

 

Tat is all he meant ….. I understand the desperation on U.K. side to grab for any driftwood to not drown 

There will be plenty of driftwood for EU citizens to cling on to.

 

[david555]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

There will be plenty of driftwood for EU citizens to cling on to.

 

Yes I see the raft keeps together , 1 detached on his own,  lol , thanks for the heads up  5555

[nauseus]

I've just posted the below in the Farage Says topic but I'll add it here too as it seems relevant:

 

As this is about what Farage is supposed to have said, I had a listen in to his LBC show last night. Most of it was about Cameron but the last segment included a soundbite from Juncker, who had had a meeting with Johnson. Juncker mentioned a "positive" meeting and that a deal was possible. Analysis/comment by Farage and Theo Usherwood highlighted that this is quite a shift from the previous and consistent hard EU line. Juncker had acknowledged that a no-deal would have "catastrophic consequences" for Britain AND the EU. I'm not sure what Tusk has to say, he's gone pretty quiet lately! 

 

So the EU stance seems to have changed significantly and quickly. Of course it may be a diversion down a dead-end street but several large EU industries must have put pressure on their own governments, and the EU itself, especially as economic recession is high risk to the EU at the moment.

 

I don't expect any new agreement to be too much different to the existing one and I'm not sure if it would be able to pass through parliament. If all this is true, I just hope Boris can secure several key changes and not just a backstop alternative. 

 

I tend to believe this as the pound ticked up a bit more (against a strong dollar) again this morning.

 

We will see. 

[tomacht8]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

There will be plenty of driftwood for EU citizens to cling on to.

 

is interesting that there is england on it and not UK.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, tomacht8 said:

is interesting that there is england on it and not UK.

Russian cartoonist - what do you expect?

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, Victornoir said:

You have no argument except hatred and insult.

Fortunately, you do not represent the British as a whole

I think you probably have a comprehension problem. I understand that English is probably not your first language so I will not hold this against you.

 

Maybe you could clarify which of my opinions you disagree with, then we can have a logical, civilized discussion without resorting to throwing around childish labels like "hater".

[david555]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

I've just posted the below in the Farage Says topic but I'll add it here too as it seems relevant:

 

As this is about what Farage is supposed to have said, I had a listen in to his LBC show last night. Most of it was about Cameron but the last segment included a soundbite from Juncker, who had had a meeting with Johnson. Juncker mentioned a "positive" meeting and that a deal was possible. Analysis/comment by Farage and Theo Usherwood highlighted that this is quite a shift from the previous and consistent hard EU line. Juncker had acknowledged that a no-deal would have "catastrophic consequences" for Britain AND the EU. I'm not sure what Tusk has to say, he's gone pretty quiet lately! 

 

So the EU stance seems to have changed significantly and quickly. Of course it may be a diversion down a dead-end street but several large EU industries must have put pressure on their own governments, and the EU itself, especially as economic recession is high risk to the EU at the moment.

 

I don't expect any new agreement to be too much different to the existing one and I'm not sure if it would be able to pass through parliament. If all this is true, I just hope Boris can secure several key changes and not just a backstop alternative. 

 

I tend to believe this as the pound ticked up a bit more (against a strong dollar) again this morning.

 

We will see. 

yes ….also DUP seems to shift seriously to accept some differences with the main U.K. Island …..so that explaining maybe Junckers "positivity "…? A kind of a border in the Irish sea would solve the backstop ????

Edited September 20, 2019 by david555

[JonnyF]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Please I would love to see from any of the Brexiters here a proposal for a deal which the majority of the UK citizens would agree to and which is compatible with the EU laws. Does such a deal exist?

I think the UK leaving the EU and signing a mutually beneficial trade deal is the most sensible way forward. 

 

By leaving, I mean leave completely (Customs Union, Single market, ECJ jurisdiction etc.).

 

Trade continues (keeping Remainers happy as they put the economy above everything else) and Leavers are happy as we have full sovereignty.

 

I really don't think it's complicated if there is good will on both sides.

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

There will be plenty of driftwood for EU citizens to cling on to.

 

Now that is a Brexit I can get behind...

[david555]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I think the UK leaving the EU and signing a mutually beneficial trade deal is the most sensible way forward. 

 

By leaving, I mean leave completely (Customs Union, Single market, ECJ jurisdiction etc.).

 

Trade continues (keeping Remainers happy as they put the economy above everything else) and Leavers are happy as we have full sovereignty.

 

I really don't think it's complicated if there is good will on both sides.

 

 

 

Can do same with WTA then with all those exclusions ….(here we go again …!)

As warned by E.U. after a no deal ALL those former difficult things come back on the table ...

Edited September 20, 2019 by david555

[billd766]

15 hours ago, bangrak said:

Allow me to add, there is/was/has been a deal, negotiated between the UK Government and the EU authorities, which was agreed on by both sides, end of story. ...Was it not that the leave camp 'traitors' inside the Conservative party (yes, these are the real ones!) voted against the deal negotiated by their own Conservative Government! This should not, never, be forgotten!

Firstly it was NOT a deal negotiated by the government but by the negotiating team led by Mrs May. It would only become a deal when voted on in parliament and that was rejected 3 times by parliament. It was never approved or passed into law in the UK.

 

So it was only the rebel Tories that rejected it 3 time according to you.

 

Perhaps Wikipedia is also wrong then.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit_withdrawal_agreement

 

The agreement was endorsed by the leaders of the 27 remaining EU countries[2] and the UK Government led by Prime Minister Theresa May, but faced opposition in the UK parliament, whose approval was necessary for ratification. (Ratification by the European Parliament is also required but (as of September 2019) remains to be sought.) On 15 January 2019, the House of Commons rejected the withdrawal agreement by a vote of 432 to 202.[3] The Commons rejected the Agreement again on 12 March 2019, on a vote of 391 to 242,[4] and rejected a third time of 29 March 2019 by 344 votes to 286.

[MRToMRT]

Latest on Sophie Ridge (Sky News) - in interview with JC Juncker yesterday he openly states he thinks a deal is possible and that the UK government delivered documents (proposal) to EU last night.

 

Could Boris pull it off?  Even if not he will have a stick to whack Labour and Lib Dems with in an election if it came to fruition and they voted against it.

 

Interesting times

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Victornoir said:

You are right to hate the Europeans.

And if you knew what they really think of you and your brexit, you would hate them even more.

IMHO I don't think the Brits hate the Europeans at all. What they do hate is the monstrous EU organisation that the EEC morphed into.

[Forethat]

8 minutes ago, david555 said:

Can do same with WTA then with all those exclusions ….(here we go again …!)

As warned by E.U. after a no deal ALL those former difficult things come back on the table ...

Somehow I don't think the WTA (Women's Tennis Association) have much to do with this. 

 

WTO...

[david555]

7 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Somehow I don't think the WTA (Women's Tennis Association) have much to do with this. 

 

WTO...

My  mistake WTO it must be 

Edited September 20, 2019 by david555

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

It was not the EU who said it would be an easy deal. It was the Leave campaigners.

Yet another lie they told to add to all the others. 

But it was the Tory Remainers who were in  control for the last 3 years and they promised that the UK would leave the EU in the time period with a good deal. Mrs May also promised that a no deal was better than a bad deal.

 

She lied for 3 years.

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

Sorry wrong post

 

So the people who were negotiators are the people to blame and not the Leavers who had no control over it.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

So you're saying he lied when 3 years ago he said he and his cronies were working on Plan B?

 

Or is it that 3 years and 57 days and they're still working on it?

 

More likely their plan was to leave with no-deal all the time.

Was Boris in power with the ability to do something about it?

 

Why didn't the government under Mrs May have a plan B ready and waiting?

[CaptainNemo]

16 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

Latest on Sophie Ridge (Sky News) - in interview with JC Juncker yesterday he openly states he thinks a deal is possible and that the UK government delivered documents (proposal) to EU last night.

Juncker and Barnier have been heavily criticised in the EU parliament for putting EU jobs at risk with their "negotiation" strategy. A German MP spoke, and Germany is facing recession. It's not a voice the EU archons can easily ignore. Germany is concerned that an unfriendly departure of the UK could have blowback.

[david555]

(Junckers positivity ?…..)

Lisa O'Carroll in Dublin

@lisaocarroll

Wed 18 Sep 2019 21.18 BST

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/18/arlene-foster-signals-dup-shift-on-northern-ireland-border-issue

The Democratic Unionist party’s leader, Arlene Foster, has signalled it is ready to do a Brexit deal, indicating for the first time a willingness to accept a bespoke solution for Northern Ireland.

She was speaking just hours before she held an “unplanned” meeting with the Irish taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, amid signs of a Brexit thaw between Belfast and Dublin.

Edited September 20, 2019 by david555

[JonnyF]

47 minutes ago, MRToMRT said:

Latest on Sophie Ridge (Sky News) - in interview with JC Juncker yesterday he openly states he thinks a deal is possible and that the UK government delivered documents (proposal) to EU last night.

 

Could Boris pull it off?  Even if not he will have a stick to whack Labour and Lib Dems with in an election if it came to fruition and they voted against it.

 

Interesting times

I hope not.

 

I said months ago that the backstop was a clever distraction. "Hey everyone, look over here at this terrible backstop, no need to look over there at all the other terrible parts of the WA."

 

Then at the final hour, the EU can pretend to have compromised by removing the backstop which was never required in the first place. 

 

A good negotiating tactic, I just hope the UK doesn't fall for it and makes a clean break.

[CaptainNemo]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Please I would love to see from any of the Brexiters here a proposal for a deal which the majority of the UK citizens would agree to and which is compatible with the EU laws. Does such a deal exist?

Well, to handle your hedging, espcially the "compatible with EU laws bit", let's look at what the public appear to say:

 

"Some polls show no deal as the most preferred Brexit option. Others show remaining. It all depends which options respondents are surveyed about and how the question is asked."

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-public-want-no-deal/

 

Anthony Wells (IMO a LibDem and pro-EU person), concludes that 44% v 34%  prefer no deal and WTO

A ComRes poll found a similar result.

Prof Curtice's analysis of this and other polls

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/are-voters-ready-to-leave-with-no-deal/

concludes that the public is polarised between No Deal/WTO and 2nd Referendum, but that No Deal/WTO is the larger of the polarised groups.

 

So in answer to your question, a simple majority for no deal/wto is consistently there, but the opposition to it is a large and vociferous minority of about a third of the population at best.

This more or less maps onto the way the referendum was going prior to the politicisation of the Jo Cox murder, where Remain was heading south of 40%, as the less passionate 30% of "swing voters" in the middle responded to Project Fear and moved towards Remain, but not enough. This has been true since about March, as the graph shows:

 

[candide]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

There will be plenty of driftwood for EU citizens to cling on to.

 

Well, we know how it ends up...

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, candide said:

Well, we know how it ends up...

EU flag must have drifted away! ????

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

I think the UK leaving the EU and signing a mutually beneficial trade deal is the most sensible way forward. 

 

By leaving, I mean leave completely (Customs Union, Single market, ECJ jurisdiction etc.).

 

Trade continues (keeping Remainers happy as they put the economy above everything else) and Leavers are happy as we have full sovereignty.

 

I really don't think it's complicated if there is good will on both sides.

Ok.

And with different laws, custom, etc. where would you put the border?

Or do you imagine that without any border there wouldn't be smugglers, people who cross the border illegally, etc.?

[OneMoreFarang]

21 minutes ago, CaptainNemo said:

Well, to handle your hedging, espcially the "compatible with EU laws bit", let's look at what the public appear to say:

 

"Some polls show no deal as the most preferred Brexit option. Others show remaining. It all depends which options respondents are surveyed about and how the question is asked."

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-public-want-no-deal/

 

Anthony Wells (IMO a LibDem and pro-EU person), concludes that 44% v 34%  prefer no deal and WTO

A ComRes poll found a similar result.

Prof Curtice's analysis of this and other polls

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/are-voters-ready-to-leave-with-no-deal/

concludes that the public is polarised between No Deal/WTO and 2nd Referendum, but that No Deal/WTO is the larger of the polarised groups.

 

So in answer to your question, a simple majority for no deal/wto is consistently there, but the opposition to it is a large and vociferous minority of about a third of the population at best.

This more or less maps onto the way the referendum was going prior to the politicisation of the Jo Cox murder, where Remain was heading south of 40%, as the less passionate 30% of "swing voters" in the middle responded to Project Fear and moved towards Remain, but not enough. This has been true since about March, as the graph shows:

 

Interesting.

 

So lets imagine the UK and EU separate without a deal. And then?

Will they always trade according to WTO rules?

What about the EU citizens who currently live in the UK?

And what about the UK citizens who live in the EU?

Should the UK citizens in the EU keep their rights? Or should the EU just tell them to go home within 3 month?

 

The problem with all those little details is that they just don't go away. There is no clean break - even if people want it.